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can I start dc motor with (ultra)concentrator and manual switch

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by isosika, Jul 20, 2020.

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  1. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    Hi, I did build as a child serial dc induction motor powered with flaslight battery working fine (this is almost all my undestanding about electronics).Now I did build same kind of hobby motor but bigger one. Armature winding is 1/5x1/5 inch bar, 4 rounds/armaturepole (3 poles). My hope is to use it with car battery. Inrush current can be many hunders of amperes- too much even this thick "wire".

    Questions of dummy:

    Can I simulate starter motor centrifugial switch with a manual big ampere switch just looking the motor spininning fast and estimate enough cemf already there? Inrush current going to (ultra)concentrator in the beginning? I am confused about wiring diagrams I have seen. Is it so that starting/auxliliary field gets current from the concentrator discharge? To my mind diagrams are drawn so that the armature winding, the main field winding and the auxilary field winding are connected directly to the power supply!? Because I have not ability to interpret diagrams I wonder that. It would be easier to understand to me to see a diagram where there is a separate circuitry with cocentrator
    and auxliary winding, this switched off and main field and armature circuitry conneced to the supply.
    Even then where armature current comes initially when cemf is just rising? Too many switches! Put it simple : I am fully diagram unliteral!
    Tanks a lot if somebody is kind enough to answer!
     
  2. Bluejets

    Bluejets

    4,868
    1,017
    Oct 5, 2014
    Never heard of a concentrator before or why there is a centrifugal switch.
    As for the rest, best if you do some searching on Google for some recognised DC motor theory. i.e. not instructables or some hacked up youtube video from some 10 year old.
     
  3. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    [
     
  4. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    Thank you bluejet saving my life (if it is worth of saving!).
    I understand you must be right. My too stupid "idea" was that prhaeps for examplre
    500F ultraconcetrator is charging slowly enough to do work like that. I understand now that this is not the case. Btw. in fact I was doing as you advice, tried to get information using internet (one way) other ways were not working for me.
    I understand now that this forum is for experts not for stupidos. Nowbody is not explaining basic things
    supposed to be common knowledge. I do not even know where to get resistors to stand this kind high amperes/wats.
    Thank you vey much.
     
  5. Bluejets

    Bluejets

    4,868
    1,017
    Oct 5, 2014
    On the contrary, many here will help in many ways without any prejudice.
    Gets difficult as you may imagine, when faced with terms that are self made and detail that is non existent or so far out there that it makes no sense.
    Many times there are language barriers but many will try their best to get though that hurdle.
     
  6. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    I understand your point.
    What I did write was an example about as you say....and detail that is non existent or so far out there that it makes no sense.....

    I understand that the main problem is too high inrush armature current because a thick wire armature has very low resistance. Ofcourse we can get down too high inrush armature current at least using resistors this is possible but how- too hard for me. My "make no sense" thinkig tried to find a shortcut-failure.

    At least changing serial winding to compound winding and providing permanent "artificial" small load would prevent runaway situation.
    Rotor inertia is not problem with light rotor in my case.
    And other perhaps "make no sense" idea coud be to start
    the motor with weak battery as cordless drill battery then the motor woud work also with stroger battery because cemf is already there (perhaps impossible to implement).
    Anyway, seems I must learn electronics some amout.

    This should not be too hard. For exampe I studied liver enzymes to be able to take right gene test to find my medicines not possible to use simultaneousty (atorvastatin and amlodopin I found) without any medical background. Doctor accepted my conclusions and changed atorvastatin to rosuvastatin. Sudying and learning is always possible and even fun.
     
  7. hevans1944

    hevans1944 Hop - AC8NS

    4,617
    2,156
    Jun 21, 2012
    There is definitely a language barrier here. For example, you said "I did build as a child serial dc induction motor"... What does that even mean? A "dc induction motor" is an oxymoron. Only AC motors can be induction motors, and not all of them are.

    I surmise that the "500F ultraconcentrator" you refer to in post #4 is really just a 500F super-capacitor. What you intend to use that for is anyone's guess. Why don't you tell us what you are trying to DO instead of describing your (mostly) failed attempts to do it?

    DC motors have been around a LOOOONG time, and there is very little room for improvement. The addition of Hall-effect sensors and microcontrollers to allow brush-less armature switching was the latest improvement I am aware of. There could have been other "breakthrough" technologies developed that haven't been widely published yet. If so, please tell us about them and how you propose to use them to DO what you are trying to DO. And, yes, learn plenty of electronics so you can have a dialog with other EP members who would be delighted to help you. These forum are not just for experts; beginners are welcomed too. It would also help if you were to continue to learn better English.

    BTW, I told my cardiologists to take their statins and shove 'em. The alleged correlation between cholesterol and heart disease was the conclusion of a defective study that is still being used to promulgate the prescribing of statins. I happen to be one of the few people (about one in every five hundred) who is allergic to statins, any of which causes me severe muscle pain. But it's good that you and your doctor can communicate. I don't think medical schools teach doctors how to do that anymore.
     
    isosika likes this.
  8. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    Dear heavens,
    please read:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5837234/

    and specially the part "Combining statins with cytochrome p450 inhibitors undergoes extensive pre-systemic metabolisms in the gut wall and liver ". A fact is that imf you use inhibitor medicine of some enzyme and other medicine needing it can increase in your body too much. I hope that these words of english are clear enough. This has nothing to do with statins in general for exaple rosuvastatin is good with amlodopin. Also it woud be good for you to understand that with statins have different problems too than you pneraps have.

    (even my english is too bad) that you understand
     
  9. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    Now my tablet even my tablet use was too tricky or me.
    I tried to write the in the previoubs post:

    Dear hevans1944, please,read: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5837234/


    and specially the words in the study : "....The Food and Drug Administration has enforced that people taking simvastatin with amlodipine should take a maximum dose of no more than 20 mg because of the risk of myopathy. ......"


    A fact is that if you use inhibitor medicine to some enzyme other medicine needing just this enzyme to metabolize can increase in your body too much. This has nothing to do with statins and blood pressure medicines in general for example rosuvastatin is good with amlodopin. Atovastain is very much the same as simvastatin (also told the study, I found after my own study) . It has been long time ago found that using simvastatin with amlodopin needes special care. Also it woud be good for you to understand that with statins have different problems also than you perhaps have or have not.


    I know this all far off the topic as to this forum, sorry.

    However, It is a good advice what I got about learning english anyway. Must be glad to get some useful advices.


    Excuse my english. I hope that these words of "english" are clear enough (perhaps not)
     
  10. hevans1944

    hevans1944 Hop - AC8NS

    4,617
    2,156
    Jun 21, 2012
    Clear enough for a layman like me to understand that you understand the negative effects that the regimens of two different drugs prescribed simultaneously can have on the enzyme balance in the human body. I take about a dozen different prescribed drugs every day, and some of them do not play well together. During the time my cardiologist was trying out various statin drugs on me, one drug in particular warned that I had to avoid grapefruit and grapefruit juice. IIRC, there was little or no detailed explanation of the consequences if I failed to follow those directions. Since I seldom consumed grapefruit, juice or otherwise, it didn't affect me. It was the statins that bothered me. I finally gave up on them. Maybe if I increase my daily intake of asparagus, broccoli, and other assorted vegetables that are supposed to help "clean out" the arteries, I will live longer. Worth a try, because I do like such veggies.

    You are lucky to understand enough biochemistry to help your doctor "select the right drugs for you." I wish there were more endocrinologists available to me and my wife (she has Lupus), but the only one we found that we could trust no longer practices medicine. It's a difficult branch of medicine to learn and practice.

    Good luck with your tablet. Perhaps you have physical problems that limit your ability to type. If so, I apologize for being insensitive to that.

    You still haven't told us what you are trying to DO with your three-pole DC motor.
     
  11. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
     
  12. isosika

    isosika

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    Jul 20, 2020
    Indeed, it is difficult with doctors. Nowadays I say to everobody: never go to dotor if you do not know your problem and right cure in advance. Find cure first, doctor has right to write a prensciption following your advice.

    You can't ask more from other people than yourself (doctors included).Too many cases making me think like this.

    This seems first to be arrogant.It is not, doctors must know something small about thousands of diseases and even more medicines and he has some 15 minits for you. You can study your one own case weeks or moths easily, a big difference. Even good doctors have not in general knowledge such things that genes decide are you slow or fast metabolizer with some important liver enzyme. If fast you may need different dose of a medicine than slow and so on. Gene tests are not common when presciping medicines.


    I just mentioned my studies because I hope learning curve with electronic can be fast too. I even think that my previous posting about dc motor shows some learning comparing with the first post.

    Few days to study between posts. Learning about liver enzymes and studying all my own medicines (not few) took couple of weeks.

    So, I was hoping that with litle bit help I can learn from zero level to elemntary level in electronics, too. From text:



    https://www.electricaleasy.com/2014/01/starting-methods-of-dc-motor.htm


    I read:


    ". ..........Very small dc motors, however, may be started directly by connecting them to the supply with the help of a contactor or a switch. .........."


    Well, my motor i fairly small (diamerer of armature 4 inchs, lenght of laminated armature 2 inches, only heavy thing is winding (thicness).In addition the motor do not need to start with heavy load. The motor is ready for high current low voltage (short time).

    Can of coure run with cordless drill battery, if car battery is impossible.


    I know about conventional resistor set starting (3-pole, 2-pole). I want build my own as simple as possible suitabe to my small scale case.

    Perhaps I get some hint here, perhaps not.

    Even with drill battery I wonder way to avoid shortening battery.

    Fuse prevents shorting but prevents using,too.

    Perhaps some thermistor? Do not know.


    The motor is not for any realworld purpose.

    I done it (not ready) for mental purpose. I have had 3 strokes and lot more issues.

    I just must spend time so that there has something else to think than sick feelings. I was lifting weights as young, want to build a motor capable lift weight, not necessarily what I lifted as young (470 lbs).
     
  13. isosika

    isosika

    9
    0
    Jul 20, 2020
    Sorry to reply to my own post. I must correct some misunderstandings.
    I am not failed anything what I do with concrete motor constuction, just figuring out possibIe ways to proceed. I have failed to use basic common plain english. I have failed using wrong terminology and expained everything unclearly and mispelling is my habit.
    Also I said I have no knowledge about electronics. I did forget one old learning project which was digital technique. Is digital techique real electronics? To my mind it is not. I designed a card to computer ISA bus (there is no such thing any more). It was mainly programming (no electronics), hdl- language for fpga chip, Lattice ispLSI 1032E (funcion not relevat here). In fact I got one positive experience, nobody teaching me the use of oscilloscope, still I found error in my program with it. I changed few lines of code and it was working, still do not understand why. To my mind new lines I wrote did exatly the same functionatily as original but different way.

    Also I am not reinventing dc motor. On the contrary. I have allergy to the words motor control card, variac, thyristor....
    I just aiming a very simple solution. Huge wattage resistor bank-no!
    My ideas are wrong,I know. For example:
    I do not understand why I can't to do as follows:

    -I have 2 powers parallel in a way cordless drill battery (voltage dropped to 12v with resistor) and car battery.
    -first I switch on drill battery ( fuse 10a to be sure)
    - soon motor is spinning fast to delop enough cemf
    - runaway do not occur (compound winding and some artficial
    small load on shaft)
    -I switch then car battery on
    - after some time I switch off drill battery and look explosition.

    Fast intiutive thinking, of course something wrong.
    Really simple, not to build better dc motor ever.
    Only using 2 switches. As simpe as cyp 450 enzymes.
     
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