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Conditioner power estimation

Discussion in 'Electrical Engineering' started by kunt, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. kunt

    kunt Guest

    Hi all,
    how many watts of conditioner power are needed to dissipate the heat of
    1 watt of electrical equipment, keeping the conditioned room 8 degrees
    celsius (46 Fahrenheit) below the temperature of the external environment?
    Suppose small room and thermically insulated.


    ....we have a server room with 14KW of computers...
    Yes we will call an expert for this estimation but please give me a
    rough guess in the meanwhile.
    Are there any formulas on the Internet for this estimation, which I can
    study myself?

    Thank you
     
  2. Samuel Chan

    Samuel Chan Guest

    My understanding is different electrical equipment will have different heat
    dissipate, some equipment's catalogue will provide this info. CIBSE guide
    books provide these heat info on general area.
    Based on this heat dissipate info, the HVAC side can calculate the cooling
    load and select the AC unit.
     
  3. kunt

    kunt Guest

    Yes please tell me how to keep into account the fact that we want to
    keep the room at least 8 celsius (46 fahrenheit) below the temperature
    of the outside air.

    Thank you
     
  4. kunt

    kunt Guest

    more precisely: max 32 Celsius when outside is 40 Celsius
     
  5. Guest

    | wrote:
    |>
    |> 1kw of electrical ......
    |> ...A lot will bepend on ambient outside air temp ans sun load for that.
    |
    | Yes please tell me how to keep into account the fact that we want to
    | keep the room at least 8 celsius (46 fahrenheit) below the temperature
    | of the outside air.

    When calculating _differences_ in temperature, conversion between celsius
    and fahrenheit is slightly different. For every 5 degrees of difference
    in celsius, there is 9 degrees of difference in fahrenheit. So if you
    want the temperature to be 8 C less than outside, it will be 14.4 F less
    than outside (not 46).

    You have to know the rate that heat will flow into the room from outside.
    This depends on so many factors that you pretty much just have to test it
    and see. It's hard to test this with everything running, which you most
    likely must do. One reason is the test varies depending on what the
    outside temperature is.

    Do the existing A/C systems run continuously or do they cycle on and off
    in a normal manner? Is the temperature stable now, or does it go up and
    down rather extreme? Is it just too hot in there and the A/C you have now
    just can't cool it any better?
     
  6. kunt

    kunt Guest

    OF COURSE! Stupid me!
    I used the google calc conversion, I didn't pay attention to the fact
    that the C/F conversion it is not like all other conversions because of
    the zero problem
    Is this the only problem with the 8 degrees difference?

    I thought that the biggest problem was the conditioning system working
    less efficiently if they have to draw heat from a room which is already
    cold to bring it to a place which is already hot.
    Is this factor irrelevant?

    It seems relevant to me:
    I have tried to put plastic sheets so to drive hot air from the servers
    to the input of the conditioners, preventing it to mix to the cold air
    output from the conditioners. This gave hotter air to the conditioners
    (might have been about 10 celsius hotter, I am not sure). They appeared
    to work much more efficiently, like 50% more efficiently, but I have not
    tested this really well to be so sure.
    If everything was not running, how would you test this?
    Like bringing the temperature down then looking at the speed at which
    the temperature increases?
    It seems like the current conditioners cannot keep the temperature
    stable to the temperature which has been preset to them. But I haven't
    really tested well.

    Yes they are working full time, no cycle.
    It might be possible for us to stop all equipment for a while.

    Thanks a lot
     
  7. kunt

    kunt Guest

    Great! Really helpful, thanks a lot!
    OF COURSE, stupid me! I used google calc badly. Also see my reply to the
    other post...
     
  8. Guest

    | I thought that the biggest problem was the conditioning system working
    | less efficiently if they have to draw heat from a room which is already
    | cold to bring it to a place which is already hot.
    | Is this factor irrelevant?

    It's what A/C systems are designed to do. They "compress" heat so it is
    actually coming out of the precipitator at a higher temperature than it
    entered the evaporator. Stick your hand in the air flow out from the A/C
    outside and you will see it is hot.


    | It seems relevant to me:
    | I have tried to put plastic sheets so to drive hot air from the servers
    | to the input of the conditioners, preventing it to mix to the cold air
    | output from the conditioners. This gave hotter air to the conditioners
    | (might have been about 10 celsius hotter, I am not sure). They appeared
    | to work much more efficiently, like 50% more efficiently, but I have not
    | tested this really well to be so sure.

    That would help if you don't mind the rest of the room operating at a
    higher temperature.


    |> This depends on so many factors that you pretty much just have to test it
    |> and see. It's hard to test this with everything running, which you most
    |> likely must do. One reason is the test varies depending on what the
    |> outside temperature is.
    |
    | If everything was not running, how would you test this?
    | Like bringing the temperature down then looking at the speed at which
    | the temperature increases?

    The timing of temperature rise under varying external conditions would give
    some clue as to the rate the heat comes into the building from outside. If
    you can do it with all computers off, that's more accurate. But I guess
    you don't have that option.


    |> Do the existing A/C systems run continuously or do they cycle on and off
    |> in a normal manner? Is the temperature stable now, or does it go up and
    |> down rather extreme? Is it just too hot in there and the A/C you have now
    |> just can't cool it any better?
    |
    | It seems like the current conditioners cannot keep the temperature
    | stable to the temperature which has been preset to them. But I haven't
    | really tested well.
    |
    | Yes they are working full time, no cycle.

    You should also look at whether they have the correct blower sizing, and
    that they are operating with all other conditions in good shape. Make sure
    the precipitator baffles are clear. Make sure the freon is in good state.
    If you have air in the freon line, that can reduce efficiency. If you hear
    the compressor working really hard right when it kicks on, there may be air
    in there (which cannot be compressed to a liquid).

    | It might be possible for us to stop all equipment for a while.

    Good thermal testing might take a couple days. I doubt you can do this
    with things turned off.

    Someone with experience in A/C systems and building insulation might be
    able to give you a good estimate of your building efficiency, and adjust
    your new A/C sizing appropriately. But my guess is you will need 50% to
    100% more than what you have now.

    I would also figure in redundancy at this time, too. In one place I used
    to work, we made a conservative heating estimate and figured 2 units to
    cool it, but installed 3 units anyway for backup purpose so we could take
    one unit out of service at any time. I've heard of some places going to
    250% to 300% for high redundancy (they were uptime critical).
     
  9. kunt

    kunt Guest

    I understand that it's what they are supposed to do, and approximately
    how they work, but are you sure that the efficiency of the AC is not
    influenced by the temperature difference between the room and the outside?

    I kinda understand the steps involved in determining the heat flow
    through the walls due to the temp difference, what I don't know how to
    keep into account is the decrease in efficiency in the AC system if the
    room where to draw heat from is 8 celsius below the outside temp

    Thanks for your help
     
  10. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest



    Yes, it is. Amperage draw of the compressor increases with head pressure,
    which increases with the temperature of the condenser.

    While calculations can be done to put you in the ballpark, the final choice
    of capacity is an educated guess. There's too many variables involved and
    any unit will only be ideal under one set of conditions.
     
  11. Guest

    | wrote:
    |>
    |> | I thought that the biggest problem was the conditioning system working
    |> | less efficiently if they have to draw heat from a room which is already
    |> | cold to bring it to a place which is already hot.
    |> | Is this factor irrelevant?
    |>
    |> It's what A/C systems are designed to do. They "compress" heat so it is
    |> actually coming out of the precipitator at a higher temperature than it
    |> entered the evaporator. Stick your hand in the air flow out from the A/C
    |> outside and you will see it is hot.
    |
    | I understand that it's what they are supposed to do, and approximately
    | how they work, but are you sure that the efficiency of the AC is not
    | influenced by the temperature difference between the room and the outside?

    That depends on what kind of efficiency you mean. Sure, if the outside is
    hotter on one day than another, the A/C has to work harder on that hot day.
    This is due both to the greater heat flow coming in, as well as the lesser
    temperature difference at the precipitator. But this is a working condition
    and not a part of the equipment efficiency. But maybe what you are wanting
    is a working efficiency level.


    | I kinda understand the steps involved in determining the heat flow
    | through the walls due to the temp difference, what I don't know how to
    | keep into account is the decrease in efficiency in the AC system if the
    | room where to draw heat from is 8 celsius below the outside temp

    If the inside room temperature equals the outside, there is no heat to move.
    Heat the room up and it flows outside. The flow will be in proportion to
    the temperature difference. The details of the building insulation itself
    would give you some absolute figures (if you want to spend all the time to
    model every aspects of the building construction). Normally one would want
    a computer room to be at some specific temperature, such as 18C. Then you
    have to consider the extra heat coming in, and opposing the precipitator,
    at the highest outside temperature you need to handle. The heat released
    by the computers usually well exceeds the heat ingress through the building
    in a typical computer room installation. You need enough A/C to keep the
    room cold if it didn't have computers, plus enough A/C to remove the heat
    released by the computers, plus a level of redundancy to handle taking a
    unit or two offline for maintenance or failure.

    What is your highest outside temperature? Are you in Troms? Norway?
     
  12. Guest

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:52:15 -0500 wrote:
    |
    |>I kinda understand the steps involved in determining the heat flow
    |>through the walls due to the temp difference, what I don't know how to
    |>keep into account is the decrease in efficiency in the AC system if the
    |>room where to draw heat from is 8 celsius below the outside temp
    |
    | 8 c is not that big a delta inside to outside unless you are using
    | full fresh air makup. That is still mostly affected by the building
    | insulation. The high side of the freon loop will still be
    | significantly hotter than the ambient.

    Based on his email address, he appears to be located in Norway. Just how
    far north is the next question. A/C experts in Lappland might be hard to
    find.
     
  13. kunt

    kunt Guest

    No I am sorry, my email is a bogus fake address, I hate being traced so
    I morph frequently.

    Latitude is that of Lyon, France. Temperature max reaches 40 Celsius in
    summer, we want to keep it below 32 C.

    Thanks everybody
     
  14. Guest

    | wrote:
    |>
    |> What is your highest outside temperature? Are you in Troms? Norway?
    |
    | No I am sorry, my email is a bogus fake address, I hate being traced so
    | I morph frequently.
    |
    | Latitude is that of Lyon, France. Temperature max reaches 40 Celsius in
    | summer, we want to keep it below 32 C.

    So I wonder who is getting a bunch of questions in their mailbox.

    If you want to morph you own email to avoid spammers, you can do that.
    But one should not just use a valid address that could be used by someone
    else. Either use a non-existant top level domain or "example.com".
     
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