Charging scheme for "electric gas station"?

[John Doe]

Given current (or easily imaginable by an electronics engineer)
battery technology in electric cars, how long would it take for an
electric car to get a decent charge? Seems to me that there would
be some serious connection problems with respect to heat generated
by a massive amount of current flow required for charging. A
parking garage charging scheme seems much better than just some
electric charging point along the way. But I do not know for sure,
that is why I ask.

Thanks.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

New technologies are suggesting charge times something like 5
minutes. Awfully efficient lithium stuff, probably on the verge of
ignition at that charge rate anyway. Still too long, and the amount
of electricity is staggering.

Indeed. A car needs something in the vicinity of 700kJ/km. So
a charge good for, say, 500km in 5 minutes would require over
a MW of power. It's hard to beat fossil fuels.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[John Doe]

Especially while the world is owned by big oil companies.

yes, if you do the calculation, the equivalent power flow
through the rubber hose of a common gas pump when you put gas in
your car, say 10 gallons in 2 minutes, is in the MEGA Watts.
That is a sobbering fact.

So, as Tim Williams wrote (and was for some strange reason
snipped), you simply exchange the battery. That might be
off-topic, but it is easy to imagine and understand.

 

[Don Lancaster]

So, as Tim Williams wrote (and was for some strange reason
snipped), you simply exchange the battery. That might be
off-topic, but it is easy to imagine and understand.

"Exchanging the battery" likely triples the operating costs of an
electric vehicle. There would now have to be at least three batteries
for every vehicle, possible more.

There is NO WAY that battery exchange stations make any economic sense
at all.


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[John Doe]

So go live in the woods and make your own fur clothing from the
bears you kill. Only big enterprises can deliver terawatts of
power to billions of people.

I figured it might have to be spelled out for the politically
challenged, after I posted. Your ignorance is jumping to
conclusions, and you are wearing partisan blinders. Hint... Have
you ever heard of nuclear power, Moron? Probably not, since big
oil owns everything and prevents the subject from getting in front
of your Moronic face so that you might notice it.

Sounds like a gigantic nuisance to me

So you have an opinion, Moron, good for you.

If you don't approve of cars, get a bicycle.

That straw man was formed in the vacuum between your ears, Moron.

 

[John Doe]

"Exchanging the battery" likely triples the operating costs of
an electric vehicle.

Says who?

There would now have to be at least three batteries for every
vehicle, possible more.

Why is that?

There is NO WAY that battery exchange stations make any economic
sense at all.

Says who?

 

[Don Lancaster]

Says who?


Why is that?


Says who?

Plain old arithmetic.

Three is greater than one.
Except for very large values of two.

One battery in the car, one being charged, and one spare for peak demand.

Plus, of course, the financial and overhead costs of making the service
available.

Multiple batteries obviously price electric vehicles out of existence.
Ain't gonna happen.



--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Paul Keinanen]

Given current (or easily imaginable by an electronics engineer)
battery technology in electric cars, how long would it take for an
electric car to get a decent charge? Seems to me that there would
be some serious connection problems with respect to heat generated
by a massive amount of current flow required for charging. A
parking garage charging scheme seems much better than just some
electric charging point along the way. But I do not know for sure,
that is why I ask.

Most cars are used for commuter traffic so an electric car would be
idle during the night and during the working hours with reasonable
currents, so charging the batteries is not a problem.

For long distance travel, either some fuel cell or gas turbine or
constant speed diesel auxiliary power would be required, unless
batteries are developed, that can accept a full charge during a 10
minute coffe/toilet break at a service station.

A standard 3 phase 16A@400V outlet can provide 1.8 kWh in 10 minutes
and from a 1500 DC (the maximum IEC low voltage limit) at 50 A (the
practical limit for a flexible cable) would provide 12.5 kWh in 10
minutes.

Paul

 

[krw]

Plain old arithmetic.

Three is greater than one.
Except for very large values of two.

One battery in the car, one being charged, and one spare for peak demand.

One being shipped back to where it can be used.

Plus, of course, the financial and overhead costs of making the service
available.

Multiple batteries obviously price electric vehicles out of existence.
Ain't gonna happen.

One battery prices them out of existence.

 

[legg]

Given current (or easily imaginable by an electronics engineer)
battery technology in electric cars, how long would it take for an
electric car to get a decent charge? Seems to me that there would
be some serious connection problems with respect to heat generated
by a massive amount of current flow required for charging. A
parking garage charging scheme seems much better than just some
electric charging point along the way. But I do not know for sure,
that is why I ask.

That's not how practical use of electric or hybrid vehicles is
expected to be maintained. Charging is presently a longer-term
activity undertaken when the vehicle is either not in use, or when
activity does not require full capacity of internal generation (...of
the hybrid).

There is some speculation that hybrid vehicles might even contribute
their surplus capacity profitably to the grid. 'Fueling' such vehicles
might more closely resemble current methods.

Different coupling methods for energy transfer have been considered,
including 'contact-free' versions. Obviously the hardware has to be
suited to the voltage, current and power levels required, and the type
of vehicle to it's intended application.

RL

 

[Rich Grise]

Says who?


Why is that?


Says who?

Admittedly, it's got some gotchas - like, how many different mounting
schemes will there be for a half-ton battery rack? The exchange
stations' inventory would cost a king's ransom, and there's schlepping
them (the battery packs) around from the rack to the car, and from
the car to the charger, and from the charger to inventory, that sort of
thing.

But figure out a way to make a profit at it, and the world will beat
a path to your door. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

Sure. I tried to order a Volkswagen with a nuclear engine but they
were out of stock.

John, in the ranks of troll baiters, I'd give you a rating of master. ;-P

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

Don't waste your time, John. It's another troll.

Is John Doe a place where female deer go to relieve themselves?[/QUOTE]

No, that'd be a Doe John, or in military parlance, John, Doe, 1 each.
;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

Your function in life - all of you - is to amuse me, if you can.

Oh, yeah? Amuse DIS! =:-O

;-)
Rich

 

[John Doe]

Don't waste your time, John. It's another troll.

That's not what your mother says, Asshole.

--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!





















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[John Doe]

Three is greater than one.

That is the deepest argument thus far.

One battery in the car, one being charged

At least you understand that rechargeable batteries must be
charged... But of course, batteries do not have to be owned in
order to be used and charged.

<snipped more nonsense>

Plus, of course, the financial and overhead costs of making the
service available.

Yes, businesses have financial and overhead costs... Uhg.

Ain't gonna happen.

Either you have been brainwashed, or you are just too old to think
outside of the box.

 

[John Doe]

Rich Grise <richgr... example.net> wrote:

Admittedly, [exchanging battery packs has] some gotchas - like,
how many different mounting schemes will there be for a
half-ton battery rack? The exchange stations' inventory would
cost a king's ransom, and there's schlepping them (the battery
packs) around from the rack to the car, and from the car to the
charger, and from the charger to inventory, that sort of thing.

Just imagine when one of them takes a dive from the fork truck.

The idea of a 500 pound battery rack and a fork truck sounds silly
to me. Even if the battery pack were that heavy, a reliable
removal/replacement system would be easy enough to devise.

It would be fun enough to have it tip over and weld to the forks
before exploding itself,

Possible, with an old geezer at the wheel...

but it would be just as interesting to have it fall all the way
to the ground,

Have you ever designed and built anything mechanical, Timmy? Was
the task extremely difficult for you?

and through a combination of breaking open and shorting out,
release all of its energy in a nicely short time period.

But in the real world... Lithium ion battery-powered devices are
EXTREMELY commonplace and their use is widespread.

In contrast, if this same procedure were employed for
transporting fuel

There is no need, Timmy.

The central reason batteries will never work, of course,

If you are so sure, Timmy, then no doubt you can provide pointers
to opinions from scientists in that field who agree with you?

... if the [lithium ion] battery fails, it's guaranteed to fail
spectacularly.

But in the real world... Lithium ion battery-powered devices are
EXTREMELY commonplace and widespread. The technology is
manageable. And of course, there are potentially better methods
for handling current technology and potentially better energy
storage devices on the way.

Apparently the subject is interesting enough for you all to troll
me for answers...

 

[John Doe]

Most cars are used for commuter traffic

Yup. When stopped (like in a traffic jam), they do not wear engine
parts, produce heat, or waste energy.

 

[GregS]

<snip>

Nor does my Prius and it uses plain old gas.

G=B2

Does your Prius have incandecent lamps in the tail lights ?
I thought it was odd they seem to have them. What a waste of energy sitting
in traffic, with brakes on.


greg

 

[Martin Brown]

It's not hard to build an ic engine that shuts down at red lights and
starts up when you need it. Or build a micro-hybrid, like a Prius but
with a smaller battery and an intermittent-duty electric motor... much
less weight and overhead than a Prius-type machine. All it would take
to make that sensible is $6 gasoline.

As the price of fuel rises, all sorts of evolutionary things will
happen to ic engine drive trains, incrementally, without inventing and
funding a whole new energy infrastructure.

I agree. BMW & Audi in Europe both have red light engine shutdown with
instant restart. It takes a bit of getting used to.

Europeans already pay 2x or some such what we pay for gas, and they
have adapted, and still mostly use liquid-fueled piston engines.

As do the Japanese and that is why their cars tend to be a lot more fuel
efficient. It is only in America where fuel is dirt cheap that people
buy vastly oversized urban assault vehicles. Japanese taxis moved to LPG
ages ago because the air in Tokyo was getting impossible to breathe.

It is remarkable that the modern car engine has not fundamentally
changed in 100 years: four stroke cycle, atomized fuel, pistons,
rings, crank, poppet valves, spark ignition.

Done right you can get 60mpg from a modern diesel saloon and still have
a respectable power to weight ratio. That aspect tends to suffer
extremely badly with all of the existing battery technologies.

And I am rather sceptical about the lifetime of deep discharge high
power batteries in regular use. Most of the rechargeables I have and
especially those in portable PCs die a horrible death after 3-4 years.
And I have seen too many problems with forklift truck battery
maintenance where the sheer weight of the batteries for low centre of
gravity is an advantage.

Regards,
Martin Brown