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Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

Discussion in 'Hobby Electronics' started by Don McKenzie, Jul 22, 2013.

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  1. Don McKenzie

    Don McKenzie Guest

    Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

    On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called
    “The Ideal Wholesale NBN Market”. Simon Hackett, Internode founder

    This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the build cost, build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN
    could be lowered (perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire existing design and by applying the fruits of
    some lateral thinking about what is really needed to make the network work – and what the network can do without.


    Don McKenzie

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  2. Great presentation! Must-'watch' (listen/read) material for NBN
    proponents and opponents alike!

    Very refreshing to see such a common-sense presentation about the
    financial, business, usage, technical, etc.. aspects, without a
    political agenda.

    Be sure to also read the comments, especially the further comments
    from Simon Hackett.
  3. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

  4. Damian

    Damian Guest

    For obvious reasons. Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects
    forever on top of budget blow outs.
    He's capable of creative thinking and come up with better solutions. And
    FTTN is nothing new. Turnball didn't invent it, he's promoting it.
    His idea is cost effective and doesn't hinder the future full fibre network

    On the other hand, you don't believe in FTTN, FTTC, FTTH etc etc.
    You believe in leaving the PSTN, POTS as it is, the same way you believe in
    leaving the climate change as it is.

    The problem is you ain't gonna be around to get your arse kicked if you
    happen to be dead wrong, 'cos you will be already dead dead.

    NBN FTTH has been a real white elephant giant tortoise so far, and I'm bit
    sceptical about the catch phrase of 'fibre on a copper budget'.
    Sounds way too optimistic and unrealistic, but can lead to real solutions on
    a much lower budget than the current white elephant.

    Turnball's solutions aint' that bad, considering out current budget issues.

    Oh, you violent violent man!!! :))
    I'm hoping to find a way to introduce you to Carl William's cell mate. :)
  5. keithr

    keithr Guest

    Turnbull is a money man not a techie which explains his priorities.
  6. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
    was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.
    But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.
    He didn’t with that stupid FTTN approach.

    And he didn’t come up with a damned thing either,
    let alone any creative thinking. FTTN was what was
    proposed by the Dud long before he even got to
    be PM and when he discovered that no one was
    actually stupid enough to tender to build it, he
    went for FTTP regardless of the cost in a desperate
    attempt to preserve whatever vestige of credibility he
    could manage out of that complete and utter fiasco.
    He's not promoting a damned thing, he's stupidly saying
    that that is what the coalition will now do instead of flogging
    off what had been built of the NBN and going for wireless instead.
    Pigs arse it is given that it will have to be replaced by FTTP eventually.
    But dramatically increases the cost of the FTTP we will have eventually.
    That is a bare faced like. I just don’t see any reason to be
    spending anything like $50B NOW when most of us have
    a very viable broadband service if we want it.

    It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband
    service to those who can't currently have one using whatever
    makes the most sense with those who can't currently have
    a decent broadband service.
    No I don’t. I know that most are already using
    voip and mobiles for most of their phone calls
    and that it makes absolutely no sense whatever
    to be spending anything like $50B providing
    a phone service over the NBN when so few
    actually use the PSTN for most of their phone
    calls anymore. It makes a lot more sense to
    leave the PSTN in place than it ever does to
    rip it all out and replace it with FTTP.
    I have enough of a clue to realise that even if Australia
    shut down all its power stations overnight, and banned
    all cars overnight and everyone either walked or rode
    a bike everywhere they wanted to go, that that would
    have absolutely no effect what so ever on the world climate.
    I won't be wrong on what effect whatever Australia does has on world
    Yeah, its just another mindlessly glib line.
    What he proposes with regard to doing FTTP significantly
    cheaper isnt. The very fundamental problem with what he
    proposes tho is that the cost of whats in each home or
    premises is only a tiny part of the total cost of the NBN.

    The real reason the cost to the consumer keeps rising
    over time in that graph from the NBN is because it has
    to be done like that otherwise no one would ever be
    stupid enough to sign up for an NBN service when
    they can keep using the broadband they already
    have for a MUCH lower cost.

    That’s also why the NBN has gotten Telstra to rip
    out all the copper and cable, so the consumer has
    no choice but to use the NBN if they want a
    broadband service other than wireless.
    No, not that much lower, essentially because the
    much simpler approach to the boxes in the house
    is only a tiny part of the cost of the NBN.
    Completely fucking useless in fact.
    There are no current budget issues when the plug is pulled
    on stupiditys like the NBN and Gonski and all the other
    spending like a drunken sailor that Labor has done ever
    since the voters were actually stupid enough to make
    the Dud PM.
    I didn’t say I'd to that myself.
    Taint gunna happen, he's never gunna get out now.
  7. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    He's a lot more than just a money man.

    He's also a terminal fuckwit on climate change alone.
    Nope. His priority in this case is to produce some marginally
    plausible way to bullshit the coalition's way out of their
    predicament now that someone has managed to get it thru
    his thick skull that his original claim that wireless can do
    anything that the NBN can do is complete and utter bullshit.
  8. Damian

    Damian Guest

    Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the whole
    country without fibre??!!
    I find it hard to believe!!!
    Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and rollout
    It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS that
    he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre network,
    But, that's still debatable.
    That's probably the best he can do. He ain't got no chance stopping the NBN
    and leaving the things as it is.
    Show me where he proposed FTTN initially!!
    Can't find such record and can't remember him making an FTTN proposal.
    I only remember Turnball going on and on about it long before he made it
    into a coalition broadband policy announcement recently.
    Coalition won't be able to shut the NBN, even if they come into power by a
    landslide majority.
    It's already begun and legally they can't stop it.
    Sensible approach for them to cut the cost of the project and the drag, is
    to implement Turnball's FTTN plan.
    That is doable, but not possible to shut the whole fibre NBN project. It's
    gone too far politically, economically and legally for that.
    Yes, the keyword is 'eventually'.
    Possibly,...... but you are in no place to predict the outcomes of the
    future economic circumstances and new technologies that may reduce the cost
    of FTTP implementation. It's better approach than the silly drag & the
    budget inflation that they've created with the current version of the NBN.
    When future spending cuts will kick in for all the spending on NBN, we may
    be fighting with our teeth and claws to stay on reasonably good living
    And what is that method that makes most sense according to you?!!
    Do you have a version of fast broadband for the country or your solution is
    'do something'?!
    Turnball's approach still leaves some parts of PSTN, won't it?!
    Besides the outcomes of an NBN is much much more than just providing a
    phone service.
    It's primary outcome is the far wider bandwidth via fibreoptics, which open
    up the path to super fast internet, which may open up opportunities for many
    many applications that we don't even haven't got a clue right now.

    I haven't met anybody who claims that, given the time frame is 'overnight'.
    Yep, there won't be any noticeable effect what we do for climate change in
    global scale, in your life time for sure.
    I presumed he knows his shit enough to know that.
    NBN has been boasting about super fast and low cost internet.
    But, that's not gonna happen as far as lower cost part concerns, right?!
    I bet my arse it ain't gonna happen. Besides, the way Gonski reforms are
    being tweaked, it can hardly be called Gonski now.
    NBN will go ahead regardless of who's coming to power, coalition can only
    tweak it the way Turnball wants it or they can only slow it down.
    Not to mention it's slow enough as it is though.
    Carl Williams didn't do most of his killings by himself either.
    I'm sure you've got enough saving to hire a hit man.
    Problem is that, I don't think you got balls to do the things you would
    like to do, right?!!! :))
  9. Damian

    Damian Guest

    With the existing technologies, wireless won't get anywhere near a fibre
    But, where did he say "wireless can do anything fibre NBN can do:"?!!
    Sounds bit too futuristic to me.
  10. Gordon Levi

    Gordon Levi Guest

    The author presents a good case based on his position as a major
    Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over a larger share
    of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs. The current NBN Co
    Network Terminating Unit has four ports and can offer a choice of RSPs
    but Hackett wants to alter the system so that there is only a single
    RSP and even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU. While
    Hackett is probably right and the extra ports will be largely unused
    they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services. The
    provision of a free government (and other) services port seems an
    excellent idea. Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel the
    supply of telephone services via an RSP whereas the NBN Co design
    allows a telephone-only connection using the customers existing

    His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect also
    limits competition. I believe the additional points of interconnect
    were added at the instigation of the ACCC because they would allow
    more localised service providers and to avoid making existing telco's
    fibre useless. They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

    The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
    provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes let alone
    an estimate of the added costs to the consumer. I agree that the cost
    of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised. I don't see that
    transferring a small fraction of those costs to the consumer via the
    RSP is a benefit especially if it limits access to the NBN.
  11. Huh!? I don't think he's advocating any such thing. Yes, he advocates
    to lower the costs (of *all* the steps/parts), but not by handing a part
    of the cost to the RSPs. *hich share of which cost(s) do you think he is
    handing over to the RSPs?
    I think he gives excellent arguments why implementing an *additional*,
    *very* costly, network, is a stupid idea. All current networks, happily
    carry non-RSP services. There is no reason to do it in another way for
    the NBN. As he says (have you read his further comments?), any service
    which does not go the [TCP/]IP route is brain-dead from the start.
    Like any current network, the NBN can do "a telephone-only connection
    using the customers existing telephones". And yes, there will be a SP
    for that connection, but that that SP may or may not be called an "RSP",
    is just semantics.
    He *said* that he could not give such an estimate, because the needed
    (NBNCo) information is not availale.
    Again, he is *not* propopsing to "transfer[ring] a small fraction of
    those costs to the consumer RSP". The whole point of his proposal is to
    *lower* *all* cost parts.

    I think you should 'watch' (listen and read) the presentation again.

    And notice the vendor (i.e. Alcatel) lock-in issue! Absurd!
  12. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
    about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
    supposed to dramatically increase over time too.
    I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

    While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
    out to are certainly interested in providing that along
    with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.
    Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
    up in the consumer's place as he points out.
    Makes more sense to have that included in
    the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
    those who just want the free to air channels.
    Not necessarily with so many doing that
    stuff with the mobile phone system now.
    Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
    those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
    something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

    Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
    POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
    way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

    The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
    have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
    gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

    But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
    is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
    they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
    just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
    and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.
    But there are in fact **** all of those left anymore for various reasons.

    Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
    wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
    just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?
    And dramatically so too.
    And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
    of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.
    He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
    likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.
    I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.
    And it can only be a small fraction.
    It doesn't.
  13. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    Its only fools like Turdbull that didn’t realise that.
    Back in the days when the coalition were saying they would pull the
    plug on the NBN once they got elected, in the election after the Dud
    had been assassinated and even before that, just after the Dud had
    proclaimed that we would have a FTTP NBN when no one was actually
    stupid enough to tender for his stupid FTTN NBN. Even before the
    Dud had become PM the first time, in that election campaign too.
    Just terminally pig ignorant on shared bandwidth alone.
  14. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    Yep, back when he was the coalition leader.
    Its true anyway.
    It is absolutely guaranteed to cost a lot more.
    None of that is his. Its what the Dud proposed
    in the election that binned Howard, with the coalition
    and Turdbull proclaiming that it made absolutely no
    sense at all and that wireless was the way to go.
    Wrong, as always.
    In the election that binned Howard and made him PM.
    You can't have looked very hard.
    Have a look at what he proposed in the
    election campaign that binned Howard.
    That’s the problem with being a limp wristed
    vegy, what matters that’s between your ears
    drips out of your ears and you don’t have anything
    left to remember the basics with anymore.
    Corse they can. It’s a govt operation,
    they can pull the plug any time they like.
    That is a bare faced pig ignorant lie.

    It’s a govt operation and they can
    pull the plug any time they like.
    That’s an entirely separate question to what they can do legally.
    That would be completely stupid.

    They should either continue with it or pull the plug on it.
    Wrong, **** all of its been built and **** all are using it
    and they can just flog whats been built already anyway.
    Even sillier. **** all of the $50B has been spent already.
    You don’t have a fucking clue on that. It’s a govt operation,
    they can pull the plug on it any time they like.
    Makes not sense to be doing it now when almost all of those
    that want a decent broadband service already have one.
    Absolutely certainly.
    Nothing is going to do that with the absolute vast bulk
    of the cost, fiber down the streets and how that’s done.
    Its an off budget cost.
    Even sillier. The govt budget has got sweet
    **** all to do with anyone's living conditions.
    Varys with the place we are talking about.
    We already have. What's best in a particular
    area depends on the detail of that area.

    Clearly for new subdivisions, FTTP makes the most sense.

    For areas outside the major towns where there is already
    a decent broadband service, but not for the areas outside
    those towns, it makes no sense to be doing FTTP.

    In some areas what the NBN is doing with wireless makes sense.
    All of it in fact.
    Sure, that was just a comment on your comment about the PSTN.
    That last is just plain silly. There are plenty of
    places that have FTTP right now world wide.

    Nothing special has shown up with any of those.
    The point is that that is the most dramatic approach that
    could be taken and when that would have absolutely NO
    effect what so ever on world climate, anything else will
    have even less effect on world climate if it wasn’t for the
    fact that even less than nothing is still nothing.
    Wont have any effect in anyone's lifetime, or their kids lifetime
    or their grand kids lifetime either. None, zero, nada, not a razoo.
    Yes, its clearly just an attempt to do things better for RSPs
    with the usual fudging the issue claiming lower costs.
    Just like all spivs and con men do. The real cost is at
    least $50B that someone is going to have to pay for.

    Three guesses who that is going to be ?
    And even their own 'business plan' admits that.
    Yes, the coalition is too stupid to do that with the NBN.

    They arent with Gonski tho.
    Bullshit. If anything its even more stupid than Gonski proposed.
    It remains to be seen if that’s even possible.

    And what they will do when they find that it isnt.
    They can pull the plug on it completely if they want to.
    And that might well be a good excuse to pull the plug
    on it when they discover that FTTN just isnt feasible.
    You don’t need to pay loonys anything much.

    The trick is to run barefoot thru the dog shit between their ears.
    You have absolutely no idea how many I have done that to already.

    Have a look at what happened to a sysop in fidonet sometime.

    Hint: He's dead.
  15. keithr

    keithr Guest

  16. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    Yes he is, particularly with the RSP providing the NTU
    with nothing in the home provided by the NBN at all.
    The hardware in the home/premises.
    Yes he is with the hardware in the house/premises.
    No, his proposal does not lower the cost of running the fiber
    down the streets for example.
    You too.
  17. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    If I told you that I'd have to kill you too, stupid.
    Just produces the signup page.

    Yeah, been emailing him quite a bit when he isn't in the loony bin.

    He rang me from the loony bin quite literally, wanted to know
    which of the region free DVD players his wife should get for him.

    He's since divorced her and has just bought a new unit.
  18. Don McKenzie

    Don McKenzie Guest

  19. keithr

    keithr Guest

    Smells like bullshit.
  20. Rod Speed

    Rod Speed Guest

    You with egg all over your face, as always.
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