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G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Matonak said:
Note to everyone else who isn't into feeding trolls.
It's better to simply NOT reply to trolls as it does no one any good.
Is George here a troll? I'll leave that up to the reader to decide.



NREL's numbers are based on real measurements. The calculations are
extensions from the measurements. For instance, how much money you
save by installed solar PV.

How many sites.
Yes, it has both Measurements and Calculations. Amazing.

In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that both
measurements and calculations are required to do a good job.


NREL data is collected in the real world. They are as real as you are
going to get short of recording numbers of your own for several decades.
Even that would be somewhat inaccurate at predicting the future because
the global climate is changing.

No problem with that. The data by extension to your argument is already
suspect due to climate change in the last 50 years.
So the tracker was malfunctioning? Was this the reason why his PV system
was "dead"? Are you proposing that all trackers don't work because you
found one tracker that wasn't working?

No, all the trackers I have seen were not working.
Did you fix the tracker? Was it an expensive repair? Do you expect that
you will need to fix this tracker often? Every month? Every year? Every
decade? Every century?

No. I did not fix it. It is SEP. I know the person who installed it
three months ago. A real cowboy. Treats design as an optional extra.
Yes, you've proved that a broken system doesn't work. Now the question
is how unreliable are trackers? Is the total lifetime cost of a system
with fewer panels and a tracker more or less than that of a system
with more panels and fixed mounts? It seems that you are saying that
since trackers CAN break that they are therefore too unreliable to use.

No, I said thet you have to make a choice. Doing so blindly is stupid.

A tracker with moving parts is subject to wear. Part of the cost.
What if you have more than six panels? The price of two panels out of
12 is 16% and not 33%. Clearly it's only uneconomical when you are
dealing with very small systems and very expensive trackers.

Very good. Except that as you increase the number of panels the size of
the tracker must also increase, along with cost.

A person who is cosidering the use of a tracker must take into account
all the relevant points before the purchase.

If they are beyond the grid, can they do the repairs themselves.
Does a tracker have to cost the same as two panels? Wattsun trackers
retail around $2,000 for 1200 watts of PV. PV can be purchased for
around $4/watt today so $2000 buys 500 watts. If these are 120 watt
panels the tracker would mount 12 of them and cost as much as 4.
If the tracker adds 33% then this array would produce as much as 16
panels. In this case the total cost seems nearly the same with or
without the tracker. Of course, the numbers would favor the tracker
if you didn't purchase it at full retail price. Discounts are common.

Not arguing the point.
Do you have to use a $2,000 Wattsun tracker? Of course not. You can
put together your own tracking mount using a $37 Redrok tracker, a
satellite drive and other commonly available parts. Total cost? I
don't know but it's not likely to be $2,000 and, as I showed above,
anything less makes tracking more affordable than buying more panels.

It's like asking the price of a Rolls Royce, if you have to ask you
can't afford it.

IF you can't build and maintain it yourself then you cant afford it.
Does the fact that this persons system had 6 panels on a tracker mean
that they would have saved money to buy 2 more panels and not have the
worry about repairing a busted tracker? Of course not. You didn't say
how old this system was. Solar PV prices have dropped since this system
was installed. It's quite likely that the tracker was more affordable
at that time than more panels. Since you mentioned that the motors were
still driving the panels then it's also likely the repair was quite
affordable (much less than buying two more panels). For this person,
repairing the broken tracker would then have been more affordable than
getting rid of it and replacing it with more panels.

Nice try. The system is four months old. Problems from day one. The
installer makes promises but never shows up.
Of course one size does not fit all. That's why blanket statements like
"The price of a tracker is around that of two panels." aren't accurate.
After all, what size panel? What size tracker? Which manufacturer?
Clearly, not all trackers cost the same, mount the same number of panels
and there are a wide range of sizes (and costs) for PV panels. One size
statements like that just don't fit all.
Whoop-de-do

The same idea, that trackers don't work or that they are not worth it,
obviously falls into that blanket statement category and is bound to
be incorrect somewhere, sometime.

Yes. But the point is that I had already pointed the poster in the
direction of Duane. My view of trackers is not everybodys.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gerat. First everyone says that "measure" is the way to go. Now it is
"calculate".

Here it is in a nutshell -

Measuring AC loads: cheap, fast, convenient, accurate. Web site data
alternative: varies from useful to useless.

Measuring tracker performance improvement: inconvenient, time
consuming. Web site data alternative: excellent.

Is it really that hard for you to see the difference?
While I was explaining the ins and outs of solar I watched the tracker
with six panels traverse 60 degrees in twenty minutes.

Some times things break. That's usually a clue that they need fixing.
One imagines you instead, having witnessed a flapping sole on a boot,
preaching a preference for barefootedness.
NREL. Better hope the site they used for their calculator is your back
yard.

One size does not fit all.

So you still haven't learned, despite having it politely and patiently
explained by someone *you* recommended as an expert on the subject.
<sigh>

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
No problem with that. The data by extension to your argument is already
suspect due to climate change in the last 50 years.

How much would you expect it to affect the *difference* between
tracking and non-tracking? And how does that compare to say, the
difference between the max power listed on a clothes washer's data
plate, and the appliance's energy consumption?
No, all the trackers I have seen were not working.

You might consider inventing a better class of clients...

If a system is already equipped with a tracker, then the wisdom of the
original purchase is moot. What's important is that replacement or
repair of a switch, controller, etc. is pretty damned cheap compared
to the value of the lost production, and the extra wear and tear on
the batteries.
It's like asking the price of a Rolls Royce, if you have to ask you
can't afford it.

Huh? A tracker is just another system component. They have advantages
and disadvantages. You're supposed to understand and take account of
*both*.
Nice try. The system is four months old. Problems from day one. The
installer makes promises but never shows up.

That has nothing at all to do with tracking. The installer would be
just as unresponsive if it was a the inverter or the charge controller
that needed attention.
Yes. But the point is that I had already pointed the poster in the
direction of Duane.

No, the point is that you deliberately continue to spread bogus
information even after Duane explained the *facts* to you.
My view of trackers is not everybodys.

Very misleading. It would be more accurate to say that your view of
trackers is contrary to most everyone else's.

Wayne
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Here it is in a nutshell -

Measuring AC loads: cheap, fast, convenient, accurate. Web site data
alternative: varies from useful to useless.

Measuring tracker performance improvement: inconvenient, time
consuming. Web site data alternative: excellent.

Is it really that hard for you to see the difference?


Some times things break. That's usually a clue that they need fixing.
One imagines you instead, having witnessed a flapping sole on a boot,
preaching a preference for barefootedness.

What he doesn't mention is that during those twenty minutes, the sun came
out from behind a cloud layer (or went behind one) :) So the tracker was
simply homing back to the eastern sunrise position a little too quickly, or
coming up to meet the sun after having already been reset to eastern
sunrise.

Leave out lots of details and most any system could appear to be broke. But
since George only goes by nameplates and doesn't measure real-world
behavior, he can't tell if the system was working correctly or not. He's
just convinced that he's never seen one working so they must all be broke.

Nor did he bother to offer to help the customer with his problem. Just
because he didn't make the 'design', he walks away from his customer's
'problem'. Could have made a lot of goodwill by taking a quick look at the
thing and offered up some help. But then of course, he'd have to know
something about trackers. And the only thing George knows about trackers is
"they don't work".

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Here it is in a nutshell -

No idea how you got two days autonomy.

No idea fo your input.

No idea of your laod.

In the nutshell, no idea
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
What he doesn't mention is that during those twenty minutes, the sun came
out from behind a cloud layer (or went behind one) :) So the tracker was
simply homing back to the eastern sunrise position a little too quickly, or
coming up to meet the sun after having already been reset to eastern
sunrise.

Went west actually
Leave out lots of details and most any system could appear to be broke. But
since George only goes by nameplates and doesn't measure real-world
behavior, he can't tell if the system was working correctly or not. He's
just convinced that he's never seen one working so they must all be broke.

Generator was not working.
Nor did he bother to offer to help the customer with his problem. Just
because he didn't make the 'design', he walks away from his customer's
'problem'. Could have made a lot of goodwill by taking a quick look at the
thing and offered up some help. But then of course, he'd have to know
something about trackers. And the only thing George knows about trackers is
"they don't work".

This is also not true. The system is four months old. Still under
warranty to the installer.

I also spent a bit of time explainimg that four kids an Xbox and a PS2
on top of a 159 watt TV was not the best idea for a battery set of only
390 Ah.

Now that 390 Ah being fed by 6 - 80W panels, on a tracker no less. A
Wayne system if ever there was one. This is what happens when balance is
ignored.

The new owner will get a new battery charger, from me.
As well as a correctly sized battery bank balanced with the reas of the
system.


The tracker will be repaired by the installer. And with any luck at all
his accreditation will be revoked. Finally.

The job is well in hand. The system will be brought into balance. The
customer will be happy.

Every tracker I have seen was not working. Nature of the job. I am the
guy that gets called because I sort out these things.

What I would like to see is a tracker that is working. Then I would not
have to fool with it.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
How much would you expect it to affect the *difference* between
tracking and non-tracking? And how does that compare to say, the
difference between the max power listed on a clothes washer's data
plate, and the appliance's energy consumption?
Drivel

You might consider inventing a better class of clients...

More drivel
If a system is already equipped with a tracker, then the wisdom of the
original purchase is moot. What's important is that replacement or
repair of a switch, controller, etc. is pretty damned cheap compared
to the value of the lost production, and the extra wear and tear on
the batteries.

Pointless drivel. I repair systems designed by people like you.
Huh? A tracker is just another system component. They have advantages
and disadvantages. You're supposed to understand and take account of
*both*.

Even more drivel.
That has nothing at all to do with tracking. The installer would be
just as unresponsive if it was a the inverter or the charge controller
that needed attention.

The tracker has failed to work properly from day one.
No, the point is that you deliberately continue to spread bogus
information even after Duane explained the *facts* to you.

No the POINT is that I pointed the poster to Duane, who has the best
chance of helping the poster in a positive manner if a tracker is sought.
Very misleading. It would be more accurate to say that your view of
trackers is contrary to most everyone else's.

My view comes from fixing the **** ups inflicted on people by fools like
you.


George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Every tracker I have seen was not working.

And yet you recently explained to someone in your capacity of "solar
power consultant" that trackers were good for "30% on a good day,
maybe", and "perhaps 10% for a good year". Did you arrive at these
numbers using your intuition, or was the info on the data plate?

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I repair systems designed by people like you.

You've said several times that I have a nice system. Exactly what
repairs do you do on nice systems? Perhaps you add 40 ft. to their
wind generator towers, and disable their trackers... Got photos of any
of that?
My view comes from fixing the **** ups inflicted on people by fools like
you.

It would appear that your views come mostly from your need to
contradict others. And a good job you've been doing! BTW, did you know
that the Pope is Catholic?

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
a battery set of only
390 Ah.

Ahrs without voltage.... for about the 100th time. Perhaps there's
only one voltage in Oz, therefore it's assumed? Please try to remember
that this is an international forum, and some of us haven't converted
to the one-voltage standard.
Every tracker I have seen was not working. Nature of the job. I am the
guy that gets called because I sort out these things.

If you haven't seen one working, then you haven't been doing much
sorting. How many have you worked on that you've never seen working?
The tracker will be repaired by the installer.
What I would like to see is a tracker that is working.

Then you might start by seeking out the type of customer who wouldn't
normally hire you. Anyway, you said that the tracker in your story is
soon to be fixed, so your first viewing opportunity is finally at hand
after 18 long years. Hallelujah! Only two more working trackers to
track down, and you'll have equaled the number I see every day by
looking out my window. I think you're going to be disappointed though,
they only tend to do something interesting when you're not looking.
Geez, hope I didn't spoil it for you.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Ahrs without voltage.... for about the 100th time. Perhaps there's
only one voltage in Oz, therefore it's assumed? Please try to remember
that this is an international forum, and some of us haven't converted
to the one-voltage standard.


If you haven't seen one working, then you haven't been doing much
sorting. How many have you worked on that you've never seen working?



Then you might start by seeking out the type of customer who wouldn't
normally hire you. Anyway, you said that the tracker in your story is
soon to be fixed, so your first viewing opportunity is finally at hand
after 18 long years. Hallelujah! Only two more working trackers to
track down, and you'll have equaled the number I see every day by
looking out my window. I think you're going to be disappointed though,
they only tend to do something interesting when you're not looking.
Geez, hope I didn't spoil it for you.

Wayne

More Drivel
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
And yet you recently explained to someone in your capacity of "solar
power consultant" that trackers were good for "30% on a good day,
maybe", and "perhaps 10% for a good year". Did you arrive at these
numbers using your intuition, or was the info on the data plate?

Wayne

Sorry, but you see I know alot of people in the industry he and this
information comes under the heading of "Anecdotal".

These are people who know what they are doin. With real data logged.

I don't get call outs for their systems.

OTOH systems designed by people who are unable to account for the days
of autonomy make me money.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
You've said several times that I have a nice system. Exactly what
repairs do you do on nice systems? Perhaps you add 40 ft. to their
wind generator towers, and disable their trackers... Got photos of any
of that?

That is right it is a nice clean install. Totaly devoid of design but a
nice clean install.
It would appear that your views come mostly from your need to
contradict others. And a good job you've been doing! BTW, did you know
that the Pope is Catholic?

And Polish to boot. I myself am half Italian so I only belive in half
the Pope.

My statement still stands. How do you define your two days autonomy?
Where are the supporting data?
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry, but you see I know alot of people in the industry he and this
information comes under the heading of "Anecdotal".

These are people who know what they are doin. With real data logged.

Ah yes, anecdotal data, very impressive. Interesting that you didn't
think to bring up this "data" back in September when Duane
specifically asked for some. Maybe you just forgot. <snorf> But how do
you explain the fact that this data from "people in the industry"
differs so much from genuine industry accepted figures? And how is it
that you've never seen a working tracker when you know all these folks
who would have been monitoring several over a years-long period?
Perhaps you could provide their URL. Or are they "in the industry" the
same way that you are?

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
That is right it is a nice clean install. Totaly devoid of design but a
nice clean install.

Too bad we couldn't have incorporated "design features" like being in
discharge mode three quarters of the time, and frequent battery
replacements. Or going out to the barn to start the generator for
every load over a few hundred Watts. Instead we thought it would be
nice to use tracking to shorten battery discharge time, have the
ability to plug in appliances anywhere in the building, and make
running a generator a rare event. If only we could have avoided all
those weird ideas eh George?

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Ah yes, anecdotal data, very impressive. Interesting that you didn't
think to bring up this "data" back in September when Duane
specifically asked for some. Maybe you just forgot. <snorf> But how do
you explain the fact that this data from "people in the industry"
differs so much from genuine industry accepted figures? And how is it
that you've never seen a working tracker when you know all these folks
who would have been monitoring several over a years-long period?
Perhaps you could provide their URL. Or are they "in the industry" the
same way that you are?

Wayne

More pointless drivel
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Too bad we couldn't have incorporated "design features" like being in
discharge mode three quarters of the time, and frequent battery
replacements. Or going out to the barn to start the generator for
every load over a few hundred Watts. Instead we thought it would be
nice to use tracking to shorten battery discharge time, have the
ability to plug in appliances anywhere in the building, and make
running a generator a rare event. If only we could have avoided all
those weird ideas eh George?

Wayne

No you went for a battery bank that is too small to provid enough
storage for what you produce.

Work when the sun is there. A very hand to mouth design.

This sort of design accounts for your inability to work out two days
autonomy.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
No you went for a battery bank that is too small to provid enough
storage for what you produce.

And yet we rarely need a backup generator, and are still on our first
set of batteries. While you're on your what...fourth, fifth? Are you
saying that it's the *good* <snorf> "designs" like yours that go
through batteries? And how would you know anything about my batteries
anyway... you've claimed a couple of times recently that I haven't
provided any information beyond their weight. Perhaps you could use
your intuition. I'm thinking of a number.....
Work when the sun is there.

No sun now. Me post.
A very hand to mouth design.

"Hand to mouth" would be if we relied on a propane delivery truck, or
had to run the generator to use the workshop. Does that sound like
anyone you know?

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
More pointless drivel

"Pointless" is attempting to justify ill-informed opinion by telling
transparent lies about invisible "people in the industry". "Drivel" is
bad advice about tracking posted by a nitwit who has never owned a
tracker, never sold a tracker, never installed a tracker, and has
never even seen a working tracker.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
"Pointless" is attempting to justify ill-informed opinion by telling
transparent lies about invisible "people in the industry". "Drivel" is
bad advice about tracking posted by a nitwit who has never owned a
tracker, never sold a tracker, never installed a tracker, and has
never even seen a working tracker.

Wayne

Back on your moped.
 
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