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Can't identify type of gate in diagram explaining inner workings of 555 timer chip!

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by John Albers, Apr 28, 2004.

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  1. John Albers

    John Albers Guest

    There is a really good graphical simulation of the inner worrkings of
    a 555 timer chip at http://www.williamson-labs.com/ under 555 on the
    left frame.

    However, I am trying to follow what is happening and think that I
    almost understand. I need some clarification of what type of logic
    gate is just before the Rst on the flip flop? It looks like an OR
    gate and the two little circles just in front look like inverters. If
    it is a straight OR gate, then I don't understand how the circuit
    would work because pin 4 is always held high and this would force the
    Rst to always be high also. If the little circles are invertors, then
    I don't understand why both of them need to be there. I am also
    assuming that the flip flop is the traditional RS flip flop.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank You
     
  2. Check out DeMorgan's Theorem. If you invert the inputs of a gate, it
    changes families and polarities. An OR gate becomes a NAND. Does that help
    you any?

    Cheers!

    Chip Shults
     
  3. Yes, the gate is an or gate with inverters on both its input. So the
    output goes high (true) if either input goes low.
     
  4. Thaas

    Thaas Guest

    John,

    When an OR gate is drawn with bubbled inputs it is actually a NAND
    gate. The representations are equivalent per De Morgan's theorem.

    When drawn as a bubbled OR gate the equation for inputs A & B with
    output C reads: NOT-A OR NOT-B = C. Drawn as a NAND the equation
    reads A AND B = NOT-C. The truth tables for these equations are of
    course identical.

    In other words drawing the circuit with a bubbled OR is saying "Either
    A or B low will cause a reset." Drawing it as a NAND would say " A
    and B must both be high to prevent a reset."
     
  5. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi John,

    But unfortunately it is a drawing error, the 555 does not work that way.
     
  6. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi John,

    Take a look at Tonys 555-tutor:
    <URL:http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/555/555.html>

    And/or (or should it be nand/nor :) get the datasheet for ICM7555 from
    Philips (page 2 has a nice drawing which should help you).

    Actually, it is a drawing_error_gate ;)
     
  7. Internally, the functions are implemented differently, but from a
    black box perspective, I think this is a functional description.
    Please elaborate on how this model is wrong.
     
  8. grahamk

    grahamk Guest

  9. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi John,

    Yup, but that is not what I am referring to.

    To reset the output of the 555, either the reset pin (4) must be "low"
    *OR* the voltage on the threshold pin must be above 2/3 Vcc.

    The "threshold comparator" output is "high" when the threshold pin (6)
    is above 2/3 Vcc.

    From this follows, that the NAND gate (OR w. inverted inputs) cannot
    work, which is probably what confused John Albers.

    Remove the topmost inverter-bubble on the OR gate and I will find the
    description functional :)
     
  10. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi Graham,
    OK, looked @ it, but I am wondering a bit as to why you thought _I_
    should, (since nothing new shoved up) ?

    (By the way, if you redraw the block schematic, nobody can accuse you of
    theft of copyrighted material :)
     
  11. The comparator shown for the threshold input is connected as
    inverting, so that a high input will produce a low on the input of the
    gate.

    According to the approximate internal schematic shown on page 1 of:
    http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM555.pdf
    if you consider Q17 to be the output of the threshold comparator, this
    comparator is connected to invert the polarity of the threshold
    input. Its collector or Q17 is wire ORed (negative active ORed) with
    the signal from the reset emitter follower to reset the flip flop when
    either pulls low. So the model is usably accurate as far as I can
    tell.
     
  12. John Albers

    John Albers Guest


    Thank You everyone for your input. I can see how the circuit works
    when the top bubble is removed from the input of the OR gate.
    However, during certain times in the cycle, bringing the RESET Pin (4)
    low will result in a 1 on both inputs of the RS flip flop. This is a
    bad thing, right?
     
  13. For any set reset flip flop and any given output, either set overrides
    reset or reset overrides set if both are applied at the same time. In
    the 555, reset overrides trigger (set) for both the output and the
    discharge pin. If threshold goes high at the same time that trigger
    is low, there is a battle between the collector current's of Q15 and
    Q6 (on figure 4-2 of the above link, so it is not so clear which of
    these wins the tug of war for the base voltage of Q16. It would be an
    interesting experiment to see which wins.
     
  14. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi John,

    Inverting ? Like in "let's say plus is minus and v.v. without telling
    anyone" ? ;)

    What on earth are you smoking, I want some ;)

    Please reread what I wrote and compare with
    <URL:http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_555.htm>
    (And please read the "+"sign as positive ;)

    And to repeat myself...
    Remove the topmost inverter-bubble on the OR gate or it is wrong, bad,
    defect, unusable, incorrect and pretty damn ugly ;-P

    We are discussing the williamson-labs drawing, not anything else (and
    absolutely not a part of it out of context).

    You cannot just compare a part of the circuit and expect the logic to
    be correct.

    Just take a _close_ look at the williamson-labs drawing, anybody with
    just a hint of logic insight can tell the error - which is why the OP
    wondered in the first place.

    Do get some more sleep, if you cannot see it, I have much higher
    thoughts about your abilities than what your postings in this thread
    could lead to :)
     
  15. Soeren

    Soeren Guest

    Hi John,
    Nope, it is build for it :)
     
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