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Compressed gas as a power reservoir question.

G

Gary Helfert

Jan 1, 1970
0
If I had two equal volume cylinders, one of say Helium, the other say
Nitrogen,
both at equal pressure (say 3000 psi) would the heavier gas have the higher
energy capacity?
 
S

Sylvan Butler

Jan 1, 1970
0
If I had two equal volume cylinders, one of say Helium, the other say
Nitrogen,
both at equal pressure (say 3000 psi) would the heavier gas have the higher
energy capacity?

Strictly pressure providing the energy (ie, no combustion)?

For greatest energy storage, look for a gas that liquifies under
pressures obtainable in your system. This will allow you to store
vastly more fuel at the vapor pressure than trying for higher (more
dangerous) storage pressures. E.g., an equal size tank of CO2 vs N, the
N could be at much higher pressure, but it is hard to equal the energy
in the tank of CO2 because CO2 liquifies so nicely. Similar also,
propane compared to methane or hydrogen.

sdb
 
R

Robert Morein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arnold Walker said:
Yes ,though helium has more promise on nuke systems with greater isolation
of
contaminates than water.
No!
PV = NRT, regardless of the weight of the gas.
The work required to compress the gas is the same.
Incidentally, this is inefficient, compared to water storage, because the
gas heats up when compressed, and that gas is lost to the environment.
 
R

Robert Morein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Morein said:
No!
PV = NRT, regardless of the weight of the gas.
The work required to compress the gas is the same.
Incidentally, this is inefficient, compared to water storage, because the
gas heats up when compressed, and that gas is lost to the environment.
I mean, "that heat is lost to the environment."
To avoid this, the gas would have to be compressed into a perfect thermos.
 
G

Gary Helfert

Jan 1, 1970
0
From a practical standpoint using a gas that compresses to a liquid would
make the most amount of sense, however as an academic question if two
cylinders of equal volume & equal temperatures,
which would have the higher energy capacity, the heavier or the lighter gas?
I know PV = nRT somehow contains the answer but am not sure how.

Anybody know what is the equation for the energy content of a compressed gas
is?
 
M

m II

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Morein wrote:
x
No!
PV = NRT, regardless of the weight of the gas.
The work required to compress the gas is the same.
Incidentally, this is inefficient, compared to water storage, because the
gas heats up when compressed, and that gas is lost to the environment.

On my home world, we compress the gas in the winter, when we can use
the heat given off. The stored gas energy is released during the next
twinning of the suns, when we can use the cold from the expanding gas.
We are in suspended animation in between times.

Leakage of what you call Helium has been solved, as has Hydrogen
embrittlement of welds, tanks and fittings.




xerxes
 
H

Heywood Jablome

Jan 1, 1970
0
You are mixing potential energy theory with relativity theory.

Essentially, if you include all energy, INCLUDING potential energy, the
heaviest container is the container with the most amount of energy as energy
equals mass times the speed of light. E=MC^2.
 
R

Robert Morein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arnold Walker said:
MA=F Think of slide hammer and you got your answer.
Though the gentleman with the PV=nRT never noticed that steam and water
pipes hammer
like crazy compared to air pipes. Or that 3000psi of liquid will move with
more force than 3000psi of air.
By the difference in density of the betweenthe two.
Arnold,
This is not relevant to the question. You seem to be confusing the
kinetic energy of moving water with the potential energy of a compressed
gas.

In an application such as a water cutting machine, the water is forced
through a small orifice at great pressure. On the supply side of the
orifice, the pressure is high. On the output side of the orifice, the
pressure is zero. However, the impact of water moving at 2000 miles per hour
impacts the target with great kinetic energy. The wattage (joules/second) of
the water beam is given by

Joules/second =(1/2)*rho*A*v where
rho=density of water, A=area of the water beam, and v=velocity of the water
beam.
Since the energy of the beam is proportional to the density, it's easier to
cut with water than air.

But is impossible to store any significant amount of potential energy in
a compressed fluid, because fluids are virtually incompressible. To reduce
the volume of water by even 1% requires thousands of atmospheres of
pressure.

Thank you for calling me a gentleman, Arnold. I hope you notice more in
the future.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Morein said:
Sure. Let's do the computation for the isothermal and adiabatic cases:

Work = Int F*dl = Int{PA*dl} = A Int{P*dl} = A Int{(NRT/V)*dl}
= A Int{ (NRT/(AL))*dl} = A*Int{(NRT/(AL))*dl}
= Int{(NRT/L}*dl} = Int{NRT dV/V} = Int{PV*dV} = (1/2)PV^2 (adiabatic
solution)

Actually, that is the general solution. But since it still leaves the value
of temperature unknown, it is not very useful, and not directly solvable for
the adiabatic case. How would you calculate the temperature rise from
compression with such a formula?? Without a final temperature, how would
you calculate the final volume?

For any polytropic process, pV^n = C where 'n' has a value of 1 for
isothermal processes and is equal to the ratio of specific heats for a
reversible adiabatic process. The ratio of specific heats (Cp vs Cv) is an
interesting property of the particular working fluid chosen.

To find the temperature rise for the compression of a gas under such
conditions, it is easy to
use :
T1/T2 = (p1/p2) ^((n-1)/n)
Where 'n' is equal to the ratio of specific heats for an adiabatic process.

The work then done in compressing a gas adibatically (a near approximation
for the rapid compression seen inside a compressor cylinder) is thus....

work = int{pdV} and p=CV^(-n) thus W = int{CV^(-n) dV} From state 1 to state
2, this integral is = (CV2^(1-n) - CV1^(1-n))/(1-n) (where C = p2V2^n =
p1V1^n)

Because the ratio of specific heats *is* a function of the specific
molecule, there can be some savings by choosing the proper gas. For
example, the ratio for air and other diatomic gases is about 1.4. For
helium, neon, and the other noble gases the ratio is about 1.666

Adiabatically compressing 1 ft^3 of air from 14.7 psia to 3000 psia would
change its volume to: (14.7/3000^(1/1.4) * 1ft^3 = .022394 ft^3 for a total
work of:
W = (3000*0.022394 - 14.7*1)/(1 - 1.4) *(144) = -18894 ft-lbf
Its temperature rise, if starting at 80F (540R) would be:
T2 = 540R / ((14.7/3000)^((1.4-1)/1.4)) = 2468 R

And for helium, 1 ft^3 from 14.7 psia to 3000 psia would change its volume
to:
(14.7/3000)^(1/1.666) * 1 ft^3 = 0.041121 for a total work of:
W = (3000*.041121 - 14.7*1)/(1 - 1.666)*(144) = -23473 ft-lbf
Its temperature rise, if starting at 80F (540R) would be:
T2 = 540R / ((14.7/3000)^((1.66-1)/1.66)) = 4526 R

The severe temperature rise involved is one of the reasons why high pressure
compressors perform the compression in stages and cool the gas between
stages. A typical compression of four stages (compression ratio of about
4:1 per stage) can heat the air to > 450F at each stage outlet. The gas is
then cooled by intercoolers back down to < 200F before entering the next
stage.

The lower the ratio of specific heats, the less work needed to compress the
same volume of gas and the lesser amount of work is converted to raising
the temperature of the gas and thus eventually rejected to the environment
(unless stored in a perfectly insulated container). There exists many
gasses with ratios of specific heats lower than air (hydrazine, acetylene
and propane are some). But they all complicate handling/recover
requirements.

Of course, if you can absorb the same heat from the environment during the
expansion, then this issue falls by the way as you then recover most (but
not all) of the energy previously rejected.

Any real world situation is in between the two, but the conclusion is the
same: compressing a gas is a lousy way to store energy, because the heat
created by compression is lost to the environment. Compared to other
methods
of energy storage, such as a battery, or pumped storage, it's lousy.

Unless you can trigger a phase change as another was trying to point out. A
fluid that can be changed into a liquid at near environment temperatures by
compression and rejecting heat to the environment, can also be converted
back to a gas at nearly the same temperatures by absorbing heat from the
environment. So, much of the energy is actually 'stored' in the
environment, not the working fluid. But again, if you use some gas/fluid
other than air, you have the nasty problem of containing and holding the
expanded gas until you can 'recharge' the system.

Liquifaction can greatly increase the energy density of the storage. But
since air is so very 'far away' from liquifaction at normal environmental
conditions, an awful lot of energy would be wasted just getting air to the
condition ready for the phase change. And containing and carrying around a
huge volume of another gas once expanded is not very practical either.

daestrom
 
G

Gary Helfert

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would have never guessed how such a simple problem could result in so many
complicated answers.
I guess I'll just have to run piston attached to a weight and see how high
the weight is lifted with each gas.
I can probably go with 10 psi and get my answer.
 
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