Can you help me develop my invention?

[donkey]

I know the feeling. anyways I will try to look at ways to communicate with devices and see what I can find. I have had a thought though depending on your requirements you might be able to use wifi AND bluetooth using a bridge. it may be a bit messy to start with but depending on what the idea is you might get the best of both worlds. range and portability

 

[cjdelphi]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/APC220-K...162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b2715f8a

That will give you the combination of transmitting up to 1km under the correct conditions and relatively cheap for what they're offering...

But Why not tell us some of your "idea" and we'll keep telling you how much of it has already been thought up of and done...

 

[cjdelphi]

Hell, why not 2.8km!

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-APP...048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4163ba7fd8


the point is.... you're just dangling bait to a lot of fish right now, and we're waiting to see if the bait is actually food or a plastic fish....

 

[cjdelphi]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10dBm-10...279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1ec8b37f

or something like that for a really low power source, eg have it run for days on end from a couple of AA's....

 

[donkey]

The communication to the receiver device may be only a very simple data transfer, it does not have to transfer large data at all ( I am hoping that this will mean less complexity thus smaller size of receiver component, which is an important factor.)

define not large amount of data. back when the internet was first thought of 56kbps was not even thought of(from memory it was 13kbps)
these days if you have 56kbps then you have to call your isp to get the line fixed.
getting data sent over a secure network can pretty simple butif you haveto encrypt data, ordecide to put a passphrase at the start to make it go through this can take up data.
seriously getting to know the project is the best idea.

I could tell you I want a house for 2males..... if I leave out the fact its for 2 male dogs then we could be here all day just because you think that adding "dogs" will reveal a big secret. We have and are trying to help you but if the best you got for us is a small transmitter with "low" data transfer then we could be here all year (and its nearly christmas dude

 

[poorfornow]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10dBm-10...279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1ec8b37f

or something like that for a really low power source, eg have it run for days on end from a couple of AA's....

Thanks cjdelphi,

This one looks like it is getting towards the size I would be looking at, however 2 AA's would be largely out of the question.

However I have a number of similar units in mind which can take larger parts and so 2 AA's may be applicable for extensions to the main idea.

For now I am trying to get the components as small as possible, perhaps to fit into a space of 10mm cubed. Could this component be crafted into a different physically shaped space, rather than a flat rectangle? Could it be powered with the smallest button cell?

It would only need to receive a single signal from a mobile about four times in a day.

If it could run on such a button cell with such a data transfer, how long could such battery last?

The longer range components you kindly referenced are facinating little machines but I will stick to a maximum required range of say an "average house" size.

Regards.

 

[poorfornow]

define not large amount of data. back when the internet was first thought of 56kbps was not even thought of(from memory it was 13kbps)
these days if you have 56kbps then you have to call your isp to get the line fixed.
getting data sent over a secure network can pretty simple butif you haveto encrypt data, ordecide to put a passphrase at the start to make it go through this can take up data.
seriously getting to know the project is the best idea.

I could tell you I want a house for 2males..... if I leave out the fact its for 2 male dogs then we could be here all day just because you think that adding "dogs" will reveal a big secret. We have and are trying to help you but if the best you got for us is a small transmitter with "low" data transfer then we could be here all year (and its nearly christmas dude

Hi Donkey,

I would need the simplest of my proposed devices (and the one I am using as the benchmark as it were for other extensions) to receive a simple on off signal from a phone and possibly around 4 different ones, where the receiver would process either of the four, in four simple ways. This would be what I mean by simple data. The signals would need to occur around 4 times per day and I would want the receivers power to last for at least 2 months. The range would have to be no more than an 'average house' in distance but could be as little as 6 feet if the power and size of components was too great. I would hope to fit the receiver and power into around 10mm cubed of space, though the space would not be cubical hopefully.

If I needed to use bluetooth due to size and power (including longevity of power source) issues then I may have to change data requirements to allow the bluetooth to tether only to my phone and disclude others etc I am not sure about this as I have not managed to find an answer as to whether I can make my bluetooth connection exclusive to a phone and what that would entail regarding size and power of components.

Regards.

 

[davenn]

............Could it be powered with the smallest button cell?

It would only need to receive a single signal from a mobile about four times in a day.
If it could run on such a button cell with such a data transfer, how long could such battery last?

Regards.

not long .... regardless of if it only has to receive several times a day, the receiver has to be turned on ALL the time for it to be able to receive a signal. The small button batteries dont supply much current.
Key finder receivers are a great example, you will end up spending a fortune in batteries

Dave

 

[poorfornow]

not long .... regardless of if it only has to receive several times a day, the receiver has to be turned on ALL the time for it to be able to receive a signal. The small button batteries dont supply much current.
Key finder receivers are a great example, you will end up spending a fortune in batteries

Dave

Thanks Dave,

That alone could be a reason not to go forward with this idea.

 

[CocaCola]

define not large amount of data. back when the internet was first thought of 56kbps was not even thought of(from memory it was 13kbps)

56kbps or 13kbps that was blazing fast for the early days online (not Internet proper) My first online modem was only 300bp, back in my early BBS days and I downloaded a bunch of stuff, when they rolled out 1200bp modems it was like heaven...

Back in the early days you could actually watch the data stream as it came in and scroll across the computer screen and it wasn't much faster than credits at the end of a movie... I spent many an hour doing just that...

 

[davenn]

56kbps or 13kbps that was blazing fast for the early days online (not Internet proper) My first online modem was only 300bp, back in my early BBS days and I downloaded a bunch of stuff, when they rolled out 1200bp modems it was like heaven...

Back in the early days you could actually watch the data stream as it came in and scroll across the computer screen and it wasn't much faster than credits at the end of a movie... I spent many an hour doing just that...

them were the days

During the '80's I was building and selling modems for other puter users, using the "World Modem" chip ... 1200bps from BBS 75bps to BBS

Dave

 

[poorfornow]

I have seen a product available on the market called loc8tor. It involves rf tags which are attached to things you want to locate and things you want to monitor as to whether they are within a certain range.

The tags have two modes. One is the locate mode and the other is the alert mode. The alert mode requires constant transmission between the tracking device and the tag. Even with this constant ON alert mode, the manufacturers and a number of testimonies seem to indicate a battery life (2 LR54's) at 2 months.

In locate mode, with one locate per day, the battery life is 9 months estimated.

Am I wrong in thinking that the locate mode involves the transmitter asking the tag, "where are you" information? If so, then surely I could have a phone talking with my receivers without the battery drain of always on. Even with always on (alert mode) I may be able to attain 2 months before considering battery replacement.

The range for this system seems pretty awesome as well.

What do you guys think?

Regards.

 

[poorfornow]

Hi again,

Just realised my probable error regarding the loc8tor system, tag battery life and it's parallel with my idea.

Realised that the 'locate' signals are initiated by the tags and so they can probably go into a low power mode otherwise, whereas if they were having to constantly listen for commands then they could not do this.

I wonder if the 'alert' mode is really 'always' on, or just on every x number of seconds.

I 'alert' mode lasted at least 2 months at power up every 2 seconds then that would be ok for my needs.

Any comments guys?

 

[donkey]

once again without giving us full details we can give you approximations at best.
depending on the loc8tor you could probably hackit and use it. depending on what you want it to drive it could last 60seconds or 3months. depending on whether we have another fuel crisis prices could go up... all speculation but true

 

[poorfornow]

once again without giving us full details we can give you approximations at best.
depending on the loc8tor you could probably hackit and use it. depending on what you want it to drive it could last 60seconds or 3months. depending on whether we have another fuel crisis prices could go up... all speculation but true

Hi Donkey,

The receiver (or transceiver) unit would have to be optimally within a house distance away from my phone. The receiver unit could be only 6 feet away if a house distance made it too big and too power hungry. The unit, would have to fit optimally in a 1cm cubed are of space. The unit would have to be 'open for receipt' , of a, "switch on a secondary function" message from my phone at least every 2 seconds for perhaps 14 hours per day (somewhat negotiable parameters). The unit would have to be uniquely identifiable (exclusive/tethered) to my phone alone. The unit power source should last at least 2 months (negotiable). The unit power source should also be very small such as the smallest type of button cell possible for these requirements. The unit does not have to send any other messages to the phone apart from I am available for command.

Much like the loc8tor tags. The secondary function that must follow from the transmissions between the tag and the base station (finder unit or whatever they call it, in my case a mobile phone) does not really matter in terms of deciding whether such devices are available or can be made. The secondary function is the nub of my potential invention and is a different story for now ( that secondary function would require little battery power, lets say, switch on a micro led)

You mentioned hacking the loc8tor and upon reading about that device I realised that it may fit my needs. But the main question revolves around battery life. The company that makes loca8tor reckon on 2 months with always on or 'alert' mode with their transceiver tags. As I said I have read testimonies, purportedly from people who have used the system and many are estimating longer tag battery life. However I do not know at what intervals the tansceiver is sending out a signal (remember that I might require every 2 seconds). I also do not know whether these tags are always operating i.e. over 24 hour period (because I do not need the whole 24 hours daily). I also do not know whether this system would require more power than mine as it is designed for long range and for pets which may require detection in deep forest etc (and therefore needs more power).

Can you shed any light on these kinds of questions?

 

[BobK]

Let's think about this. You need a device that is 1 cubic cm. and can operate as a receiver 14 hours a day for 2 months on a single battery, which needs to be a small button cell based on the size. Have you ever seen such a device? I think it would be great to have an FM radio that small that lasted that long on a button cell, wouldn't you? So why has no one produced such a thing?

Bob

 

[poorfornow]

Let's think about this. You need a device that is 1 cubic cm. and can operate as a receiver 14 hours a day for 2 months on a single battery, which needs to be a small button cell based on the size. Have you ever seen such a device? I think it would be great to have an FM radio that small that lasted that long on a button cell, wouldn't you? So why has no one produced such a thing?

Bob

Hi Bob,

As I said, I am a noob in this area. I am on this forum to seek advice from those who are experts in the field. I have already mentioned the Loc8tor system and their tags are around that small and their tags operate all day and their tags use two lr54 button. So yes it would be great to have an FM radio that small that lasted that long on a button cell. I am sure that loc8tor are happy with them.

If you understand something about the loca8tor tags that doesn't seem similar to my required spec then please enlighten me. I can imagine a few but I do not know and so my last post asked the questions I felt necessary to compare the two.

Remember I am talking about one pulse (communication) every two seconds or so for those 2 months and not necessarily for the whole day, not a 'radio' on all day.

Just need some guidance as to what is possible. I am not suggesting that I know that this is possible only asking if it is. However I am not sitting back and accepting any answer either. When Dave led me to understand the 'always on' requirement and that battery would not last, I initially thought that was the potential end to my idea but since finding the loc8tor system, I realised that it still may yet be possible, but not knowing exactly how they implement their 'alert' (always on) tag settings, I cannot make an informed enough comparison.
Regards.

 

[CocaCola]

Remember I am talking about one pulse (communication) every two seconds or so for those 2 months and not necessarily for the whole day, not a 'radio' on all day.

There is more to this, but lets keep it simple just to get the point across...

The loc8tor gives an 'up to' 2 month battery time if detection is used once each day, lets assume maybe 10-20 pings to locate the device per day, over the course of 2 months that is give or take 600-800 pings...

If you want your devices to ping out every 2 seconds for 14 hours, that is about 25200 pings a day...

Now if the loc8tor's batteries are dead after 600-800 pings, how long do you suspect your batteries will last trying to do 25200 pings a day assuming everything else equal? By my quick math says about 27 minutes, but I would suspect even less...

There is of course more to it than this, but the short of it is that it's really Apples to Oranges...

 

[poorfornow]

There is more to this, but lets keep it simple just to get the point across...

The loc8tor gives an 'up to' 2 month battery time if detection is used once each day, lets assume maybe 10-20 pings to locate the device per day, over the course of 2 months that is give or take 600-800 pings...

If you want your devices to ping out every 2 seconds for 14 hours, that is about 25200 pings a day...

Now if the loc8tor's batteries are dead after 600-800 pings, how long do you suspect your batteries will last trying to do 25200 pings a day assuming everything else equal? By my quick math says about 27 minutes, but I would suspect even less...

There is of course more to it than this, but the short of it is that it's really Apples to Oranges...

Hi CocaCola,

Thanks for chipping in. I do not think that the loc8tor tags simply ping/locate, once per day. There are two modes for the pet monitoring system they implement. There is the 'locate', which is a checking in mode and is quoted at 9 months working life for this mode and 'alert' mode which is the 2 month estimate. It is the latter mode which presumably is the 'always on' mode and it is designed to 'continuously' monitor the whereabouts of your pet to ensure that it does not go outwith your preferred boundary. Surely your description of the devices tag's ping requirements is more a description of the tag on 'locate' mode.

Regards.

 

[poorfornow]

can be hidden and rotated as security requirements change.74HC14D

Hi nannasin28,

Can you expand please on your link? Can you tell me how this relates to my queries?

Regards.