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blackout in Italy

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by John Larkin, Sep 28, 2003.

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  1. John Larkin

    John Larkin Guest

  2. Ken Taylor

    Ken Taylor Guest

    Seems to be happening a lot lately. If I was a worrier, I'd be buying a
    generator and a gun.

  3. Mike

    Mike Guest

    Damn straight. Ain't no generator will run without a gun bein' pointed at
    it's gas tank. Stupid things have a mind of their own.

    -- Miek --
  4. Bill Sloman

    Bill Sloman Guest

    Berlusconi is one of Bush's more enthusiastic supporters, besides
    being a right-wing crook in his own right, widely suspected of
    large-scale corruption. At the moment he is immune from prosecution,
    having used his parlimentary majority to vote in an immunity bill, but
    half a million Italians have petitioned to have this immunity bill
    subjected to a referendum.,,1-810114,00.html

    One might suspect that the problem with the Italian high voltage
    network reflects the same sort of skimping on maintenance and
    emergency over-capacity that other "privatised" electrical utilities
    have suffered from. The IEEE Spectrum recently described the U.S. high
    voltage network as a disaster waiting to happen, and cited a couple of
    articles pre-dating the recent Northeast blackout.

    This isn't so much a fundamental moral failing, as the result of
    setting up of a rather-too-free market which the morally defective
    seem to be able to manipulate to their short term advantage.

    Enron does come to mind.
  5. Ken Taylor

    Ken Taylor Guest

    Gas tank? Sheesh, point a big enough gun and it'll run without it (if it
    knows what's good fer it!)

  6. So, how do you politicize the blackout in socialist Sweden then?
  7. Socialists can turn any subject into a political discussion
    Maybe it is just a plain dumb design to cover the planet with AC
    distribution systems containing huge rotating masses that must be perfectly
    synchronised at all times over distances of thousands of kilometers -
    perhaps it is better to break the synchronisation with DC-Links once a grid
    becomes large enough.
  8. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    There are some 400KV (DC) links in the western part of the USA.

    ...Jim Thompson
  9. Gary Tait

    Gary Tait Guest

    Whereas On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:16:25 -0700, Jim Thompson
    And some DC links connecting the Quebec grid to Ontario.
  10. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    The DC links were done for efficiency (MHD converters), but it's
    certainly an interesting idea to use DC between grids.

    ...Jim Thompson
  11. Bill Sloman

    Bill Sloman Guest

    The blackout doesn't seem to have been big enough to have been
    mentioned in the local (Dutch) newspapers - which might suggest that
    the Swedish high voltage distribution network wasn't being run quite
    so close to its maximum capacity, which is what upgraded the U.S. and
    Italian blackouts from local inconveniences.

    But until I do learn some more details, I don't really have an
  12. Ken Taylor

    Ken Taylor Guest

    Bill, you're no fun at all - go in half-assed with all guns blazing! :)

  13. Marc H.Popek

    Marc H.Popek Guest

    Easy John,

    During the go-go Enron years, I had attended a dasubachery of a dinner and
    never ending cocktails and had a Black-out in KC! So it can happen here :)

  14. It was caused by a combination of circumstances. This time of year is
    used for service of the nets and several backup systems were
    disconnected, the power cables to Germany and Poland were temporarily
    disconnected from the swedish-danish net.

    Some combination of faults led to the turnoff of two nuclear power
    stations, and they needed a few hours to startup again.

    The swedish net was privatized a few years ago, the southern part of
    Sweden is now run partly by a German power company.
    That could be a part of the reason.

    The whole swedish net has been reorganized and privatized

    I got a big electricity bill this spring because I, like many others,
    had missed that we now have to write a contract with some electricity
    company and agree on a price per kWh, earlier this was automatically
    set to a sensible price.

    If we do not write a contract we get to pay a spot-market price which
    is a lot higher.

    It is part of a development where the citizens are forced to take care
    themselves of a lot of things the state and the local councils took
    care of for us.
    Now people have to be very active, sort garbage, carry garbage,
    negotiate electricity prices, buy apartment instead of renting, invest
    pension funds..

    It is a lot more pressure on each individual to be very active and be
    informed about a lot of things, beside working and taking care of the
    family, do sports, etc..

    I think it is a new system to keep people occupied with a lot of
    things to do so the society becomes easier to rule.
    People who are kept on their toes and occupied with a lot of social
    and economic matters are easier to rule.

    That is also the reason for religion, traditional values, the holy
    marriage, eternal love, the holy spirit, mobbing, aggessiveness and
    rudeness. It is a culture pattern which make people easier to rule.

    It is easy to fool people into these cultural patterns and give them
    ideological justifications for upholding these patterns and teach the
    next generation the same lifestyle and attitudes.

    As a ruler you only have to push a little to keep it going, use
    production for profit as the driving force to keep the stress level
    high. Feed the masses a lot of strong emotions via media and they will
    be busy keeping themselves and others under control.
    They will be busy sorting their frenzied minds out, restlessness and
    workaholism, drug use, obsessions like sex or gambling will fluorish.

    It will be easy to stay in power and rule the people because their
    brains will be confused.
  15. Ian Buckner

    Ian Buckner Guest

    You can have high efficiency, or flexibility, but not both.

  16. Ban

    Ban Guest

    There are some weired facts disturbing the official version:
    1) The blackout occurred in the late night/early morning hours on the
    weekend, where consumption is usually 15-20% of the average only. In fact
    there are many pumping stations working filling up the reservoirs for peak
    consumption time. These could have been disconnected instantly.
    2) Trains were still operating until 6h15 and were reconnected 7h45.
    3) The climate is mellow, so neither A/C nor heating is needed yet.
    4) We already pay the highest prices in Europe for current.

    So speculations are this was a constructed blackout to politically achieve
    some unpopular decision (like increasing the price tag even more).

    ciao Ban
    Bordighera, Italy
  17. That is exactly what I suspect too.

    These blackouts are created on purpose to make the population realize
    that a constant supply of electricity is not guaranteed in any way, it
    is something we have to be ready to pay for, and pay more for.

    The price of electricity has been raised a lot here in Sweden and now
    they need a reason, like "we need more money to keep the nets in good
    shape so we can deliver electricity without interruptions".
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