BPL Trial

[Terry Collins]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1826952087&fp=2&fpid=1

"A new 200Mbps technology called Broadband over Powerlines (BPL)
has been tested successfully by Energy Australia in Newcastle.
Initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive following
the three-month trial, which finished last month."

Does anyone have any further information?
Interference problems, etc?

 

[Martin]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1826952087&fp=2&fpid=1

"A new 200Mbps technology called Broadband over Powerlines (BPL)
has been tested successfully by Energy Australia in Newcastle.
Initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive following
the three-month trial, which finished last month."

Does anyone have any further information?
Interference problems, etc?

Apart from the severe interference it causes radiocommunications?

www.acrem.org.au/bpl
www.wia.org.au/BPL

This has been an ongoing issue worldwide for a while now, Japan has banned
BPL due to the severe interference that can't be solved, as has other
countries. Governments more concerned with business rather than public
opinion have adopted BPL, such as the USA, but they have implemented
restrictions to avoid interference to Government radio sites.

Very much information on the internet on BPL and its effects, upside,
downside, etc. The above websites will take you to other sites that have
heaps of information on BPL and why radio operators worldwide are fighting
it.

Hope that helps. Also see the Amateur Radio newsgroups:
aus.radio.amateur.misc

 

[Jim]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1826952087&fp=2&fpid=1 ..
Initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive

Having seen the spin doctors of this mob in action, I very much doubt it.

Cheers
Jim

 

[Aussie Fred]

Apart from the severe interference it causes radiocommunications?

www.acrem.org.au/bpl
www.wia.org.au/BPL

This has been an ongoing issue worldwide for a while now, Japan has banned
BPL due to the severe interference that can't be solved, as has other
countries. Governments more concerned with business rather than public
opinion have adopted BPL, such as the USA, but they have implemented
restrictions to avoid interference to Government radio sites.

Then Australia would ban it I suspect. Being a democracy surely we are more
interested in what the public want rather than business.

 

[Allan]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1826952087&fp=2&fpid=1

"A new 200Mbps technology called Broadband over Powerlines (BPL)
has been tested successfully by Energy Australia in Newcastle.
Initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive following
the three-month trial, which finished last month."

Does anyone have any further information?
Interference problems, etc?

Sounds like a great idea!

But I know Telstra would fight it 100%..
Because at the moment, everyone who has fixed Broadband access point,
Has to HAVE a Telstra Phone line to the house, and pay rent on that,
This system would mean a lot of users, like me, would dump our home phones,
and use our mobiles and the power point for BPL.!!
Allan

 

[Martin]

Sounds like a great idea!

But I know Telstra would fight it 100%..
Because at the moment, everyone who has fixed Broadband access point,
Has to HAVE a Telstra Phone line to the house, and pay rent on that,
This system would mean a lot of users, like me, would dump our home
phones,
and use our mobiles and the power point for BPL.!!
Allan

Trust you don't listen to AM broadcast radio or use anything else that
operates in the frequency range 2MHz to 80MHz...

If you do, the BPL would probably stop it.....

 

[Allan]

Trust you don't listen to AM broadcast radio or use anything else that
operates in the frequency range 2MHz to 80MHz...

If you do, the BPL would probably stop it.....

I think like a lot of people these days,
I use FM, And I sold my old 27 MHz CB Years ago.
I see there is a lot of Info from Ham radio sites, saying a lot of bad
things about the BPL and RFI.
I wonder if it is really as bad as they say, like why the Army don't get up
and do something about it, as they use a lot of HF gear.
The Fire Dept are using 78 and 80 MHz in Queanbeyan ,
http://www.acrem.org.au/bpl/#nsw1 where they did a test,
Why have they not hounded the govt about any RFI, or did it not effect their
Service?

I still reckon the idea is great, maybe if they used a higher freq, it may
stop or reduce the RFI.
Allan

 

[Ken Taylor]

I think like a lot of people these days,
I use FM, And I sold my old 27 MHz CB Years ago.
I see there is a lot of Info from Ham radio sites, saying a lot of bad
things about the BPL and RFI.
I wonder if it is really as bad as they say, like why the Army don't get up
and do something about it, as they use a lot of HF gear.
The Fire Dept are using 78 and 80 MHz in Queanbeyan ,
http://www.acrem.org.au/bpl/#nsw1 where they did a test,
Why have they not hounded the govt about any RFI, or did it not effect their
Service?

I still reckon the idea is great, maybe if they used a higher freq, it may
stop or reduce the RFI.
Allan

It's inherent in the technology, they can't just 'change frequency'.

Ken

 

[Martin]

I think like a lot of people these days,
I use FM, And I sold my old 27 MHz CB Years ago.

And unfortunately this is the big problem in Australia - too many people
have the opinion "if it doesn't affect me right now, I don't care"

I see there is a lot of Info from Ham radio sites, saying a lot of bad
things about the BPL and RFI.
I wonder if it is really as bad as they say, like why the Army don't get
up
and do something about it, as they use a lot of HF gear.
The Fire Dept are using 78 and 80 MHz in Queanbeyan ,
http://www.acrem.org.au/bpl/#nsw1 where they did a test,
Why have they not hounded the govt about any RFI, or did it not effect
their
Service?

Fistly, the interference observed so far by amateur radio operators has been
severe enough to totally obliterate communications on the frequencies
involved.

Secondly, if anything like the USA happens here, institutes like Army, etc,
will not have BPL systems allowed anywhere near their installations. One
question we have - if BPL was so 'harmless' then why did the FCC find it
necessary to place a buffer zone around all government sites (like military,
coast guard, homeland security, etc) where BPL could not be set up?

And thirdly, what many people do not know is that small trials may not
reveal the total interference potential for that system. The frequencies
used by a BPL system depends on how busy it is and what other frequencies
have been 'notched' out, so a trial with say 200 users may cause
significantly less RFI than a commercial roll out with 10,000 users, but by
that time it's too late! Remember the interference monitored in Queanbeyan
indicated that the system was in an idle state - if that much severe
interference is created when the system is idle, what will happen when
1000's of users are online?

I still reckon the idea is great, maybe if they used a higher freq, it may
stop or reduce the RFI.

The concept is wonderful - imagine just plug your modem into the powerpoint
(you will still need an interface or modem of some sort), but should we be
thinking of a technology that is proven to wipe out another existing
technology? Why not just extend the fibre optic cable that they need to run
to operate the BPL system? Or better still, use the wireless technology
emerging? In many countries BPL is seen as old technology that has very
limited use and the upcoming alternatives are far better choices.

In the community there are many people that enjoy radio as a hobby, and not
just amateur or CB radio. There is also shortwave listening or AM broadcast
DXing, neither of which receive any protection from interference under even
current legislation. These hobbies are amongst those that have suffered
interference and have complained..

 

[Dave Goldfinch]

Sounds like a great idea!

But I know Telstra would fight it 100%..
Because at the moment, everyone who has fixed Broadband access point,
Has to HAVE a Telstra Phone line to the house, and pay rent on that,
This system would mean a lot of users, like me, would dump our home phones,
and use our mobiles and the power point for BPL.!!
Allan

Wrong ! - I have a fixed Broadband access point that is served by
Foxtel cable, I don't pay any rent for the cable as I am not, nor will
I ever be, a Foxtel subscriber

Thanks to the promotion earlier this year I even got free installation
including the cable & modem.

Dave.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1826952087&fp=2&fpid=1

"A new 200Mbps technology called Broadband over Powerlines (BPL)
has been tested successfully by Energy Australia in Newcastle.
Initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive following
the three-month trial, which finished last month."

Does anyone have any further information?
Interference problems, etc?

AFAICS, the principal question facing the regulators is, do we make
millions of potential Internet users happy at the expense of a handful
of AM radio hams? Either way I doubt that the government (or ACA) will
give the go ahead before Telstra is sold off.


- Franc Zabkar

 

[Martin]

AFAICS, the principal question facing the regulators is, do we make
millions of potential Internet users happy at the expense of a handful
of AM radio hams? Either way I doubt that the government (or ACA) will
give the go ahead before Telstra is sold off.

Radio hams, 4WD networks, RFDS, School of the Air, Maritime Radio, AM
Broadcast band radio, shortwave listeners, and the list goes on. Much more
than 'a handful'. This is the problem - the full extent of services and
frequencies affected will not be known until the system is fully setup and
operating, but by that time it is too late, so do we allow a system that
already causes severe interference problems while still under test
conditions? Especially when there is other, more appropriate methods to
deliver the internet to the 'millions of potential Internet users'.

Unfortunaetly the amateur operators are the main ones that are going out and
actually investigating what effects BPL is having on the radio spectrum, but
we must bear in mind that on and around the frequencies they are using to
check interference are many, many, many more users, many of which are
probably totally unaware of what is being debated.

Radio users are not against improved internet access technology, and if BPL
worked without wiping out all radio signals except the BPL its-self it would
be happily supported. How many people would complain if we scrapped NRL and
AFL just because the cricket are using 'stump cam'?

 

[Jim]

AFAICS, the principal question facing the regulators is, do we make
millions of potential Internet users happy at the expense of a handful
of AM radio hams? Either way I doubt that the government (or ACA) will
give the go ahead before Telstra is sold off.


- Franc Zabkar

Frank, I know you used the term AM radio hams rather loosly, but licensed
amateur radio operators are somewhat more sophisticated these days. "A
handful of AM hams " suggests that you may be also be unaware that Australia
still relies heavily on HF communications. For example the military has just
finished a $ 250mil upgrade of their facilities.
You may also be surprised to find out that there are more than a handful of
amateur operators.
The unfortunate thing is that we are not in a position to spend millions on
spin doctors and other less savoury activities in order to make money at the
expense of our fellow Australians.

Jim

 

[Mike Harding]

I see there is a lot of Info from Ham radio sites, saying a lot of bad
things about the BPL and RFI.
I wonder if it is really as bad as they say, like why the Army don't get up
and do something about it, as they use a lot of HF gear.

Not around the suburbs they don't.

Mike Harding

 

[Allan]

Trust you don't listen to AM broadcast radio or use anything else that

And unfortunately this is the big problem in Australia - too many people
have the opinion "if it doesn't affect me right now, I don't care"

How true that is !!!!

Fistly, the interference observed so far by amateur radio operators has been
severe enough to totally obliterate communications on the frequencies
involved.

Secondly, if anything like the USA happens here, institutes like Army, etc,
will not have BPL systems allowed anywhere near their installations. One
question we have - if BPL was so 'harmless' then why did the FCC find it
necessary to place a buffer zone around all government sites (like military,
coast guard, homeland security, etc) where BPL could not be set up?

I wonder if it is more of a security issue, than that of RFI? The fact you
can just plug in a modem into a wall socket
and get online, could give a very bad security risk to a number of Govt
depts.

And thirdly, what many people do not know is that small trials may not
reveal the total interference potential for that system. The frequencies
used by a BPL system depends on how busy it is and what other frequencies
have been 'notched' out, so a trial with say 200 users may cause
significantly less RFI than a commercial roll out with 10,000 users, but by
that time it's too late! Remember the interference monitored in Queanbeyan
indicated that the system was in an idle state - if that much severe
interference is created when the system is idle, what will happen when
1000's of users are online?

Buzzzz....... X 1000 ..
:>

The concept is wonderful - imagine just plug your modem into the powerpoint
(you will still need an interface or modem of some sort), but should we be
thinking of a technology that is proven to wipe out another existing
technology? Why not just extend the fibre optic cable that they need to run
to operate the BPL system? Or better still, use the wireless technology
emerging? In many countries BPL is seen as old technology that has very
limited use and the upcoming alternatives are far better choices.

In the community there are many people that enjoy radio as a hobby, and not
just amateur or CB radio. There is also shortwave listening or AM broadcast
DXing, neither of which receive any protection from interference under even
current legislation. These hobbies are amongst those that have suffered
interference and have complained..

Wow, I just found a Article from Japan, that says it gets up into the UHF
band,
http://www.savehf.org/lib/isplc2003/isplc2003a7-1.pdf

297 to 357 MHz band..

 

[Martin]

[SNIP]

Wow, I just found a Article from Japan, that says it gets up into the UHF
band,
http://www.savehf.org/lib/isplc2003/isplc2003a7-1.pdf

297 to 357 MHz band..

.

Yep, that information was used for one of the ACREM-NSW submissions - didn't
do any good. ACA opinion is simply "Australian power distribution networks
are different than those used overseas", which basically is true, except
that they both use unshielded wire and that is where the problem is...

Ahh, don't you love the Australian Government 'head in the sand' policy?

 

[Fred Ferd]

Wow, I just found a Article from Japan, that says it gets up into the UHF
band,
http://www.savehf.org/lib/isplc2003/isplc2003a7-1.pdf

297 to 357 MHz band..

You would think that the dominate frequency of interference would be near
the carrier.. 200mbs, maybe 400mhz ?


Chris Deere called himself an Engineer. He is a Bachelor of Computer
Science.

 

[Martin]

You would think that the dominate frequency of interference would be near
the carrier.. 200mbs, maybe 400mhz ?

There are multiple carriers, spaced around every 1.1kHz, from about 2MHz to
30 or 80MHz, depending on the system used and how busy it is.

Martin, VK2UMJ

 

[Tsunami]

Sounds like a great idea!

But I know Telstra would fight it 100%..
Because at the moment, everyone who has fixed Broadband access point,
Has to HAVE a Telstra Phone line to the house, and pay rent on that,
This system would mean a lot of users, like me, would dump our home phones,
and use our mobiles and the power point for BPL.!!
Allan

Actually, incorrect. There IS another way, called wireless internet
granted although that wireless is only working in built up areas at the
moment.

 

[Mr. T]

Actually, incorrect. There IS another way, called wireless internet
granted although that wireless is only working in built up areas at the
moment.

And a third way which involves having Optus broadband and phone line,
therefore no Telstra payment.
Granted not in all areas, just like ALL broadband options.

Just how far they will be able to transmit at 200Mbs over standard power
lines is another matter though. How it is affected by sub stations and pole
transformers would be interesting to know. These things are optimised for
50Hz after all.

Just imagine, some homes will soon have Telstra 2 pair, Telstra cable, and
Optus cable running past their house, and ALL of them unused. Isn't
competition such a wasteful process

MrT.