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Back EMFs

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Mark Taylor, Dec 23, 2004.

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  1. Mark Taylor

    Mark Taylor Guest

    Hi group,

    If I interrupt the current supply to a large coil, what determines the
    level of back emf I can get? I'd imagine it was solely the inductance
    of the coil (bigger the better) and the load resistance the field
    collapses across, but some guy's told me the ESR of the coil is
    absolutely critical to getting maximum voltage and a little bit too
    much or too little will give a pretty lousy spark. He also said large
    inductance isn't everything, either. Is this true? Should all
    ignition-type coils be wound from resistance wire?

    Thanks
     
  2. Andrew Holme

    Andrew Holme Guest

    EMF is the product of inductance and rate of change of current:

    V = L di / dt

    The greater the current - and the faster you interrupt it - the greater the
    back e.m.f. Series resistance will reduce the voltage at the coil
    terminals; think of it as a resistor in series with a perfect voltage
    source. You want the lowest resistance possible. Why would you wind it
    from resistance wire? Is that to limit the pre-
    interruption current?? Why not use a current limtied supply e.g. an
    external series resistor?
     
  3. Hi, one.
    If not limited by the switching speed of the interrupting
    device, shunt impedance across the coil will do the limiting.
    That impedance consists of stray winding capacitance,
    external capacitance, and (for a non-air coil) losses due
    to eddy current flow in the core material.
    I cannot imagine why ESR matters in normal cases. It
    would be ununsual for ESR to determine the interrupted
    current level and the external circuit will dominate once
    the interruption occurs.
    Yes. See above.
    Better that than non-resistance wire. But wire made from
    materials intentionally made resistive? Why bother?
     
  4. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    ESR in this case would, I believe, be the resistance of the coil and
    since I = E/R, the output voltage of the coil would be:

    E
    L d ---
    L dI R
    E = ------ = ----------
    dt dt


    So, the larger R gets, the smaller I would get and the smaller E would
    get.

    I can't imagine why he was told that ESR had to lie in a specific
    range though; ISTM that for the biggest spark the best of all possible
    worlds would be zero coil resistance. But, ESR is a term usually used
    with capacitors, so maybe there's more going on than meets the eye.
     
  5. Mark Taylor

    Mark Taylor Guest

    Thanks. This all helps. I think maybe Larry was onto something when he
    spoke about inter-winding capacitance (I think that's what he meant).
    I've just made up an air core single layer solenoid of 70 turns at
    52mm diameter, close wound and perhaps the proximity of the adjacent
    turns is creating a capacitive loss-path that damps the back EMF.
    Having checked it in Spice, it looks like that might be the answer;
    but I can't believe so much potential voltage can be lost in
    close-spaced turns. 9kV swiftly becomes < 100V!
     
  6. How many picofarads do you have to put across your simulated inductor
    to get the peak voltage to match the real one? What are you using as
    the switch to interrupt the current?
     
  7. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

     
  8. Mark Taylor

    Mark Taylor Guest

    Thanks, John. I can only go by what my buddy Steve told me, so I guess
    that would be 180pF., and as for a switch, I'm just using a crock-clip
    against a battery terminal.
     
  9. Keep in mind the stored energy for capacitors and inductors. If all
    the energy in the inductance gets transferred to the capacitance, the
    energy cannot increase.

    For inductors, energy=I^2*L/2
    For capacitors, energy=V^2*C/2
    where the energy is in joules, the inductance in henries, the
    capacitance in farads, the current in amperes and the voltage in
    volts.

    This energy equivalence allows you to calculate the best case (no
    losses, upper limit) of inductive energy converted to capacitive
    energy.

    Switch arching, winding resistive, capacitive dielectric losses, etc.
    consume some of the energy during the transfer, so you never see the
    full transfer.
     
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