Battery charging

[George Ghio]

What do I do about charging? Well not a lot really. You see, when you
correctly size a system for your load, being honest about the numbers,
you end up with a system that works as planned. I seldom need to run the
battery charger.

My philosophy on battery charging.

Yes it is important that you not let them remain at a low state of
charge for long periods, on the other hand they do not need to reach
100% charge every single day either. I will run the little generator to
charge my batteries if they drop to around 12 Volts (but like the fine
print says "Conditions Apply")

1) Condition: Batteries read 12 volts (or less) at four o'clock in the
afternoon.

2) Condition: I know the sun won't be out tomorrow.

3) Condition: I need to use the computer for several hours that night.

4) Condition: There will be three hours of Red Dwarf on TV that night.


It takes at least two of these conditions to warrant the running of the
generator. And even then it comes down to gut feeling.

And when it comes to charging the batteries I am not trying to bring
them up to 100%. I am doing what I call ''Maintenance Charging'' which
is to say that I only require that they be in the top twenty per cent of
their capacity.

Yes I know it sounds like it's too easy, but the thing is that when
I started with solar power there was almost no information other than
guess work and trial and error. My life with solar power is pretty easy
these days because of what I learned from two or three disastrous years
in the beginning.

So let's say it's 4:00pm and I check the battery voltage on the reg. The
voltage reads 12V. The weather forecast is for rain for the next two
days and I have a rather lengthy paper due and expect to be on the
computer for 5 or 6 hours.

So I make a decision. I will run the battery charger. The charger is a
35Amp alternator on a petrol motor. The regulator for this rig is a
large ceramic rheostat salvaged from a very old spot welder.

The battery charger actually puts out 30 Amps and 16-17 volts at max
engine rpm. The tank holds enough fuel to run for approx. 3.5 hours when
filled to the top.

Usually around three hours of runtime will bring my batteries up to 15
volts. On some occasions I will turn the rheo down and wait for the
batteries to come back up to 15V. I may do this a couple of times, this
is of course dependent on what the voltage was at 4:00pm and what I know
about the voltage and the temp. for the last several days.

The numbers? Well, they mostly look after themselves. After nearly
twenty years of doing this sort of thing I really don't look at the
numbers any more. The reg likes to tell me that the batteries are at
100% charge. I sometimes think that it is not very honest for a little
black box.

Probably the most important thing to remember is that all the readings
are taken from a running system. As such the readings are not a true and
correct voltage reading. I do not rest the batteries, nor do I take into
account any voltage drop associated with what may be running at the time.

When the batteries read fifteen volts and I shut off the charger, I know
that if there is no load from this point on, the batteries will read
12.7 volts in the morning. What a surprise 12.7 volts is just what a
fully charged 12 volt battery should be.

Do I recommend this for everyone with a solar power system? NO!
Absolutely not.

Unless you are prepared to watch the voltage while charging you would be
best advised to use an automatic charger.

When I next run the charger I will make note of what the regulator is
telling me and relate it in this group. Don't hold your breath. I have
no control of the weather. At the moment we are in a cycle of cold
frosty mornings and cool to cold sunny days. Ideal weather for
photovoltaics.

Wayne says that I don't run my charger enough.

"Truth is the inquiring minds food, but is often bitter to the taste.
Most people prefer the savoury lie"

An example

Sunday, June 11, 2006. Voltage readings from my regulator. Overcast day
with periods of sun. Note voltage readings for 11 and 12AM as sun breaks
through.

10AM - 12.3V
11AM - 13 - 13.5V
12AM - 13.7 - 13.9V
1PM - 12.9V
2PM - 14V
3PM - 12.9V
4PM - 12.7V

This is the truth of my system. Wayne finds it bitter so he creates a
savoury lie that makes him feel good.

But as can be seen, 4:00PM and the batteries are at 12.7V. Yes, this
reading is not the true and correct voltage of the batteries. But, after
nearly twenty years of life with batteries I know that this is high
enough not to place my batteries in stress.

By far, most of the people who post here prefer the savoury lie and
there are many who are willing to support the lies because they also
want to feel good about what they are doing. Irregardless of the fact
that they only want to hear what makes them feel good, even if it is not
the truth.

Merlin keeps posting about his dead battery in the hopes that people
will tell him what he wants to hear, i.e. "You poor thing, don't worry
if you keep charging the battery it will magically revive." It may, but
I sure wouldn't hold my breath.

The truth is, Merlin has been flogging that battery for around two
months now and there has been no miraculous resurrection.

Parallel batteries are not a good choice.

Parallel batteries of different types, capacities and age are a dead loss.

More than two parallel strings of batteries are such a dead loss that
you can smell the rot from several hundred metres away.

Now we come to today, 12 June 2006.

It is now 4:00PM and the reg reads 12V. I'm not surprised as it has been
a fairly overcast day. Tomorrow looks to be the same forecast so tonight
I will run the battery charger generator.

5:30PM - Reg reads 12V so I start the gen set.
5:31PM - 12.5V
6:00PM - 13.4V
6:30PM - 13.5V
7:00PM - 13.6V
7:30PM - 14V
8:00PM - 14.5V
8:30PM - 15.1V

Generator out put;

30 Amps @ 16Volts

Works for me. On very rare occasions my battery set might reach 70% max
DOD. But not often. My daily DoD is around 12% (1.2kWh/day).

My system was designed for the Peak Sun Hours of the 22 June. I like to
keep my batteries charged. But, if required, my system will run with no
input at all for an honest five days of autonomy, without some mystical
reduced load.

Bitter truth or savoury lies. If you only want answers that make you
feel good - say so up front. But remember, "There is no substitute for a
properly sized and designed system. Whether you like it or not."

 

[wmbjk]

What do I do about charging? Well not a lot really. You see, when you
correctly size a system for your load, being honest about the numbers

Good. When will you *begin* being honest about your battery charging
stories George?

you end up with a system that works as planned. I seldom need to run the
battery charger.

My philosophy on battery charging.

Yes it is important that you not let them remain at a low state of
charge for long periods, on the other hand they do not need to reach
100% charge every single day either. I will run the little generator to
charge my batteries if they drop to around 12 Volts (but like the fine
print says "Conditions Apply")

You're talking about *system* voltage. Repeatedly referring to
"battery" voltage is very unprofessional. Something closer to proper
terminology would make your "lessons" less silly.

1) Condition: Batteries read 12 volts (or less) at four o'clock in the
afternoon.

Without knowing the loads, your system voltage doesn't help readers
estimate your SOC But we shouldn't have to estimate. Simply *tell* us
the SOC. Surely you agree that you should know it. Given your
experience it's something you ought to know by instinct within 20%.
You should be able to get within 10% using experience combined with a
voltmeter. With a hydrometer you could tell us exactly. You do own a
hydrometer right? Then why beat around the bush with an irrelevant
system voltage?

2) Condition: I know the sun won't be out tomorrow.

3) Condition: I need to use the computer for several hours that night.

4) Condition: There will be three hours of Red Dwarf on TV that night.


It takes at least two of these conditions to warrant the running of the
generator. And even then it comes down to gut feeling.

And when it comes to charging the batteries I am not trying to bring
them up to 100%. I am doing what I call ''Maintenance Charging''
which
is to say that I only require that they be in the top twenty per cent of
their capacity.

Yes I know it sounds like it's too easy, but the thing is that when
I started with solar power there was almost no information other than
guess work and trial and error. My life with solar power is pretty easy
these days because of what I learned from two or three disastrous years
in the beginning.

So let's say it's 4:00pm and I check the battery voltage

on the reg. The
voltage reads 12V. The weather forecast is for rain for the next two
days and I have a rather lengthy paper due and expect to be on the
computer for 5 or 6 hours.

So I make a decision. I will run the battery charger. The charger is a
35Amp alternator on a petrol motor. The regulator for this rig is a
large ceramic rheostat salvaged from a very old spot welder.

The battery charger actually puts out 30 Amps and 16-17 volts at max
engine rpm.

The tank holds enough fuel to run for approx. 3.5 hours when
filled to the top.

Usually around three hours of runtime will bring my batteries up to 15
volts. On some occasions I will turn the rheo down and wait for the
batteries to come back up to 15V. I may do this a couple of times, this
is of course dependent on what the voltage was at 4:00pm and what I know
about the voltage and the temp. for the last several days.

The numbers? Well, they mostly look after themselves. After nearly
twenty years of doing this sort of thing I really don't look at the
numbers any more. The reg likes to tell me that the batteries are at
100% charge. I sometimes think that it is not very honest for a little
black box.

Then you should be able to relate.... If you charge at 30A for 3
hours, then the most you can replace is 90Ah, which is 10.7% of an
840Ah battery's capacity. Less if you're tapering the charge by
diddling with the rheostat. Your "conditions" indicate a somewhat low
battery SOC, and you state that you're happy to get to 80% full. If
you add 10%, and end up at 80, then you started at 70. Unfortunately
you repeat your old claim (below) that the batteries are full when you
finish. Which means that you'd have to start at ~90%. Why would you
start at 90 if your target is 80?

Probably the most important thing to remember is that all the readings
are taken from a running system. As such the readings are not a true and
correct voltage reading. I do not rest the batteries, nor do I take into
account any voltage drop associated with what may be running at the time.
When the batteries read fifteen volts and I shut off the charger, I know
that if there is no load from this point on, the batteries will read
12.7 volts in the morning. What a surprise 12.7 volts is just what a
fully charged 12 volt battery should be.

Not much of a surprise, it's exactly what you said seven months ago,
and it still sinks your story. If the rested voltage is 12.7, then the
charging *must* have started at ~90%.

Which begs the obvious question - why would you be running a charger
when you haven't even exhausted a single day's portion of your 5 day's
autonomy?

Do I recommend this for everyone with a solar power system? NO!
Absolutely not.

Unless you are prepared to watch the voltage while charging you would be
best advised to use an automatic charger.

Whether a charger is automatic or manual, the operator ought to be
able to explain the purpose and results of his charging in plain
English. Which doesn't include writing in circles for months.

When I next run the charger I will make note of what the regulator is
telling me and relate it in this group. Don't hold your breath.
I have
no control of the weather. At the moment we are in a cycle of cold
frosty mornings and cool to cold sunny days. Ideal weather for
photovoltaics.

Above you say that the weather "at the moment" is ideal for PV, yet
below you write that on June 12 you ran the generator. One would
expect perhaps three days between ideal conditions and needing a
backup charge right? Don't tell me you started writing that tripe on
the ninth!

Wayne says that I don't run my charger enough.

No quote? I'm shocked.

"Truth is the inquiring minds food, but is often bitter to the taste.
Most people prefer the savoury lie"

Not most people, but you obviously. Such as repeatedly claiming that a
30A charger can take an 840Ah battery from a somewhat low SOC to
fully-charged in three hours. And writing long-winded explanations
which only prove that you're both ignorant and transparently
deceptive.

An example

Sunday, June 11, 2006. Voltage readings from my regulator. Overcast day
with periods of sun. Note voltage readings for 11 and 12AM as sun breaks
through.

10AM - 12.3V
11AM - 13 - 13.5V
12AM - 13.7 - 13.9V
1PM - 12.9V
2PM - 14V
3PM - 12.9V
4PM - 12.7V

This is the truth of my system. Wayne finds it bitter so he creates a
savoury lie that makes him feel good.

There isn't anything savory about your BS George. Better terms might
be pathetic, pointless, self-destructive, and at times entertaining
(in a train wreck kind of way).

But as can be seen, 4:00PM and the batteries are at 12.7V. Yes, this
reading is not the true and correct voltage of the batteries. But, after
nearly twenty years of life with batteries I know that this is high
enough not to place my batteries in stress.
By far, most of the people who post here prefer the savoury lie

No, most people here write in plain English. You're the only poster
for whom readers usually need Weasel to English translations.

there are many who are willing to support the lies because they also
want to feel good about what they are doing. Irregardless of the fact
that they only want to hear what makes them feel good, even if it is not
the truth.

Sounds like a conspiracy... have you tried tinfoil preventative
measures?

Merlin keeps posting about his dead battery in the hopes that people
will tell him what he wants to hear, i.e. "You poor thing, don't worry
if you keep charging the battery it will magically revive."

I must have missed that. Please supply the quotes where anyone told
him that his battery *will* revive.

It may, but
I sure wouldn't hold my breath.

Can we get you to change your mind on that breath-holding?

The truth is, Merlin has been flogging that battery for around two
months now and there has been no miraculous resurrection.

IIRC, he commenced his "nothing to lose" charging experiment a few
days ago.

Parallel batteries are not a good choice.

Parallel batteries of different types, capacities and age are a dead loss.

More than two parallel strings of batteries are such a dead loss that
you can smell the rot from several hundred metres away.

Have you tried using your sense of smell to determine battery SOC?

Now we come to today, 12 June 2006.

It is now 4:00PM and the reg reads 12V. I'm not surprised as it has been
a fairly overcast day. Tomorrow looks to be the same forecast so tonight
I will run the battery charger generator.

5:30PM - Reg reads 12V so I start the gen set.
5:31PM - 12.5V
6:00PM - 13.4V
6:30PM - 13.5V
7:00PM - 13.6V
7:30PM - 14V
8:00PM - 14.5V
8:30PM - 15.1V

Generator out put;

30 Amps @ 16Volts
Works for me. On very rare occasions my battery set might reach 70% max
DOD.

Rare huh? OK then, let's say that you sometimes get down to 60% DOD, a
reasonable point to run a backup generator. Your typical charging run
as described replaces ~10%, bringing you up to 50% DOD. So far so
good. But what is the likelihood that after half charging your
batteries, that they'd somehow have a rested voltage of 12.7 the
following (overcast) morning? Do your fairies bring Ahrs instead of
fetching teeth?

But not often. My daily DoD is around 12% (1.2kWh/day).

My system was designed for the Peak Sun Hours of the 22 June. I like to
keep my batteries charged. But, if required, my system will run with no
input at all for an honest five days of autonomy, without some mystical
reduced load.

Most off-gridders use an engine-driven generator to either catch up
their batteries when other sources aren't sufficient, or to equalize.
There are clues in your posts that you're trying to do some of both at
the same time, which isn't possible. It appears you've decided to join
two completely separate stories, yet pigheadedly refuse to believe
that no amount of irrelevant elaboration can hide the stitches. No
matter. You've had seven months to withdraw your claim that your
charging routine results in fully-charged batteries. Instead you've
repeated the absurdity. Therefore we should conclude that your
charging *must* begin at about 90% SOC. Do you think anyone will
believe that you stayed above 90% for seven months between generator
runs? Or that a "power consultant" could somehow be sincere while
writing dozens of irreconcilable posts without ever coming close to
simply stating the battery SOC? The mind boggles.

Wayne

 

[Landline]

George would it not make sense where you live to have a wind generator as a
backup instead of a noisy smelly expensive to run engine generator? The
wind figures for your area appear to support a wind generator.
Considering now wind generators are so ridiculously cheap this would surely
be the choice of smart operators.
I have a wind generator.

--

What do I do about charging? Well not a lot really. You see, when you
correctly size a system for your load, being honest about the numbers,
you end up with a system that works as planned. I seldom need to run the
battery charger.

My philosophy on battery charging.

<major snip to save strange electrons>

 

[Landline]

George would it not make sense where you live to have a wind generator as a
backup instead of a noisy smelly expensive to run engine generator? The
wind figures for your area appear to support a wind generator.
Considering now wind generators are so ridiculously cheap this would surely
be the choice of smart operators.
I have a wind generator.

 

[George Ghio]

Apparently your batteries are severely sulphated and showing a high internal
resistance.

Better check it out!

NM

Actually my batteries are in very good condition. This is easy to tell
as they are clear cases and visual inspection is easy.

 

[George Ghio]

No one ever told me that the battery will MAGICALLY REVIVE.
I started the post asking what could have caused the problem and after
eliminating over chargeing and serious underchargeing on my end. The only
thing that I can come up with is the battery was discharged badly at one
time befor I bought it then charged prior to shipping to me. (I came to that
conclusion after many tests of my system and prosedures)

No. you have been fishing for the answer you want to hear ever since you
first posted about your battery failure.

As I recall my fist post about the problem was about 3-4 weeks ago and no
one said it would recover but it may be worth trying to charge it slowly
over a very long period of time ( ok I have no problem with doing that, I
have a 3 watt solar panel that I connected to the battery and will leave it
connected to the battery for a year before I will give up the experiment. It
is nothing more than an experiment. If it works ...it works...if it does not
...than nothing lost but a bit of my time logging info..
BTW- the battery's voltage has been going up very slowly when I check it in
the morning before I go to work. That does not mean a whole lot but it is
one positive sign.
I do not expect a full recovery but then again I do not know of anyone that
has tried to slowly charge a battery over a year.

I plan on doing a load test on this battery in the next few weeks and see
if it is making any head way but a load test too soon may damage the battery
further. so depending on battery voltage reading in the morning, I will put
that off until the battery reads at least 12.7 in the morning after it has
not been on charge for over 10 hours. (It is reading 12.64 now and has been
going up .02 to .03 volts a day)

We will see what happens.

As for more than 2 banks of batteries...

Sure you can run more than 2 banks, even a mix of different kinds of
batteries. As long as you use the same type in each bank and charge each
bank separately once a month or so. NO it is not the best way to do things
and requires you to switch your charge controller from one bank to another
but it does work.

NO. It will work for a time but in the end you will have ruined more
batteries. Seen it all, far too many times. You will learn, how much you
pay for the lesson is up to you.

 

[George Ghio]

Don't I wish. Unfortunately my site does not lend itself to wind. Not
flat country.

While wind gen's are quite cheap the 200 foot tower is not.

On your other point I ran the battery charger for the first time
yesterday, in something like 10 months. Not exactly breaking the bank is
it?

 

[George Ghio]

George,

Aside from the flogging of Joe, I've actually got a serious question.
I'm wondering (and maybe I've missed it, I apologize if I have) what is
the ah of your bank? I assume that you're using a 6 volt based series
bank.

840Ah @ 120 Hour rate.

One - 6 x 2volt series string.

Daily load is 1.2kWh

 

[George Ghio]

So now the savoury lies start.

Good. When will you *begin* being honest about your battery charging
stories George?




You're talking about *system* voltage. Repeatedly referring to
"battery" voltage is very unprofessional. Something closer to proper
terminology would make your "lessons" less silly.




Without knowing the loads, your system voltage doesn't help readers
estimate your SOC But we shouldn't have to estimate. Simply *tell* us
the SOC. Surely you agree that you should know it. Given your
experience it's something you ought to know by instinct within 20%.
You should be able to get within 10% using experience combined with a
voltmeter. With a hydrometer you could tell us exactly. You do own a
hydrometer right? Then why beat around the bush with an irrelevant
system voltage?







Then you should be able to relate.... If you charge at 30A for 3
hours, then the most you can replace is 90Ah, which is 10.7% of an
840Ah battery's capacity. Less if you're tapering the charge by
diddling with the rheostat. Your "conditions" indicate a somewhat low
battery SOC, and you state that you're happy to get to 80% full. If
you add 10%, and end up at 80, then you started at 70. Unfortunately
you repeat your old claim (below) that the batteries are full when you
finish. Which means that you'd have to start at ~90%. Why would you
start at 90 if your target is 80?




Not much of a surprise, it's exactly what you said seven months ago,
and it still sinks your story. If the rested voltage is 12.7, then the
charging *must* have started at ~90%.

Which begs the obvious question - why would you be running a charger
when you haven't even exhausted a single day's portion of your 5 day's
autonomy?




Whether a charger is automatic or manual, the operator ought to be
able to explain the purpose and results of his charging in plain
English. Which doesn't include writing in circles for months.




Above you say that the weather "at the moment" is ideal for PV, yet
below you write that on June 12 you ran the generator. One would
expect perhaps three days between ideal conditions and needing a
backup charge right? Don't tell me you started writing that tripe on
the ninth!




No quote? I'm shocked.




Not most people, but you obviously. Such as repeatedly claiming that a
30A charger can take an 840Ah battery from a somewhat low SOC to
fully-charged in three hours. And writing long-winded explanations
which only prove that you're both ignorant and transparently
deceptive.




There isn't anything savory about your BS George. Better terms might
be pathetic, pointless, self-destructive, and at times entertaining
(in a train wreck kind of way).




No, most people here write in plain English. You're the only poster
for whom readers usually need Weasel to English translations.




Sounds like a conspiracy... have you tried tinfoil preventative
measures?




I must have missed that. Please supply the quotes where anyone told
him that his battery *will* revive.




Can we get you to change your mind on that breath-holding?




IIRC, he commenced his "nothing to lose" charging experiment a few
days ago.




Have you tried using your sense of smell to determine battery SOC?




Rare huh? OK then, let's say that you sometimes get down to 60% DOD, a
reasonable point to run a backup generator. Your typical charging run
as described replaces ~10%, bringing you up to 50% DOD. So far so
good. But what is the likelihood that after half charging your
batteries, that they'd somehow have a rested voltage of 12.7 the
following (overcast) morning? Do your fairies bring Ahrs instead of
fetching teeth?




Most off-gridders use an engine-driven generator to either catch up
their batteries when other sources aren't sufficient, or to equalize.
There are clues in your posts that you're trying to do some of both at
the same time, which isn't possible. It appears you've decided to join
two completely separate stories, yet pigheadedly refuse to believe
that no amount of irrelevant elaboration can hide the stitches. No
matter. You've had seven months to withdraw your claim that your
charging routine results in fully-charged batteries. Instead you've
repeated the absurdity. Therefore we should conclude that your
charging *must* begin at about 90% SOC. Do you think anyone will
believe that you stayed above 90% for seven months between generator
runs? Or that a "power consultant" could somehow be sincere while
writing dozens of irreconcilable posts without ever coming close to
simply stating the battery SOC? The mind boggles.

Wayne

 

[Landline]

George what do you have in the way of solar panels
Any pictures of your setup?

 

[[email protected]]

While wind gen's are quite cheap the 200 foot tower is not.

.... 200' of rope is cheap, with an H2 dirigible. I just bought 600'
of 1/4" yellow polypropylene for $9.99 from Harbor Freight.

Nick

 

[George Ghio]

... 200' of rope is cheap, with an H2 dirigible. I just bought 600'
of 1/4" yellow polypropylene for $9.99 from Harbor Freight.

Nick

When are you going to stop yapping and do something?

 

[George Ghio]

Actually, no I don't have pictures.

6 x 85watt BP panels

A point of interest is that when I run the battery charger I replicate
what the panels do.

 

[[email protected]]

When are you going to stop yapping and do something?

When will you stop beating your wife?

Nick

 

[wmbjk]

So now the savoury lies start.

George, the only lie here is from you. I believe that you bungled the
original story, and as usual are too spineless to own up to the
mistake. One can't take a battery from a somewhat low SOS to fully
charged by adding only 10%. It just ain't possible, and no amount of
your strained elaborations can change that. I do hope you keep trying
though...

Wayne

 

[wmbjk]

Apparently your batteries are severely sulphated and showing a high internal
resistance.

Better check it out!

NM

Batteries that haven't been equalized for ten months (and probably
never) sulphated? Naw, that can't be it, because even George would
notice the lost capacity. Assuming he'd tell anyone... Now that I
think about it though, about 2 years ago he announced that he intended
to replace these batteries. Later he changed his tune and said they
didn't need replacing. Hmm... Still, they'd have to be in really bad
shape to account for the contradictions in his charging story. They
*could* be that bad. But considering his history, I think it's more
likely that he wrote himself into a hole with senseless hyperbole and
is now trying to write himself out. Supplying a few simple details
like the beginning and ending SOC would be a lot easier for him and
better for his rep. Instead, as usual, he prefers to do things the
painful way.

Wayne

 

[wmbjk]

Don't I wish. Unfortunately my site does not lend itself to wind. Not
flat country.

My site is as rugged as any, with some ~1000' elevation changes in a
half mile. Yet like so many others in "not flat" country, wind power
is a major portion of my supply.

While wind gen's are quite cheap the 200 foot tower is not.

You only *believe* you need a tower that tall. In fact you believe a
lot of strange stuff. It seems to me that being a renegade has cost
you more than any tower ever could.

On your other point I ran the battery charger for the first time
yesterday, in something like 10 months. Not exactly breaking the bank is
it?

Then why do you "wish" for wind power Shakespeare?

Wayne

 

[wmbjk]

A point of interest is that when I run the battery charger I replicate
what the panels do.

But your panels aren't capable of finishing your battery maker's
recommended absorption charge (according to you). Neither are they
capable of equalization. Most owners in that situation would want
their backup source to cover those two deficiencies. Would you say
that the battery manufacturer doesn't know as much as a guy on his
fifth set of batteries? Or is that the company's recommendations on
absorption and equalization don't apply to self-titled "power
consultants"?

Wayne

 

[George Ghio]

I never beat my wife, she's a wicked card player.

When are you going to stop beating your meat and build one of your fantasys.

 

[George Ghio]

And the savoury lies continue.

My site is as rugged as any, with some ~1000' elevation changes in a
half mile. Yet like so many others in "not flat" country, wind power
is a major portion of my supply.




You only *believe* you need a tower that tall. In fact you believe a
lot of strange stuff. It seems to me that being a renegade has cost
you more than any tower ever could.




Then why do you "wish" for wind power Shakespeare?

Wayne