Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Bravo to the SpaceShipOne team!

J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
Does the choice of currency indicate any prejudice on the part of the
predictors as to who is going to be footing this bill?
It was specially put there for your benefit. (;-) Yes, with all these
dire predictions of a US collapse whoever wins the election, only the
Chinese will be able to afford it.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>

It was specially put there for your benefit. (;-) Yes, with all these
dire predictions of a US collapse whoever wins the election, only the
Chinese will be able to afford it.
--

Then again, now that civilian space travel is officially real, maybe this
whole discussion has suddenly moved to the realm of angels on a pinhead.

I guess we can let the repugs take down the whole continent, as long as
there's a means of escape.

Cheers!
Rich
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
Private Rocket Recovers, Enters Space
SpaceShipOne Climbs to Unofficial Altitude 62 Miles on Quest for $10 Million
Prize

SpaceShipOne, with astronaut Michael Melvill at the controls, climbed to an
unofficial altitude of more than 330,000 feet, about 2,000 feet above its
target altitude of 62 miles.

Way to go!
Bravo!

All they need to do now is find a way of carrying another 16,000 mph
of delta vee up there and they are in business. A Saturn V ought to
just about do it.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
All they need to do now is find a way of carrying another 16,000 mph
of delta vee up there and they are in business. A Saturn V ought to
just about do it.
Don't forget, they've got something on the order of 500 lb. cargo capacity.
It wouldn't take much of a "third stage" to insert into LEO, I'd think.

And when you say, "another 16,000 mph delta vee", you haven't mentioned
just how much delta vee it took to get to 100 KM in the first place.

How much would that be then, just so us slugs can compare numbers?

Thanks,
Rich
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don't forget, they've got something on the order of 500 lb. cargo capacity.
It wouldn't take much of a "third stage" to insert into LEO, I'd think.

And when you say, "another 16,000 mph delta vee", you haven't mentioned
just how much delta vee it took to get to 100 KM in the first place.

How much would that be then, just so us slugs can compare numbers?

Thanks,
Rich

That first bit doesn't matter. The problem is that they arrive at
orbital altitude with no better than Mach 3 (and probably a lot less,
because they are ballistic at this point) of velocity. To achieve
orbit they need another 16,000mph. That is the required delta vee at
that point, and the fuel to achieve it has to be carried up there.
That is why rockets are so big. Most of the fuel they carry is used in
carrying the rest of the fuel aloft.

It isn't rocket science ;-)

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Pearce wrote...
That first bit doesn't matter. The problem is that they arrive at
orbital altitude with no better than Mach 3 (and probably a lot less,
because they are ballistic at this point) of velocity. To achieve
orbit they need another 16,000mph. That is the required delta vee at
that point, and the fuel to achieve it has to be carried up there.
That is why rockets are so big. Most of the fuel they carry is used in
carrying the rest of the fuel aloft.

It isn't rocket science ;-)

Actually it is. I'm sure it's the first bit of theory an amateur
rocketeer learns when getting serious. And the relevant formulas
were the very first thing we were taught in one of my classes in
the JPL spacecraft engineering curriculum I took at Cal Tech.
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Pearce wrote...

Actually it is. I'm sure it's the first bit of theory an amateur
rocketeer learns when getting serious. And the relevant formulas
were the very first thing we were taught in one of my classes in
the JPL spacecraft engineering curriculum I took at Cal Tech.

Exactly, (did you miss the smiley?), which is why I'm wondering what
all the fuss is about - this is a project that is going nowhere except
a very expensive fairground ride.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
J

James Beck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Exactly, (did you miss the smiley?), which is why I'm wondering what
all the fuss is about - this is a project that is going nowhere except
a very expensive fairground ride.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
10 years from now when Virgin puts NASA out of business, what will you
say then? Remember, baby steps........
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
10 years from now when Virgin puts NASA out of business, what will you
say then? Remember, baby steps........

No, this is a technological dead end. It is not a development
programme with orbital flight at the end. Google the rocket equation
and play with the sums to see why.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Don Pearce <[email protected]>
Exactly, (did you miss the smiley?), which is why I'm wondering what all
the fuss is about - this is a project that is going nowhere except a
very expensive fairground ride.

You are referring to that old nonsense at Kitty Hawk?
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yup - always said aeroplanes were a waste of time. Just nobody's
caught on yet.
Unfortunately, the metaphor breaks down for me, when I consider that
the US Army was at Kitty Hawk, and were probably the major investor.

We're trying to get away from that business, you know.

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
10 years from now when Virgin puts NASA out of business, what will you
say then? Remember, baby steps........

Neil Armstrong got it back-asswards. Going to the moon is a major leap
for a man, yes, (takes a lot of grunt work to loft all that stuff) but
for Mankind (or, P-C, Humankind, or Pink monkeys, whatever), it's just
the first baby steps to the stars...

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, this is a technological dead end. It is not a development
programme with orbital flight at the end. Google the rocket equation
and play with the sums to see why.

Hey! You're doing an Aylward! Flatly declare something impossible,
and then tell your skeptical audience to do _your_ homework? Screw that.

_You_ show us the numbers.

Thanks,
Rich
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hey! You're doing an Aylward! Flatly declare something impossible,
and then tell your skeptical audience to do _your_ homework? Screw that.

_You_ show us the numbers.

Thanks,
Rich

I've done the numbers - listen up. They arrive at orbital height with
no velocity. To achieve orbit they need 17,500mph. In space parlance
that is called delta vee, and it doesn't come for nothing. Sure I
could put together a spreadsheet with some guestimates in it for the
amount of fuel you would need to do that, but back-of-a-cigarette pack
calculations say that it is a lot - like the amount you use to put a
normal rocket into space. That stuff doesn't happen by accident, you
know.

Now I have presented you with a simple, undisputed fact - orbital
height, and no velocity. You are making the extraordinary suggestion
that somehow (and I can only assume magic) they can find 17,500mph
from nowhere. So it is over to you - the extraordinary proposition is
yours - justify it with some numbers.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Don Pearce <[email protected]>
Now I have presented you with a simple, undisputed fact - orbital
height, and no velocity. You are making the extraordinary suggestion
that somehow (and I can only assume magic) they can find 17,500mph from
nowhere.

You can still perhaps find on the Web somewhere the explanation that all
you need is a simple BRAKE. The ship stops and the Earth rotates
underneath it. Of course, you can only do this when you are beyond the
Earth's gravity. (;-)

Naturally, this is all being kept secret by the government.
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Don Pearce <[email protected]>


You can still perhaps find on the Web somewhere the explanation that all
you need is a simple BRAKE. The ship stops and the Earth rotates
underneath it. Of course, you can only do this when you are beyond the
Earth's gravity. (;-)

Naturally, this is all being kept secret by the government.

Bastards!

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
C

Clifford Heath

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
Hey! You're doing an Aylward! Flatly declare something impossible,
and then tell your skeptical audience to do _your_ homework? Screw that.

Without actually "doing the rocket equation", consider this:
Suppose that the rocket+500lb payload totals 500Kg. 17,000mph is
about 7800m/s, so the orbital kinetic energy (mv^2) is around 30GJ.
Using a fuel yielding say 20MJ/kg, you need all the energy from 1.5
tonnes of fuel at apogee, with none being wasted in accelerating
said fuel. So realistically, you probably need 5 tonnes of fuel.
That makes your vehicle 10 times heavier at apogee, so the launch
system must get *that* up to 100km. It starts to add up... or in
this case, multiply up :-(.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
_You_ show us the numbers.

I think he's suggesting that the understanding will only come from doing the
work. Not that it cannot be shown. But it would take a book (okay, a small
one) to detail the various alternate thoughts to investigate so that in a
comprehensive view you see the "difficulties."

A single expression would show you nothing. The methods applied to the data are
as important as the data, itself. And that requires understanding which is
acquired by study and working through the ideas and their equations.

Don had quipped:
All they need to do now is find a way of carrying another 16,000 mph
of delta vee up there and they are in business. A Saturn V ought to
just about do it.

and you took issue with this (out of ignorance?):
Don't forget, they've got something on the order of 500 lb. cargo capacity.
It wouldn't take much of a "third stage" to insert into LEO, I'd think.

So what were you thinking here? From knowledge? Or not?

You go on to add:
And when you say, "another 16,000 mph delta vee", you haven't mentioned
just how much delta vee it took to get to 100 KM in the first place.

Rutan designed this puppy for one thing and one thing only -- winning the prize.
In the process, I believe, they've made significant progress with hybrid engines
-- but that's another thing. But they also haven't been designing for much of
anything else, either. It's just to go get the prize.

What Don was alluding to (hell, not alluding to but saying outright) is that you
use the "rocket equation" to see what the meaning of delta vee is:

dV = Exhaust velocity * ln ( initial mass / final mass )

Since it's kind of hard to wave a stick in the exhaust to measure its velocity,
ISP is usually used and is measured as (thrust/flow rate.) With that, you get:

dV = ISP * g * ln ( initial mass / final mass )

I've read various estimates on the ISP for Rutan's hybrid, but the number is
probably somewhere around 325 seconds. (He uses a solid butadiene with nitrous
oxide.)

Circular orbital velocity at 112.2km is:

Vc = SQRT( G * M / (R + h) ) = SQRT( 398603.2 / (6371 + 112.2) )

or about 7.84 km/s.

Skipping all that for a moment....

I seem to have read that this ship was traveling at Mach 3 (which varies a lot
based on the air so I really don't know what this means) when it started
coasting. I'm going to assume that mach 3 means what google says, namely
1020.87 m/s. Final height was 112.2 km and coasting time would be V(final)/g or
about 1020.87/9.82 or say 114 seconds. Rate of loss of velocity to zero is
constant (g), so we can use the midpoint as the average velocity or (1/2) of
1020.87 m/s, so the distance traveled is .5*1020.87*114 or about 58 km. (I've
neglected air resistance here.) Release height, I've read, was something on the
order of 15km, so the fuel was burning for the time from (112 - 58 - 15) or 39
km. I also read that the burn time was something like 70 seconds, so this means
a net acceleration of a=2*d/t^2 or about 15.92 m/s^2 (about 1.62 gee.)

Reasonableness check: 1.62 gee sounds reasonable? yes.

Now, I've also read that there was a planned up-angle of 84 degrees. No idea if
they followed through with that. But it would adjust some of these figures.
I'll leave it as an exercise.

Meanwhile, we've already figured that there was a vertical delta vee of about
1.02 km/s (going from zero to Mach 3 before coasting.) This compares with
needing yet another 7.84 km/s to go from about 0 to orbital velocity,
tangentially. Since energy increases by V^2, this suggests as much as 61 times
as much energy is needed. (This isn't strictly correct, as the rocket gets
lighter as it uses fuel, but it gets the idea across.)

Another way to look at this, though, for a single stage is to use the rocket
equation:

dV = ISP * g * ln ( initial mass / final mass )

We already know some of the factors or can estimate them. The dV is what's
required to "go up" (against gravity) plus what's required to "to tangential"
(orbital velocity) and some more for drag losses (and Earth's rotational
velocity one way or another.) Let's say it remains airplane launched from 15km
to keep it simpler. You'll need the 1.02 km/s plus the 7.84 km/s as your d-vee.
This means:

e^((dV/ISP)/g) = (initial mass / final mass) = about 16.06 : 1

This is ... tough to reach. Usually called... impractical.

Hmm. I wonder what his actual ratio was on this flight... Well, I've read
somewhere that it was about 1.6 : 1. About 10-fold less. Let's see what the
above estimates give us:

e^(1020.87/325/9.82) = about 1.38 : 1

Not too far from this suggestion I'd read somewhere. The differences here may
be from changes in various estimates, including the up-angle which may not have
been 90 degrees, but closer to 84 degrees.

If my numbers are (the 1.38:1 and the 16.06:1), then the fuel they used compared
to the fuel they'd need to use (assuming no change in payload and dead weight):

(16.06-1)/(1.38-1) = 39.6 times

This isn't so different from the 61X gross estimate arrived at from the earlier
V^2 estimate. So, about 40X or so.

In other words, they did about 2.5% of what they'd need to do, keeping the same
payload they currently have and launching from 15km up.

Anyway, all this gives a rough idea. This ship was carried aloft to over 15 km
before being released. In doing so, much of the drag effect was removed. It
actually ran powered for some 114 seconds total (less than two minutes) and
glided the rest of the way up. At this point, it canted back down but with
essentially zero (or close to it) horizontal velocity. All of that would need
to be made up if it were to go orbital, as well. And this would amount to many
times as much fuel -- perhaps 40 times, or so. In the rough ballpark, anyway.

Which gets right back to Don's broader point, I think.
How much would that be then, just so us slugs can compare numbers?

Interesting play on words, because a 'slug' is actually a unit that rocketeers
used frequently enough (in the English system, anyway.)

Jon
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
This isn't so different from the 61X gross estimate arrived at from the
earlier
V^2 estimate. So, about 40X or so.

In other words, they did about 2.5% of what they'd need to do, keeping the
same payload they currently have and launching from 15km up.

Anyway, all this gives a rough idea. This ship was carried aloft to over
15 km
before being released. In doing so, much of the drag effect was removed.
It actually ran powered for some 114 seconds total (less than two minutes)
and
glided the rest of the way up. At this point, it canted back down but
with
essentially zero (or close to it) horizontal velocity. All of that would
need
to be made up if it were to go orbital, as well. And this would amount to
many
times as much fuel -- perhaps 40 times, or so. In the rough ballpark,
anyway.

Which gets right back to Don's broader point, I think.


Interesting play on words, because a 'slug' is actually a unit that
rocketeers used frequently enough (in the English system, anyway.)

Well, at least you showed the numbers, rather than saying I had to
go look it up myself. That was my only complaint about the previous post.
My only experience with SSTO was talking to a guy who did one of the
first ones back in the '60s. He was on the crew that found out that the
Earth is actually kind of oblate. And he claimed that on one shot, (out of
quite a few testruns) they put a whole rocket in orbit, in one stage. And
there was that DC-X project, although I know that the Rutan project is
nowhere in that league - my point was, thanks for showing the numbers that
show why the Rutan ship isn't feasible for orbit - now somebody has to get
to work on the next "stage," so to speak.

And yes, the slugs thank you. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
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