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Chris Torek

Jan 1, 1970
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You see, some people would like to consider the cost of Mideast policy to be
an oil subsidy. My point is that this is preposterous because with or
without oil we will still have a Mideast policy ...

I imagine we would, yes -- just as we have a "sub-Saharan Africa"
policy, for instance. But would we spend as much money on it?
Four billion dollars a month, say? :)
 
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Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
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what you don't realize is that increased demand increases prices, not
decrease. as hydrogen use goes up, supply of natural gas dwindles, forcing
the prices up.
 
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Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
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natural gas is a finite supply. the more you use, the higher the price goes
as it gets scarcer. the more we scale up hydrogen, the shorter our supply of
natural gas, increasing prices. what's hard to understand?
 
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Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Israel did very well for themselves in the 6 day war without our help. Don't
count them out so quickly. The Semites have been fighting among themselves
for thousands of years before there was a USA, or even a European. They
won't stop because we bow out of the picture.
 
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Moosh:]

Jan 1, 1970
0
So let me see if I've got this straight. In Germany the #2 consumer of
steel is the wind industry and they owe it all to uncle sam? I kinda
doubt it. We are so far behind on this side of the atlantic its pathetic.

I don't think he said "ALL".
USA made more wind turbines than anyone else or everyone else together
(can't recall which) last year.
Biodiesel is tax-free in Germany and gets you busted in Britain for tax
evasion. France actually has electric cars on the road and people there
don't have SUV envy.

There are apparently lots of Toyota hybrids in London taking advantage
of the concessions given to these pollution reducing vehicles
(according to my son who returned from there yesterday)
Anybody who loses money harvesting a free resource is profoundly foolish
about it.

Hey, oil is free. Think about it.
 
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Don Lancaster

Jan 1, 1970
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Steve said:
what you don't realize is that increased demand increases prices, not
decrease. as hydrogen use goes up, supply of natural gas dwindles, forcing
the prices up.


Not necessarily.
It depends on whether the commodity is elastic or inelastic.

Essential uses of natural gas would not be particularly cost sensitive.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: [email protected] fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
 
In alt.energy.homepower Steve Spence said:
natural gas is a finite supply. the more you use, the higher the price goes
as it gets scarcer. the more we scale up hydrogen, the shorter our supply of
natural gas, increasing prices. what's hard to understand?

Well, if the people buying hydrogen are using that instead of the natural
gas that they would have bought, then the natural gas won't be bought by
them. Still is a net loss, because of the chemical and thermal
inefficiencies of the situation, but it won't be "double-counted".

Biofuels are a better answer - instead of playing "let's convert this
fuel into another fuel" games, *and* making a new batch of cars to use
them, why not grow a fuel that can be sold in existing infrastructure,
and burned in existing vehicles? Sure, hydrogen is a cool, shiny
technology, but it's a net-loss from the start.

Dave Hinz
 
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Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
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Don't do a Don L. Hydrogen is an unlikely enough fuel for small scale
transportation, and most of our arguments here are localized on that one
application. If you consider the community needs (trucks, trains, jets and
rockets, military and commercial applications, chemical industry, and long
term power system buffering), and include production of hydrogen as required
to support whatever fuels we do manufacture for our personalized transport,
hydrogen has a place, and probably a very large place, in our manufactured
fuel system, just that most of it will not be the final fuel of use, except
in a few important exceptional cases. All manufactured fuels are a net loss
from the start, and that issue is as uninteresting for hydrogen as it is for
every other fuel. You could ask yourself how much of the nuclear energy is
thrown away just to keep the temperature down where it is easier to build
the reactor. This is the same sort of thing. Pontificating on hydrogen's
place (as a fuel for a personal car) is going to sound pretty silly when
mass amounts of hydrogen are synthesized for a fuel synthesis process to
make something practical, say butane.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
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R. H. Allen said:
Your insistence that hydrogen production must be tied to natural gas
production.

If it's cheapest to produce it from natural gas, fine, just say so. But
as soon as the cost of producing it that way exceeds the cost of doing
it another way, I doubt natural gas will be the primary source anymore.
Simple economics, really.

At any rate, it's clear that nobody here can give me the pointers I was
seeking, so I'll just see if I can uncover them myself.

NG is one can of worms.

The only other 'practical' source of H2 I know of would be electrolysis.
The only way to get decent efficiency is PEM and that's an easy
$800/kw of capital cost right there. That's the high production target;
it runs several thousand a kilowatt today.

But what was the point of using hydrogen in the first place? To stop
putting carbon in the atmosphere? Since more than half our electricity
comes from coal and maybe 7% of the heat value of that coal would make
it to the wheels via hydrogen, we simply have a bigger problem than we
started with.

Now, if folks would start commuting with electric vehicles, that may help.

But this hydrogen, have your cake and eat it too thing...

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Best, Dan.
 
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Mike Ackerman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dan said:
NG is one can of worms.

The only other 'practical' source of H2 I know of would be electrolysis.

[...]

But what was the point of using hydrogen in the first place? To stop
putting carbon in the atmosphere?

If you want to get really peeved, search Google Groups for my previous
thread, "Why Does the NRDC Endorse Hydrogen Made From Coal? Repost"

Mike Ackerman
 
A

Adam

Jan 1, 1970
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For the record, here in the UK we already pay more than $5/ gallon for
gas..........
 
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clare @ snyder.on .ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:27:06 -0400, "Steve Spence"

A large percentage of our municipal bus fleet runs on CNG.
 
Instead of spending billions to subsidize alternative energy, the Fed's need
to spend a few million on huge purses for alternative fuel car races. Most
*practical* advances in automobiles come from shops, not from academia.

You bet - that's one of the best solutions I've heard. Let those who
are trying to solve the problem decide how to do it, rather than
trying to have some politician decide on technical issues.

(removed alt.politics from newsgroup line)
Dave Hinz
 
C

Chris1

Jan 1, 1970
0
We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Even hybrid SUVs would be a step in the right direction. But given the
attitude of the average SUV driver, they wouldn't be happy unless they're
wasting lots of gas.

Chris
 
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Moosh:]

Jan 1, 1970
0
Actually... you can. Use a solar panel to provide electricity to a
Castner Cell electrolysis unit. Produce sodium metal pellets from the
electrolysis of sodium hydroxide. Carry the sodium metal pellets in a
can down the road to your car. Place the metal pellets in a tank with
water and you can produce plenty of hydrogen to power your vehicle
until all the pellets are reacted back into sodium hydroxide.

What do you eat for the several weeks you wait for the electricity to
be generated or the Sun to come out?
This apparatus a bit more expensive than a two gallon can?
How long do you estimate it would take to accumulate the equivalent
energy in hydrogen, as in the two gallons of petrol?
Only catch is... Your car must be converted to run on either gasoline
or hydrogen. Tai Robinson or James Heffel could help with the
conversion of a regular combustion engine to operate on hydrogen gas.

That's easy, but expensive. I used to carry five litres of petrol in
the boot at all times. My son and daughter still do.
 
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Moosh:]

Jan 1, 1970
0
Instead of spending billions to subsidize alternative energy, the Fed's need
to spend a few million on huge purses for alternative fuel car races. Most
*practical* advances in automobiles come from shops, not from academia.

The best solar cars in our solar race are Honda with its billions,
using academia's latest PV cells.
 
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Moosh:]

Jan 1, 1970
0
For the record, here in the UK we already pay more than $5/ gallon for
gas..........

Yeah, but they're big fat Pommie gallons.... :)
 
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Moosh:]

Jan 1, 1970
0
We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.
 
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