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Circuit simulation software

M

mc

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Bowey said:
Who cares?

Well, I was thinking that Anasoft might not want to repel potential
customers, if Anasoft is in business to make money.
You haven't been around here very long, so I will clue you in......

In Kevin's view, only Kevin is worth quoting.

Ah. True, I haven't been reading this group regularly for several months.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I do note that you admit to regular failures. My rate of need for
debug is under 1%... usually due to the customer's failure to spec
what he really wanted.

I have no design "failures" since I started designing professionally
at the age of 18. I often change parts values on a new first-article,
and sometimes add a kluge, usually a cut/jumper and sometimes an added
resistor, cap, or even a diode, like if we find a latchup mode in a
chip or something like that. Sometimes we think of an improvement or a
feature, and squeeze it in if possible. It's very rare around here
that we can't sell a presentable rev "A" board. I do design a *lot* of
stuff.

How careful you need to be depends on the consequences of defects and
how hard they are to fix. An IC is expensive to turn, so a lot of
simulation is justified. Software is the other extreme, easy to hack
and easy to edit, so programmers are the sloppiest of designers. The
point is for everyone to optimize his particular design process, and I
believe my optimum involves careful design and checking and very
little breadboarding or simulation.

But the flat statement that complex analog design can't be done
without simulation may be mostly true for IC design, but it's sure not
universal. I wonder how much the uA709 was simulated.

The current educational paradigm, design by simulation, seems very bad
news to me. For Pete's sake, guys are simulating battery-resistor-LED
circuits and the most basic transistor switches.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have no design "failures" since I started designing professionally
at the age of 18. I often change parts values on a new first-article,
and sometimes add a kluge, usually a cut/jumper and sometimes an added
resistor, cap, or even a diode, like if we find a latchup mode in a
chip or something like that. Sometimes we think of an improvement or a
feature, and squeeze it in if possible. It's very rare around here
that we can't sell a presentable rev "A" board. I do design a *lot* of
stuff.

How careful you need to be depends on the consequences of defects and
how hard they are to fix. An IC is expensive to turn, so a lot of
simulation is justified. Software is the other extreme, easy to hack
and easy to edit, so programmers are the sloppiest of designers. The
point is for everyone to optimize his particular design process, and I
believe my optimum involves careful design and checking and very
little breadboarding or simulation.

But the flat statement that complex analog design can't be done
without simulation may be mostly true for IC design, but it's sure not
universal. I wonder how much the uA709 was simulated.

See...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/MC1530-TeachingExercise.pdf

for how I did a similar OpAmp design at about the same time (1963).
Algebra still works, even today.
The current educational paradigm, design by simulation, seems very bad
news to me. For Pete's sake, guys are simulating battery-resistor-LED
circuits and the most basic transistor switches.

John

You can't design with a simulator, you have to draw something on the
schematic first.

I don't see much design on these newsgroups, just hackers copying
published schematics and then trying to tweak them with no knowledge
aforethought ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
See...

http://analog-innovations.com/SED/MC1530-TeachingExercise.pdf

for how I did a similar OpAmp design at about the same time (1963).
Algebra still works, even today.

"The MC1530 OpAmp Chip was designed pretty much as outlined in the
above analysis EXCEPT that I worked the
equations backwards from the desired output voltage with some
judicious application of experience."

So, did you simulate the original design? "Worked the equation
backwards" sure sounds like design to me!

Often, design is simpler than analysis. When I design a closed-loop
system, I decide the overall loop dynamics first, then *force* each of
the blocks to do its part. Even simple resistor networks are often
easier to design than they are to analyze.

You can't design with a simulator, you have to draw something on the
schematic first.

Seems to me that a lot of people try. They do start somewhere, and
then fiddle until it seems to work. Some of the results are ghastly,
un-manufacturable messes.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
"The MC1530 OpAmp Chip was designed pretty much as outlined in the
above analysis EXCEPT that I worked the
equations backwards from the desired output voltage with some
judicious application of experience."

So, did you simulate the original design?

"Simulate"?? It was *1963*, circuit simulators didn't exist yet ;-)
"Worked the equation
backwards" sure sounds like design to me!

Yep, absolutely!
Often, design is simpler than analysis.

I knew what I wanted, I just had to try several scenarios until I got
the differential and common-mode performance I wanted.

I then proceeded to breadboard it with "kit parts" (†) and tweaked the
current levels so that the diode drops matched.

(†) "Kit parts" were test devices from process wafers that were bonded
up in DIL packages to allow breadboarding with actual I/C devices.
When I design a closed-loop
system, I decide the overall loop dynamics first, then *force* each of
the blocks to do its part. Even simple resistor networks are often
easier to design than they are to analyze.



Seems to me that a lot of people try. They do start somewhere, and
then fiddle until it seems to work. Some of the results are ghastly,
un-manufacturable messes.

John

I attended a design review about a year ago where another member of
the "design team" used an OpAmp open loop... assuming it had no offset
and that the gain was stable. Fortunately I spotted it before they
made the presentation to the end customer.

...Jim Thompson
 
John said:
Really, designing is a good investment in time. That especially
applies to software, where most programmers spend four times as long
debugging ("breadboarding") as they do coding, and have the same
problem as hardware breadboarders have, namely that ad-hoc debugging
never finds all the bugs. My ratio is more like 4:1 in the other
direction, not because I'm so smart, but because I *know* I'm not
smart enough to speed-type reliable code without looking back.

I think that the worst part of design by simulation/breadboarding is
the bad-habits-training loop that results.

AHMEN :))
 
John said:
How careful you need to be depends on the consequences of defects and
how hard they are to fix. An IC is expensive to turn, so a lot of
simulation is justified. Software is the other extreme, easy to hack
and easy to edit, so programmers are the sloppiest of designers. The
point is for everyone to optimize his particular design process, and I
believe my optimum involves careful design and checking and very
little breadboarding or simulation.

I think only for some modern programmers ... many of us learned to
design software when you might get a few test runs a week on batch
systems.

Others only get one shot at a production run ... aerospace guys for one
.... and a lot of others, where you reall do have to have your software
right first time.

There are an equally sloppy number of FPGA/CPLD HW guys these days.
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
I attended a design review about a year ago where another member of
the "design team" used an OpAmp open loop... assuming it had no offset
and that the gain was stable.

I suspect Joerg might find that a few pennies could be saved if you needed a
really low performance comparator and can abuse an garden-variety op-amp in
this manner to serve such a purpose? :)
Fortunately I spotted it before they
made the presentation to the end customer.

....so apparently they weren't trying to build a comparator...
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I suspect Joerg might find that a few pennies could be saved if you needed a
really low performance comparator and can abuse an garden-variety op-amp in
this manner to serve such a purpose? :)


...so apparently they weren't trying to build a comparator...

Nope. They thought they had a stable gain of 1000X... differential
input, single-ended output, all done in CMOS... ROTFLMAO'd... made 'em
angry... Atmel Germany ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I attended a design review about a year ago where another member of
the "design team" used an OpAmp open loop... assuming it had no offset
and that the gain was stable. Fortunately I spotted it before they
made the presentation to the end customer.

...Jim Thompson


Spice is great. Put 0 volts into an open-loop opamp and you get 0
volts out.

John
 
R

rick H

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
Spice is great. Put 0 volts into an open-loop opamp and you get 0
volts out.

In much the same way that 0V * Adc/(1 + s*tau) will give you 0V output
on paper?
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Only if your models are brain dead.

Very few vendor-provided models include any offset effects.

Except for the models provided by I/C foundries, MOST models should be
viewed with a jaundiced eye.

But that's how we separate real engineers from the little boys...
knowing when to trust simulations and when to not.

...Jim Thompson
 
K

Keith

Jan 1, 1970
0
To-Email- said:
Very few vendor-provided models include any offset effects.

Pretty useless then, eh? All of the models I've ever used specify
such things (though I've never used any opamp models).
Except for the models provided by I/C foundries,

Well, there ya' go.
MOST models should be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

Yep, I was using models a friend had once. I couldn't believe the
speed of the circuit I was designing. A kept cranking the step
interval down to get a good look. The idiot had divided all the
cap values by 1000 without telling me.
But that's how we separate real engineers from the little boys...
knowing when to trust simulations and when to not.

Sure, but even I didn't believe the speeds I was getting (the Ft of
the devices I was using were "only" around 7GHz). ;-)
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] says... [snip]
MOST models should be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

Yep, I was using models a friend had once. I couldn't believe the
speed of the circuit I was designing. A kept cranking the step
interval down to get a good look. The idiot had divided all the
cap values by 1000 without telling me.
But that's how we separate real engineers from the little boys...
knowing when to trust simulations and when to not.

Sure, but even I didn't believe the speeds I was getting (the Ft of
the devices I was using were "only" around 7GHz). ;-)

Looked at any SiGe recently, fT > 35GHz+

...Jim Thompson
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Very few vendor-provided models include any offset effects.

well, I have recently used verliloga models supplied by cadence, and
they have offsets, slews etc all parametized. You need to set them of
course!
Except for the models provided by I/C foundries, MOST models should be
viewed with a jaundiced eye.

But that's how we separate real engineers from the little boys...
knowing when to trust simulations and when to not.

And more importantly, how to correct/set them up so that they can be
trusted.


Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"There are none more ignorant and useless,than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed"
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Spice is great. Put 0 volts into an open-loop opamp and you get 0
volts out.

That's only if one is too inexperienced to know how to use models that
address 1st order errors.

Of course if people are clueless its GIGO. However, people that
correctly understand analogue and the simulater, simulation is trully
wonderfull. No one is suggesting driving a simulater in ignorance. As I
have already mentioned, the only way to gain a true genuine
*understanding* of the physics of colliding black holes is to use
simulation programs. The equations are just too complicated to "see"
what they mean without doing *experimental* simulations, and this is
done by people with PhDs and 20 years direct experience. Its just the
way it is. Most modern technology is way too complicated to understand
by pen and paper anymore, no matter how much we delude ourselves. Sure,
we all like to imagine that we are Steven Hawking doing grand
calculations in our head, but even he cant actually get the answers
without running simulations.


Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"There are none more ignorant and useless,than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed"
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Cool. I can design something that I *know* will work in a few hours,
and then I can goof off the other 37 hours of the work week.

No, you didnt design it then, you just copied (replicated) something
else you already knew worked. The *only* way to know if something
actually works, is to measure if it works. Even then you could be
fooled.


Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"There are none more ignorant and useless,than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed"
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
I've had him kill filed for years. That line sounds like it should
have been on top of the first page of instructions for his "spice"
package.

Pardon? So you think that praying to gods is worthwhile? Yeah, right on
dude. Many your gods have mercy on your souls.

Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"There are none more ignorant and useless,than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed"
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Who cares?

You haven't been around here very long, so I will clue you in......

In Kevin's view, only Kevin is worth quoting.

Indeed. My favourite is:

"Meaningless quotes have no meaning"
I think it is 95%
because he is usually correct and 5% because he argues to win even
when he is wrong, and knows it.

Indeed. One doesn't have to be right to win a debate.

Kevin Aylward B.Sc.
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"There are none more ignorant and useless,than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed"
 
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