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Can flexible non mettalic cable be used on flow switch

Discussion in 'Security Alarms' started by Nick Markowitz, Oct 27, 2004.

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  1. Ok my turn to ask a question saw flexible non mettalic
    conduit made of gray plastic used to protect flow swicth and tamper switch.
    On a fire system.
    I typically use this stuff for AC units ,Hotwater tanks,machinery boat docks
    etc were i need flexabilty of conductors and water resistance but not
    physical protection of conductors.

    if it is physcial protection NEC code says EMT IMC RC
    MC AC/BX Greenfield or Liquid tight -metal with plastic over it and sealed
    connectors that assure grounding if tamper swicth is in a pit which would
    get wet ocassionally which are all metal
    seems to me the non mettalic stuff would not provide for circuit integrity
    NFPA72 calls for to flow and tampers.
    have checkd with several AHJ and they all seem to think my way that it must
    be mettalic protection not plastic.
    have inqurys into NFPA and waiting an opinion from engineers

    Opinions. any one know were it was leaglly used in this situation ?


    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  2. I forgot to mention this flex could be used other places in system like
    heats in a garage etc area that might get wet etc.
    but the circuits in these cases do not need the assured circuit integriy
    and can be run in open red fire cable ( Unless local code forbids) unlike
    for flow switches and tampers

    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  3. Jim Rojas

    Jim Rojas Guest

    You might be able to get away with it if you have a seperate conductor as
    your ground. But doing so, you will need to follow the appropriate grounding
    procedures.

    When grounding multiple devices, you cannot use the same chassis lug for the
    tie down, 2 seperate lugs are required, or one lug per grounding wire. An
    example of this can be seen in some larger fire panels.

    To make sure, contact the AHJ, they have the final say on these matters.

    Jim Rojas
     
  4. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest


    Has to be metal. There is liquid tight BX available
    (http://www.easternwire.com/lt-met-home.html). We use that for areas that
    are subject to moisture.


    --
    Frank Olson
    http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
    Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
    You can read the ASA FAQ at
    http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm
     
  5. Jim Rojas

    Jim Rojas Guest

    I think it went under the name of "Sealtite" for the BX with plastic
    coating. That's what I used in NYC, when I did fire alarms.

    Jim Rojas
     
  6. G. Morgan

    G. Morgan Guest

    alt.security.alarms

    Of course this method is negated when hooked to a "grounded" plastic
    box! <ducking> :)


    -Graham

    Remove the 'snails' from my email
     
  7. looks like something else this company did wrong on the install. besides
    wiring flow and tamper together and they hired the supposed alarm experts
    here in Pittsburgh and got bad info all the way down the road on this
    install.
    its pretty bad when you hire expertise and get slop.


    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  8. G. Morgan

    G. Morgan Guest

    alt.security.alarms
    My comment on plastic boxes was an "inside joke" that you must have
    missed (two years old).

    Frank is right, the conduit has to be conductible so it can detect a
    jacket cut-- thus a short to ground. Among other reasons the NFPA
    has.

    Flow and tamper are always separate zones. I hope they didn't wire a
    flow circuit in series with the tamper contacts..... that is wrong.

    What "experts" did you or "they" hire? Obviously they were not.
    Contact Michael Baker if you need code advice.






    -Graham

    Remove the 'snails' from my email
     
  9. I was called in originally to hook this mess up to central station and found
    all the problems and notified all involved before a tragedy resulted and i
    am now working wth AHJ and original contractor to get all issues resolved.
    fell bad for this phone company starting into fire alarm buisness they realy
    got screwed over.


    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  10. G. Morgan

    G. Morgan Guest

    alt.security.alarms

    It sounds like you got screwed... **** the phone company... they
    should stick to phones.


    -Graham

    Remove the 'snails' from my email
     
  11. yea your right about that one another example of some one wanting to get
    into a high liability buisness and not doing due diligence . thank god i
    found this mess
    there are just too man clowns in Pa. tat have no uisness touching life
    safety systems.

    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  12. Nick,

    NFPA 72 requires circuit integrity monitoring, which is provided by the
    system manufacturer. As you know the minimum requirements are to indicate a
    trouble condition on an open circuit or single ground fault.

    As to wiring methods and materials, NFPA 70 does not prohibit the use of
    flexible non metallic conduit in this application. The requirement is to
    protect the circuit conductors using building construction, a solid guard,
    or raceway.

    NFPA 70-2002 760.52 ... In metal raceways or rigid nonmetallic conduit where
    passing through a floor or wall to a height of 2.1 m (7 ft) above the floor,
    unless adequate protection can be afforded by building construction such as
    detailed in 760.52(B)(1) or unless an equivalent solid guard is provided.

    I hope this helps,

    Mike

    --
    Michael B. Baker, SET
    Michael Baker & Associates Inc
    Seminars - Design - Inspection
    PO Box 737
    Gladstone, OR 97027-0737
    503-657-8888 v
    503-655-1014 f
    ET News® http://www.etnews.org
     
  13. I was looking specifically for wiring to the tamper and flow switch.

    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
  14. I've found nothing prohibiting its use on flow and valve position switches
    so long as the liquidtite raceway is limited to 6' lengths.
     
  15. But the non mettalic liquid tight is not listed for physical protectection
    per NEC I can not use it electrically were physical protection is required.
    when last NFPA72 99 was written this material was not yet on market which
    tends to make me think it would not be recognised.and NFPA has not been
    doing there homework.

    --
    Nick Markowitz Jr.
    Owner
    Markowitz Electic Protection
    Private Industry Fire Investigator.

    Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
    Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
    Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
    Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
    Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

    "To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
     
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