Brush vs. Brushless Generators ?

[DFS]

Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the two
gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator in
the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as principle
advantages. Are they equally as robust?

Dave

 

[Ecnerwal]

Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the two
gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator in
the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as principle
advantages. Are they equally as robust?

The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.

 

[Awsome]

I like brushless generator head, durable and long lasting as compare to
brush type generator. In fact I recently bought one on ebay that is
brushless 16KW and cost me only $260. Search on ebay under"generator head"
and you will see many listed there.

 

[Bruce in Alaska]

The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.

In the case of Brushed vs Brushless, the main difference is price of
materials. Brushed requires much less copper as you only have two
sets of windings, Exciter, and Sator, where in brushless you have 4
windings. Most brushed genends are self regulating in design.
In brushed you have slips rings and brush, brush holders,
springs, Ect. In brushless, you have rotating diodes, more windings,
and an AVR. (Auto Voltage Regulator) Brushless would seem to need
less maintainance, and be more robust, but is more complicated and
when it breaks, requires more smarts to find and fix the problem.

"But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

Well not really true..... There are plenty of Prine Power Gensets
that have brushes. I know of a whole series of CAT 398's 800Kw
gensets that have brushes and sliprings on the rotating exciter.
Brushed and Brushless is more a function of design age than Prime
or not Prime Power.

In todays technology for under 20Kw Prime Power you really should look
at 1800 Rpm Brushless Genends powered by whatever fuel suits you fancy.
Liquid Cooled is ALWAYS better than Air Cooled for operater available,
Prime Powered system. Where Air Cooled is nice is for Remote Site Prime
Powere Systems, that have LONG Service intervals. Alascom uses some
really nice Air Cooled, 3 Cyl, 1200 Rpm, 12Kw Lister diesel gensets
with 45 USG lubeOil Sumps, that run 24/7 and get service once every six
months. These are at Helocopter Accessable only sites on Mountain Tops,
and some of these units have over 175K operating hours on them. Alascom
does Inframe rebuilds on them every 40K operating hours, so that means
some of these engines have been rebuilt 3 times already and still going
strong. Now that is what I call Prime Power, with longevity......

I have a Fairbanks/Morse 45B that turns at 1200 Rpm and drives a Dayton
3600 Rpm 3Kw Genend via a 3:1 Belt&Shieve setup. NOt really a Prime
Power Unit but the friend that is using it, runs it 12/7 all summer long
at his cabin to keep the freezers cold and the Inverter Batteries
charged. Nothing like slow Rpms to increase longevity.....

Bruce in alaska just a note.......

 

[SQLit]

In the case of Brushed vs Brushless, the main difference is price of
materials. Brushed requires much less copper as you only have two
sets of windings, Exciter, and Sator, where in brushless you have 4
windings. Most brushed genends are self regulating in design.
In brushed you have slips rings and brush, brush holders,
springs, Ect. In brushless, you have rotating diodes, more windings,
and an AVR. (Auto Voltage Regulator) Brushless would seem to need
less maintainance, and be more robust, but is more complicated and
when it breaks, requires more smarts to find and fix the problem.



Well not really true..... There are plenty of Prine Power Gensets
that have brushes. I know of a whole series of CAT 398's 800Kw
gensets that have brushes and sliprings on the rotating exciter.
Brushed and Brushless is more a function of design age than Prime
or not Prime Power.

In todays technology for under 20Kw Prime Power you really should look
at 1800 Rpm Brushless Genends powered by whatever fuel suits you fancy.
Liquid Cooled is ALWAYS better than Air Cooled for operater available,
Prime Powered system. Where Air Cooled is nice is for Remote Site Prime
Powere Systems, that have LONG Service intervals. Alascom uses some
really nice Air Cooled, 3 Cyl, 1200 Rpm, 12Kw Lister diesel gensets
with 45 USG lubeOil Sumps, that run 24/7 and get service once every six
months. These are at Helocopter Accessable only sites on Mountain Tops,
and some of these units have over 175K operating hours on them. Alascom
does Inframe rebuilds on them every 40K operating hours, so that means
some of these engines have been rebuilt 3 times already and still going
strong. Now that is what I call Prime Power, with longevity......

I have a Fairbanks/Morse 45B that turns at 1200 Rpm and drives a Dayton
3600 Rpm 3Kw Genend via a 3:1 Belt&Shieve setup. NOt really a Prime
Power Unit but the friend that is using it, runs it 12/7 all summer long
at his cabin to keep the freezers cold and the Inverter Batteries
charged. Nothing like slow Rpms to increase longevity.....

Bruce in alaska just a note.......
--

Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.

 

[sno]

Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.

New 650 to 1000 rpm listers, 6 to 12 hp....if you are serious about
continuous power and longevity....start at 2000 dollars US.

http://utterpower.com/index.html

http://oldstylelisters.com/

have fun....sno

--
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it

This tag line is generated by:

SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)

 

[Bruce in Alaska]

Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.

Actually, you can buy a Witte, NEW, as they are still in production. A
bit on the expensive side but still avaiable. I have some neighbors
(within 60 miles) that have Witte's turning genends for power. Most
however are using newer designed engines, like Onan, and some of the
Asian engines. (Yanmar, Isuszu, ect.)
Slow speed Listers, and the Indian Lister Knockoffs are also very nice
for longevity, but you have to put up with "HEAVY IRON" type engines,
and the knockoffs tend to have funny nonstandard bearings and the like.
The China Diesels are basically Benz knockoffs, but have very funny
bearing specs. Seems no two production runs use the same bearing sets.
My brother (the engineer) is having a connecting rod bearing for a
China Diesel custom built because the old one is an off-size and the
factory no longer exists.

Bruce in alaska

 

[Me]

New 650 to 1000 rpm listers, 6 to 12 hp....if you are serious about
continuous power and longevity....start at 2000 dollars US.

http://utterpower.com/index.html

http://oldstylelisters.com/

have fun....sno

--
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it

This tag line is generated by:

SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)

These are NOT Listers, but Indian Lister clones.......

Just a note......


Me

 

[Steve Spence]

Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.

Sounds similar to a lister.