connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory

[[email protected]]

In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
| On Aug 20, 4:19 pm, [email protected] wrote:
|> In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
|>
|> |> >But would he know exactly what gas these bubble contain
|> |>
|> |> He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb
|> |> demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is
|> |> Hydogen Sulphide"http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690...
|> |
|> | True, despite your usual quoting out of context. Batteries can and
|> | will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates.
|>
|> How high a charge rate are you talking about? Specific numbers, please.
|>
|> --
|> |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
|> | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
|> | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
|> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |
|
| Any thing I tell you, you will say is not true. So, with that in mind
| you can search;
|
| Intelec2001.pdf
|
| Here is the abstract
|
| "Abstract
| This investigation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in VRLA
| cells produced three major results. First, VRLA
| cells produce significant amounts of H2S even at
| normal float voltages. Second, the lead dioxide in
| the positive plates absorbs much of this H2S. Third,
| this ?H2S cycle? in VRLA cells results in an
| equilibrium concentration level of no more than 1
| ppm of H2S in the gas space of a typical cell. The
| data further suggests that even this low amount
| may decline over time."
|
| This article is several pages and is quite detailed.

For the benefit of others, this is the paper I found:

http://www.philadelphiascientific.com/Intelec2001.pdf

Several keyword based searches did not turn up this document on the first page
of 100 results from Google. That could be due to the flood of pages that
described H2S detectors that were battery operated, and thus had the keywords
being searched.

When you find important articles/documents/papers, try to save the full URL.
If there is any doubt about it, at least the actual contents can be used in
another search to see how many other places it might be found at. What I do
is save such things in a file path that is the same as the URL starting at
the hostname. That way, if I need to cite an article, I can put http:// in
front and give the original URL.

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:

|> No, actually I'm not setting out to simply mimic what someone else does.
|> I had something in mind that no one has apparent ever done before, but
|> with some good information I've found here (not what you've given, as
|> your info just chalks up one more vote against paralleling anything),
|> I've modified by ideas. I haven't given out what these ideas are, yet.
|> I might. Or I might not. It will be a new thread if I do.
|
| Chances are it has been done before and discarded as pointless.

Maybe so. But apparently not by you. I'd think you'd remember it if you
did. You'd be able to say what you actually tried, and what degree of
effect it had (even if none at all).

I'm not yet going to describe my ideas because they are too numerous in
combinations of doing things. I believe they will work. But they may
not be ultimately practical. For example, elements of the design may be
subject to excess failure (of a circuit, for example), or excess maintenance.

And FYI, most of the ideas actually do _not_ involve parallel batteries.

 

[[email protected]]

| On 20 Aug 2008 06:44:27 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
|
|>Please keep the language clean. The computers here can be accessed by
|>kids as young as 6. I block porn. Do I need to start blocking you, too?
|
|
| If retarded parents are letting their kids onto Usenet, then the kid and
| the parent deserve every f****** thing they get for subjecting children
| to adult forums where folks do things such as the use of profanity.

This is not supposed to be a porn forum. Maybe the political people and ISPs
that have been trying to shut down a lot of Usenet are, at least in part,
doing this because of the recent (within the last few years) influx of potty
mouth posters.


| Block away, you f****** idiot. You'd be better off learning how to
| block the kids from media they have no business in at that age.

Every scientific/technical forum should not have potty mouth talking going on.
Some forums, such as certain medical ones, might have topis some parents do
prefer to keep away from their kids until a certain age. THESE forums are
not such topics.


| That IS why they call it parentage. YOU are supposed to regulate what
| they get access to, not regulate one group or member of the group because
| you are too goddamned lazy to block the kid from access completely.

I should not have to restrict kids from a _technical_ forum just because it
has adult members. Being an adult does NOT mean one has to use the language
commonly labeled for "adults only". We would be better off banning such
potty mouth people from these forums, than banning kids too young to post
anything by dumb questions, who might otherwise learn.

FYI, I was building electrical circuits at age 6. Had there been an internet
back then, a forum like this is what I would want to be reading.


| There are 43,000 groups, and you actually think that your individual
| filter is going to keep a kid from seeing cussing on Usenet.
|
| I had you pegged as being a bit smarter than that.

I had you pegged as not being an idiot that makes things worse.

Sure, kids will see some cussing at times. What they don't need to see is it
being a normal sequence of conversation. What they see being _routinely_ used
is what they learn to do.

So refrain from being an ... you can figure out what I would say, as it begins
with the letter "a" and has 7 letters ending in "e".

I remember back when the internet was a civil place, before people like you
became an infestation.

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
|>
|> |>
|> > | Why don't you just get a good stable setup working,
|> > | before trying to design something new?
|>
|> > You mean, just do what someone else does, the way they do it, first, and
|> > see if that succeeds or fails?
|>
|> No, I mean that it's best to build a known practical
|> design, before attempting to create a modification
|> to that design. The point being that, done properly,
|> it will work/succeed. It is only your modification
|> where there is a need to "see if that succeeds or
|> fails". (See below)
|>
|> I'm beginning to get the impression that you actually
|> have no intention of building a viable system, and that
|> this is a purely "intellectual" endeavor, for your personal
|> entertainment.
|>
|> If that's the case: then the ideas you presented in your
|> last post display a great lack of understanding, of the
|> basic physics involved, and can't work.
|>
|> Luck;
|> Ken
|
| You will find that there is nothing "intellectual" about his attempt
| to find someone to tell him it is okay to do stupid things. Also a
| fair bet that "he" is in fact a sock puppet of either wayne or ron.

You sure are big on assumptions about things you know nothing about.

 

[[email protected]]

Looking at an internal gas chart there is no H2S evolved in an overcharge
situation or a heavy discharge situation. There is O, H, CO2 and a dab of N
from the cell but no H2S.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0101/Nelson-0101.html

et alia

I'm sure you folks from alt.engineering.electrical mean well, and that
you're knowledgeable about your field. But, no offense intended, you
obviously aren't specialists at generating home energy. Here at
alt.energy.homepower, where we've been taught that: "Half of design is
intuition the rest is experiance"
http://groups.google.co.in/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/4cb0bb3464a601ef,
we have our very own resident expirt, the premier Usenet authority on
all things including baterees and asstrofizicks, who happens to have
invented the famous 3.5X ETECIF (energy to energy conversion
inefficiency factor): "A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1d9839d367a1123d.
Again, I'm not trying to talk down to the
intuition/experiance-challenged among you who've had no reason to
learn about the 3.5X ETECIF until now.

Our eckspert also has the impressive experiance of generating a whole
kWh per day, enabling him to discover and teach the most deeply hidden
secrets of bataries such as: "A lead acid battery stores a chemical
reaction. Therefor every time you charge/ discharge the battery you
use up some of the chemicals involved. Also the greater the depth of
discharge the more chemical used = fewer cycles. When the chemical is
gone the battery is dead."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/b3aa7e848b788794
Considering this new information about our sage's undeniable level of
expirteeze, you surely must now agree with his proclamation of: "When
charging, >the< gas given off is Hydogen Sulphide"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690f85db

If any of you electronic types would like to learn more about the
specialty of home power, start with the manifesto here
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm and maybe your best and
brightest can someday become "power consultants".

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

|
| |>
|> | No, I mean that it's best to build a known practical
|> | design, before attempting to create a modification
|> | to that design. The point being that, done properly,
|> | it will work/succeed. It is only your modification
|> | where there is a need to "see if that succeeds or
|> | fails". (See below)
|> |
|> | I'm beginning to get the impression that you actually
|> | have no intention of building a viable system, and that
|> | this is a purely "intellectual" endeavor, for your personal
|> | entertainment.
|>
|> The impression is off. I intend to be a viable system. But I do intent
|> to
|> jump directly to a different design (which has already changed as a result
|> of info others have posted in this thread).
|>
|
| Well, good luck with that, and since you have no more
| to provide to a discussion of the subject, farewell.

I'm here trying to get information. Some people have provided some.
Maybe they will provide more.


| If you ever have any actual practical information to
| impart someday, let us know. If you should ever be
| willing to disclose this "different design", there might be
| something to discuss.

Sure thing. If I come up with something better, I will. In the mean
time I will continue my research and study, which does include talking
about it.


| For those of us in alt.energy.homepower we don't construct
| systems that employ battery banks strictly for the learning
| experience. (In fact I suspect most of us would rather avoid

Neither do I. That's why I'm doing the learning ahead of the design and
construction.


| as many "learning experiences" as possible, as they are often
| painful.) It seems that you want to design "something different"
| based on our experience, but aren't interested in acquiring any
| of your own. You expect us to provide answers to suit your
| needs, but we just like to examine subjects of interest to us.

So are you saying I should skip the learning and construct every possible
design I come up with?


| By "learn as much of the science as I can", you mean seeing
| what NewsGroup posters have to say about a subject? To be

Sure. Maybe they know about actual science, or know where they have seen
it before.


| fare, I should inform you that we seldom cover as much "of
| the science" as you expect. Some things get left out of the
| discussions. But if you actually build something that works,
| you would have to have learned a few more things, related to
| the issue, than what might appear in a dozen threads.

I'll learn as much as I can before I build anything.


| Then there is the fact that actual projects get a lot of support
| from interested posters ("z" and his pelton wheel micro-hydro
| project for example.) If or when, you actually are trying to design
| or construct something real, try posting again. (Hopefully not too
| many will remember this run around.)

I'll continue to post when _either_ I have some useful information to offer,
or have a question soliciting useful information. For the latter, I have
learned that most posts in response fall into these categories:

1. people providing actual useful information
2. people intending well, but provide useless information
3. people providing useless information but really don't care
4. detractors that just like to post drivel
5. responses to any of the above

 

[[email protected]]

Been there, done it.

You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your
techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical
pointless Ghinius BS.

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

| Hmm.. lets see what I can drag up.
|
| http://www.cix.ie/category/ups/
|
| Two 200KVA UPS's in parallel to share the load. The battery bank for each of
| those UPS's has 60 batteries. They are configured as two banks of 30
| batteries. (two series banks of 30 batteries, in parallel.)
|
|
| APC also likes paralleling batteries.
| Here is a wiring diagram for extending the uptime on one of their UPS's.
|
| http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z8LB4_R0_EN.pdf
|
| (And if you notice, they even have fuses in each parallel string. Like most
| series parallel strings should have.)

1. I would not have thought to put the per-string fuse in the middle of the
string. Do you know a reason that would be better?

2. This is the emergency power scenario (where batteries sit at float most
of their lives, and occaisionally see a possible deep discharge followed
by a long period of time to slowly recharge and float again. Maybe some
on-grid home systems are intended for similar service. The off-grid home
systems would be expected to have daily cycles to some minor level of
discharge, and the occaisional long term deeper discharge, with likely a
period of slow recharging across a few up and down cycles.


| Here is another one.
|
| http://www.georator.com/ProductUninterruptiblePowerSupplies.php
|
| The battery bank that goes with each inverter .
|
| http://www.georator.com/images/downloads/T3UPS Battery Bank.jpg
|
| Has two parallel strings of batteries.

I note that these are gel-cell batteries. This would not be what the off-grid
home would want to use.

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
| On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
|
|>On Aug 20, 2:50 pm, [email protected] wrote:
|>> In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
|
|>> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries
|>> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently.
|
|>Been there, done it.
|
| You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your
| techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical
| pointless Ghinius BS.

Why should he share them. They're just classic legacy setups he learned about
in his class. He expects everyone else to know these already. He's obviously
not an engineer or researcher. He's just an installer. If all I wanted was a
classic legacy setup, who knows, he might be a fine contractor to do that job.
I would not wanting him to design anything out of the ordinary.

 

[daestrom]

I'd be interested in what effect would come of more frequent, but
short term, charging pulses at an equalization level, done only when
the batteries are topped off at 100%. Instead of 1-3 hours, maybe a
couple minutes, then wait
an hour, then two more minutes, and repeat this maybe a couple times
each
day when there has been some recent period of less than 100% charge.

One issue with equalizer charges (besides the temperature rise) is that the
current tends to break down the water into H2 and O2. So at the end of
equalizer charges when the voltage is allowed to rise, there is more H2
given off than at any other time.

This also means you use somewhat more water to maintain the proper level in
the cells.

daestrom

 

[[email protected]]

| I seem to recall a problem with batteries on submarines if they come in
| contact with sea water there can be H2S produced, bad news in a sub.

I've seen people glue copper pennies the outside of car batteries. And for
some, there was corrosion. Supposedly it would prevent or reduce the impact
on the actual terminals (even though they had some anyway). I never found
out what the corrosion was. I assumed (lightly, recognizing I didn't really
know for sure) that it was gaseous H2SO4 causing it. But maybe H2S, maybe
with something in the air along with it?

 

[[email protected]]

| [email protected] wrote:
|> In alt.engineering.electrical Ken Maltby <[email protected]>
|> wrote:
|>
|>> Equalization should be done based on the hydrometer readings
|>> of your cells being out of whack. As a scheduled activity most
|>> advice I've seen suggests once every six months. These types of
|>> routine equalization only last 1-3hrs. Any time you are so severely
|>> overvolting the batteries you NEED to be closely monitoring the
|>> batteries, especially the temperatures, and MUST suspend charging
|>> until they return to normal temperatures, before continuing the
|>> equalization. (The equalization process stresses and shortens the
|>> lifespan of a battery, just not nearly as much as allowing the
|>> sulfide buildup.)
|>
|> I'd be interested in what effect would come of more frequent, but
|> short term, charging pulses at an equalization level, done only when
|> the batteries are topped off at 100%. Instead of 1-3 hours, maybe a
|> couple minutes, then wait
|> an hour, then two more minutes, and repeat this maybe a couple times
|> each
|> day when there has been some recent period of less than 100% charge.
|>
|
| One issue with equalizer charges (besides the temperature rise) is that the
| current tends to break down the water into H2 and O2. So at the end of
| equalizer charges when the voltage is allowed to rise, there is more H2
| given off than at any other time.
|
| This also means you use somewhat more water to maintain the proper level in
| the cells.

My plan is to use a separate building away from the house, with ventilation,
constructed for natural temperature management, along with solar heaters and
water thermal storage to keep temperatures above freezing in the winter.

I guess I need some gas detectors for H2 and H2S. The latter will need to
be on the floor, since H2S is heavier than ordinary air.

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
| On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
|
|>On Aug 20, 2:50 pm, [email protected] wrote:
|>> In alt.engineering.electrical [email protected] wrote:
|
|>> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries
|>> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently.
|
|>Been there, done it.
|
| You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your
| techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical
| pointless Ghinius BS.

Why should he share them.
They're just classic legacy setups he learned about
in his class.

I don't believe he's learned or done anything other than how to bolt
cable to terminal. He only pretended to have done something extra, and
it was predicable that he wouldn't supply any details. It's classic
ghinius weaseling. He once claimed to have designed his way out of
"needing" AC in a very hot climate. I nicknamed his invention "Magic
Mass". Daestrom called him on it, and George took the discussion to
email to demand a signed non-disclosure agreement before getting into
details. But Daestrom outed the whole thing and George never did give
so much as his average daily outdoor temperature, or even say what
interior temperature constituted "not needing" AC. Hilariously
transparent then as now.

He expects everyone else to know these already.

What he expects is that most readers won't be able to tell if he's
lying. He probably believes that only a few on Usenet know better, but
it's likely that even the least technical folks he's ever dealt with
were able to see through his bluster. For example, anybody with a
pocket calculator can figure out that the following Ghioism is a
foolish self-busting exaggeration: "my petrol use is, as it has been
for many years, an average of twenty liters per fortnight. The bulk of
this is for the motorcycle which is used for transport to and from
school (280 KM a week). The rest is used to run the tractor, chainsaw
and of course the generator"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/3e7486014f8fb2ff

He's obviously
not an engineer or researcher. He's just an installer.

Actually, he's long since gone on to pretending to be something new
http://www.alibaba.com/member/renegadewriting/aboutus.html. Notice
that he claims to "specialise" in editing, yet failed to properly edit
his own "company" name. The ad used to have two instances of that
particular error, and despite being ridiculed for it, he only managed
to fix one of them. It's clearly his M.O. to wildly exaggerate his
capabilities.

If all I wanted was a
classic legacy setup, who knows, he might be a fine contractor to do that job.

Reminds me of a story. I once asked a day helper if he knew how to
operate a nail gun. He assured me in no uncertain terms. Minutes later
he drove a pair of 3" nails through two fingers. Some people just
aren't smart enough to admit what they don't know, even when it's
against their own interests to pretend otherwise. There's surely
something that George could be trusted to do, but even if it was
augering a toilet drain I'd be asking myself how many ways he might
find to screw up the job. It would take a brave owner to let George
Ghio near a large battery bank. After all, what could one say if
things went wrong? "I knew he couldn't be trusted to operate an
Ohmmeter, but I thought he'd be OK with 1000 Amps"

I would not wanting him to design anything out of the ordinary.

Did you read his 300k Ohm wire foolishness, and realize that he bills
himself as a "power consultant"? The word "design" doesn't fit in with
such contradictions except in his imagination.

One more thing you've probably noticed by now. Often, and only *after*
George has absorbed yet another thumping in a debate, he'll weasel his
way out the door by using any silly dodge. In this case he's
pretending to believe that you are Ron. At one point he claimed that I
was actually most of the regular posters in the energy newsgroups. Of
course, being a true Renaissance nitwit it's unlikely he's capable of
reading a header, so the Phil-is-Ron thing could be yet another
delusion.

Wayne

 

[bw]

On 20 Aug 2008 18:47:33 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
One more thing you've probably noticed by now. Often, and only *after*
George has absorbed yet another thumping in a debate, he'll weasel his
way out the door by using any silly dodge. In this case he's
pretending to believe that you are Ron. At one point he claimed that I
was actually most of the regular posters in the energy newsgroups. Of
course, being a true Renaissance nitwit it's unlikely he's capable of
reading a header, so the Phil-is-Ron thing could be yet another
delusion.

Wayne

Some days ago he declared it was impossible for one diode to produce DC or
charge a battery with a single rectifier.
I responded with several links to basic charging circuits and got no
response.

 

[[email protected]]

| Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn in the
| paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the purpose. As I
| understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited contact with
| the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material,

Are you confusing VRLA with AGM?

 

[Herbert John \Jackie\ Gleason]

I remember back when the internet was a civil place, before people like you
became an infestation.

Cussing is not un-civil, dude.

Walking around a free forum acting like some sin free judge most
certainly is, however.

 

[bw]

And I am still waiting for the answer as to how it works with DC,
being that the whole thing has to do with diodes and battery banks.

I'll repeat my previous response to your poorly worded question.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_5/3.html

Now, a google search of the four words - half wave battery charger -
produces 68000 hits, many of those hits show how it works.

I've built many small battery chargers with a single diode, and no
filtering.

I was just correcting your false assertion that a single diode can't produce
DC

 

[bw]

And I am still waiting for the answer as to how it works with DC,
being that the whole thing has to do with diodes and battery banks.

Here is my original response of August 16 that you ignored.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
A direct example
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wilf.james/nicads.htm

68000 hits on google for "half wave battery charger"
That is a fundamental application, and one I have used many times.
Direct connection with a wire. Many modern applications of an old circuit.
You probably have used them if you ever used an old automotive charger.


All chemical cells are DC by definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier
More examples
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/BatteryCharger-12vSLA/Batt...
A 1999 patent http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5940280/description.html

 

[[email protected]]

| |>
|> | Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn in
|> the
|> | paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the purpose.
|> As I
|> | understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited contact
|> with
|> | the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material,
|>
|> Are you confusing VRLA with AGM?
|>
|
| If I am it is due to reading this paper:
|
| http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2006/LandwehrlePaper2006.pdf
|
| I'll look up AGM in a minute.

What kind of capillary action exists in VRLA?

 

[[email protected]]

| |> | |> |>
|> |> | Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn
|> in
|> |> the
|> |> | paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the
|> purpose.
|> |> As I
|> |> | understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited
|> contact
|> |> with
|> |> | the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material,
|> |>
|> |> Are you confusing VRLA with AGM?
|> |>
|> |
|> | If I am it is due to reading this paper:
|> |
|> | http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2006/LandwehrlePaper2006.pdf
|> |
|> | I'll look up AGM in a minute.
|>
|> What kind of capillary action exists in VRLA?
|>
|
| Did you read the cite? AGM, from what I read is a Gell Cell. VR (Valve
| Regulated) LA is made with an absorbent plate separator, under some pressure
| between plate/separator/plate, and a limited amount of electrolyte.
| Separator materials vary. Now. I am familiar with flooded cell and gell
| cell, having worked with both for many years, and I have seen the insides of
| what I now know to have been a VRLA cell as well as Silver Zinc flooded
| cells in the military ( the battery shop guy was a friend of mine and showed
| me how to inspect, test, and repair the AgZn cells ) but my responses in
| this thread are extracts from certain cited sites alongside already
| accumulated experience. If you must question something it would help if you
| actually read the cited paper before asking the question. That way you might
| not need to ask.

AGM is absorbent glass mat, not gel cell.

VRLA is a class of batteries (includes AGM and gel cell) that includes a
regulated valve to control the gas release at a certain pressure.