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Batteries and Hydrogen

G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
³It's amazing that you can get all that energy from a chemical reaction
occurring inside that little black box. But, along with that chemical
reaction you get something else, HYDROGEN VAPORS. Do you remember the
Hindenburg? No, I don't mean you're that old. You probably heard about
it from your parents or grandparents, right? Well let me refresh your
memory. Apparently a static electrical spark was all that was needed to
ignite the hydrogen vapors that the Hindenburg used to stay afloat.

These same explosive vapors are present anytime your battery charges OR
discharges. And all it takes is a little spark to ignite those fumes and
cause an explosion. Your battery contains sulfuric acid and water.
During the chemical action created during charging or discharging,
hydrogen vapors are released and then are trapped under the hood.²





Just some of the resulting information on batteries after a search on
google for <exploding batteries discharging>.

Sort of puts paid to the experts (ex - a has been, spurt - a drip under
pressure) here who would have you believe that batteries do not produce
hydrogen during discharge.

Seems that George was right after all. Still thats no surprise.
 
M

m II

Jan 1, 1970
0
George said:
³It's amazing that you can get all that energy from a chemical reaction
occurring inside that little black box. But, along with that chemical
reaction you get something else, HYDROGEN VAPORS. Do you remember the
Hindenburg? No, I don't mean you're that old. You probably heard about
it from your parents or grandparents, right? Well let me refresh your
memory. Apparently a static electrical spark was all that was needed to
ignite the hydrogen vapors that the Hindenburg used to stay afloat.


The fine silvery aluminium powder used in the fabric 'dope' probably contributed
to the fire more than the hydrogen. There is also a question of whether the
Hindenburg was sabotaged by US forces for propaganda purposes.





mike
 
G

G. R. L. Cowan

Jan 1, 1970
0
George said:
³It's amazing that you can get all that energy from a chemical reaction
occurring inside that little black box. But, along with that chemical
reaction you get something else, HYDROGEN VAPORS. Do you remember the
Hindenburg? No, I don't mean you're that old. You probably heard about
it from your parents or grandparents, right? Well let me refresh your
memory. Apparently a static electrical spark was all that was needed to
ignite the hydrogen vapors that the Hindenburg used to stay afloat.

These same explosive vapors are present anytime your battery charges ...

No need of hydrogen if you have an onboard (11-B)2O3-cooled
nuclear reactor. It might make for a somewhat big car,
requiring extra-thick roadway foundations.



--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html --
how individual mobility gains nuclear cachet
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
³It's amazing that you can get all that energy from a chemical reaction
occurring inside that little black box. But, along with that chemical
reaction you get something else, HYDROGEN VAPORS. Do you remember the
Hindenburg? No, I don't mean you're that old. You probably heard about
it from your parents or grandparents, right? Well let me refresh your
memory. Apparently a static electrical spark was all that was needed to
ignite the hydrogen vapors that the Hindenburg used to stay afloat.


The fine silvery aluminium powder used in the fabric 'dope' probably
contributed
to the fire more than the hydrogen. There is also a question of whether the
Hindenburg was sabotaged by US forces for propaganda purposes.





mike[/QUOTE]

So. Batteries still generate Hydrogen during charging and DISCHARGING.
Dispite the claims by several self styled experts in these groups.
 
M

Me

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
So. Batteries still generate Hydrogen during charging and DISCHARGING.
Dispite the claims by several self styled experts in these groups.

So, the relative probubility of having a battery explode, while either
charging, or discharging, is insignificant, when compared to the number
of batteries in use around the world, on a daily basis. A Jet airplane
engine can fall out of the sky a hit you on the head, but your chances
of that happening, are insignificant as well. Just our luck..........


Me
 
J

John Beardmore

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
These same explosive vapors are present anytime your battery charges OR
discharges.

I hope you can show us the cell reactions for these reactions !


J/.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
So. Batteries still generate Hydrogen during charging and DISCHARGING.
Dispite the claims by several self styled experts in these groups.

Care to discuss amounts? Does a battery that is being charged at 20 amps
generate the same amount of hydrogen as one being discharged at 20 amps??
What about the voltage level, does a battery that is being charged at 20
amps at 2.2 volts per cell at the beginning of re-charging generate the same
amount of hydrogen as a battery being charged the same 20 amps, but later in
the charge at 2.5 volts per cell? You should find that the amount generated
during *discharge* is much less than that generated when/if overcharging.

In commercial stationary battery applications, it is quite common to have
*different* ventilation requirements for charging and discharging. Yes,
discharging or floating still requires ventilation and safety precautions,
but *charging* evolves more hydrogen.

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Beardmore said:
I hope you can show us the cell reactions for these reactions !


J/.

Well, do the search on google,

"exploding batteries discharging"

Lots of pages. Have fun.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Care to discuss amounts? Does a battery that is being charged at 20 amps
generate the same amount of hydrogen as one being discharged at 20 amps??
What about the voltage level, does a battery that is being charged at 20
amps at 2.2 volts per cell at the beginning of re-charging generate the same
amount of hydrogen as a battery being charged the same 20 amps, but later in
the charge at 2.5 volts per cell? You should find that the amount generated
during *discharge* is much less than that generated when/if overcharging.

In commercial stationary battery applications, it is quite common to have
*different* ventilation requirements for charging and discharging. Yes,
discharging or floating still requires ventilation and safety precautions,
but *charging* evolves more hydrogen.

daestrom

Oh yes. Charge at C10 and discharge at C120. Different ammounts of gas.

Point being made is that Nick, et al have stated that batteries do not
produce gas during discharge. They are wrong.
 
G

G. R. L. Cowan

Jan 1, 1970
0
W

Windsun

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did that, and almost nothing comes up to support your claims. But, then
most of your claims about anything that I have seen in newsgroups in the
past year or so are not supported by any facts. This just continues the
trend.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Oh yes. Charge at C10 and discharge at C120. Different ammounts of gas.

Point being made is that Nick, et al have stated that batteries do not
produce gas during discharge. They are wrong.

Charge at the same rate as discharge. The amount of hydrogen evolved is
very different.

Interestingly, when first charging a deeply discharged battery, it evolves
almost pure oxygen and very little hydrogen. Only as it nears full charge
does it start to evolve hydrogen. And the amount is greatly depending on
the cell voltage-temperature-current. Excess voltage will evolve a lot more
H2 and O2 than proper charging.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Oh yes. Charge at C10 and discharge at C120. Different ammounts of gas.

Point being made is that Nick, et al have stated that batteries do not
produce gas during discharge. They are wrong.

Hydrogen evolution during discharge is almost entirely side reactions with
plate impurities. As such, quality batteries evolve very little compared to
charging.

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
When you stop looking at the sun your sight will come back (maybe)


Exploding Battery: Batteries generate explosive gases during operation
and when charging. Flames, sparks, burning cigarettes or other ignition
sources must be kept away at all times.

http://www.rpc.com.au/reindex.html?http://www.rpc.com.au/products/efn/efn
extracts/batteries_care.html


The byproduct of discharging or charging batteries is an explosive gas.

http://www.sptnetpower.com/safety.htm



These same explosive vapors are present anytime your battery charges OR
discharges. And all it takes is a little spark to ignite those fumes and
cause an explosion.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/marketplace/autocenter/carguys/000211batter
ies.html




We all know that hydrogen is explosive; let's keep in mind for
a moment that it reacts specifically with the oxygen in the air when it
explodes. One more thing to keep in mind: these batteries also produce
hydrogen when discharged.

http://observers.org/tac.mailing.list/2001/Dec/0013.html
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Hydrogen evolution during discharge is almost entirely side reactions with
plate impurities. As such, quality batteries evolve very little compared to
charging.

daestrom

Depends entirely upon the rate of charge ao discharge.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Depends entirely upon the rate of charge ao discharge.

Hydrogen evolution on charge is a function of temperature, voltage and
current. Proper charging includes limiting the voltage for a given
temperature until reaching the finishing rate. Only when the charging
current is down below the finishing rate should voltage be allowed to rise
above the gassing voltage. This *greatly* reduces the amount of hydrogen
produced. Of course, improper charging can generate huge amounts of gas,
overheat the battery and even boil the electrolyte.

Incidently, it is interesting to note that when first starting the charge of
a deeply discharged lead-acid battery, almost *pure OXYGEN* is given off,
and very little hydrogen.

Hydrogen evolution on *discharge* is very small in comparison. Discharging
as high as the 3 hour rate doesn't produce very much hydrogen. Ventilation
is still required, but not anywhere near the requirements during battery
charging.

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Hydrogen evolution on charge is a function of temperature, voltage and
current. Proper charging includes limiting the voltage for a given
temperature until reaching the finishing rate. Only when the charging
current is down below the finishing rate should voltage be allowed to rise
above the gassing voltage. This *greatly* reduces the amount of hydrogen
produced. Of course, improper charging can generate huge amounts of gas,
overheat the battery and even boil the electrolyte.

Incidently, it is interesting to note that when first starting the charge of
a deeply discharged lead-acid battery, almost *pure OXYGEN* is given off,
and very little hydrogen.

Hydrogen evolution on *discharge* is very small in comparison. Discharging
as high as the 3 hour rate doesn't produce very much hydrogen. Ventilation
is still required, but not anywhere near the requirements during battery
charging.

daestrom

I don't remember saying any different.

It is also interesting to note that oxygen is an accelerant and hydrogen
is explosive in the range of 5 to 95%.

Think about it.
 
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