Audio Video and power over cat 5

[Chris W]

Does anyone know of an inexpensive device that will allow me to run both
video and power to my cameras using cat 5 cable? It would also be nice
to have audio on one of the cameras as well.

Are these things really all that complicated? Can't I just wire up the
connectors to a cat 5 cable myself? What would be really nice is a box
with 4 RJ45 jacks on one side and 4 audio and video on the other side
that would also send power down all 4 lines from one power supply. That
would really make for a clean installation.

--
Chris W

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
http://thewishzone.com

 

[Jackcsg]

Chris. Do you currently have any of the cameras you're going to use?
Security Ideas, has everything you're looking for.
Do you need some help in laying out the system?
I'd be glad to help.

jackcsg at juno dot com

 

[Si Ballenger]

Does anyone know of an inexpensive device that will allow me to run both
video and power to my cameras using cat 5 cable? It would also be nice
to have audio on one of the cameras as well.

Are these things really all that complicated? Can't I just wire up the
connectors to a cat 5 cable myself? What would be really nice is a box
with 4 RJ45 jacks on one side and 4 audio and video on the other side
that would also send power down all 4 lines from one power supply. That
would really make for a clean installation.

I run line level video, audio, power and ground on four conductor
cat3 wire, so cat5 should also work. Running the wire adjacent to
ac wires might pick up hum in the audio. Get some wire and just
try it out.

 

[Jackcsg]

I run line level video, audio, power and ground on four conductor
cat3 wire, so cat5 should also work. Running the wire adjacent to
ac wires might pick up hum in the audio. Get some wire and just
try it out.

Line level video (I'll assume you mean analog), audio (Line Level?) Power
and ground on four wires? I'll assume you mean 4 pair? And just how far do
you run this?

I tend to think that many are confused about PoE. It's designed for VERY
short runs. The most 24 awg wire can handle amperage wise is about 1 amp.
Now you can run Ethernet 300 feet. Can anybody tell me how much power, say
12vdc @ 1 amp, will be at the end? Not 12vdc.
Short runs, yes.
Line level audio should be in a shielded cable, or at least by itself.
Here's a good test of what the audio will do. Use an expansion bus wire to
extend your zones to a remote module, in that cable, say a six conductor,
run your power, and data bus loop, and also use the other two pair for your
siren loop. Only, don't use sirens, use a siren driver in the panel, and
some 8 ohm speakers at the end. Enjoy your troubleshooting nightmare. Yummy!

 

[[email protected]]

Not cheap, but a decent product:

http://www.nvt.com/applications/pvd_application_concepts.html
http://www.nvt.com/applications.html
http://www.nvt.com/products.html

You could also look at Nitek, FM Systems, and Foresight.
http://www.nitek.net/
http://www.fmsystems-inc.com/
http://www.foresight-cctv.com/about.htm

 

[Jackcsg]

Like I said....short distances.
I'd rather use a Ethernet extender, which can go up to 5,000 feet, plug in
my network camera at the end, and utilize a more local to the camera power
source.
Add a heater/blower unit to an outside camera, and your toast with PoE.
8 port Ethernet extender is about $800, and each end remote unit is about
$100.
One pair 24 awg wire. Two-way audio, video, PTZ, input, output, 30 fps.
Oh, and you can put 12 cameras at the end of that 5,000 ft two conductor
run.
If it's a CAT5, 48 cameras, on one piece of CAT5, all pumping 30 fps.
All being recorded through a single $23 NIC card.

 

[Si Ballenger]

Line level video (I'll assume you mean analog), audio (Line Level?) Power
and ground on four wires? I'll assume you mean 4 pair? And just how far do
you run this?

My runs are about 60'. I've heard you can run composite video
well over 100' before you have to resort to baluns and twisted
pair wire.

I tend to think that many are confused about PoE. It's designed for VERY
short runs. The most 24 awg wire can handle amperage wise is about 1 amp.
Now you can run Ethernet 300 feet. Can anybody tell me how much power, say
12vdc @ 1 amp, will be at the end? Not 12vdc.

You are starting to mix apples and oranges now. From what I've
read, poe uses four wires of eight in cat5 cable for 10-baseT and
two of the other four for power/ground. I've got an old webcam
computer in the back of the house and have it connected to the
router in the front of the house with cat3 four conductor phone
wire. If you need to get more power down the wire, use 24vdc
instead of 12vdc and put a 12vdc regulator on the end. I've got
the cheap cam below and noticed it just uses four wires. Instead
of cutting the ends off the supplied cable, I just ran cat3 and
put connectors on the ends after the wire was run through small
holes and stuff. The power requirements for this CMOS cam is
small. My CCD cams use around five watts. This is all home hobby
stuff and not intended to be commercial grade.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91851

 

[[email protected]]

Thats why I always power the cameras locallly.
He is asking about analogue, not IP.

 

[DA]

Chris W wrote:

Does anyone know of an inexpensive device that will allow me to run both

video and power to my cameras using cat 5 cable? It would also be nice

to have audio on one of the cameras as well.

Are these things really all that complicated? Can't I just wire up the

connectors to a cat 5 cable myself? What would be really nice is a box

with 4 RJ45 jacks on one side and 4 audio and video on the other side
that would also send power down all 4 lines from one power supply.
That
would really make for a clean installation.

Well, can't really do that easily with neither of the two components,
power and video: CAT5(E) cable is designed for balanced mode transmission
(symmetrical on both conductors) whereas the composite video output of a
camera is a common mode transmission (one of the conductors is grounded).
So, you need a balun (balanced-to-unbalanced) device for the transition
between the two media. Really short distances would be fine just straight
in, but if you'd be talking 100+ feet, you are going to need a balun. OTOH
some cameras have balanced output with which you don't need a balun. These
tend to be higher-end cameras.

On the power side you need some means of compensation for the voltage drop
in the cable. Basically, just over-powering on the power supply end so
that it's at acceptable lever when it shows up at the camera end.

NVT (www.nvt.com) makes nice devices that handle video/power/PTZ control
over UTP. Prepare to pay dearly for the power portion of the solution
though due to that compensation circuitry.

Good luck!

DA




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[Jackcsg]

I see that. I was more in tune to stating the misconceptions of PoE.
Most people in the alarm industry aren't very good at calculating line
load/loss.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I see that. I was more in tune to stating the misconceptions

of PoE. Most people in the alarm industry aren't very good
at calculating line load/loss.

Agreed. There are several online resources with voltage drop
tables, etc., which can help but most alarm techs don't even use
them. Residential alarms rarely require any calculations since
most systems are small and wiring runs are short.

A wise man has often said, "This stuff isn't rocket science."
:^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Jackcsg]

Even with calculators as aids, wire (NEC) size also eludes most.
I agree, residentially, most installs are short runs, and occupy very little
power for consumption, coupled with a small amount of power available to
begin with.
The problem comes when those same principles are applied commercially.
I just visited a Car Dealership in which these residential applications were
applied to a 25 acre lot. Everything, even the cameras, is powered with wall
warts, which under their current load, brown discoloration, and melted
plastic case, is more of a fire hazard, than a functional system. The system
is 4 years old, and completely dead. I can't imagine why InterStar, the
company that installed it, went bankrupt. Go figure....

 

[joe]

Jackcsg wrote:

Most people in the alarm industry aren't very good at calculating line
load/loss.

How could you possibly know what 'most people in the alarm industry" do
or don't do. That is a lame over generalization meant to make yourself
appear better. I figured you were 'better than that'. A better analogy
would have been , most diy's are not good at calculating line loss/load
.. Why you ask? because they don't do this stuff for a living.

 

[joe]

Agreed. There are several online resources with voltage drop
tables, etc., which can help but most alarm techs don't even use
them.

Maybe the ones you worked with. Which means you didn't either because
you were unlicensed and using subs to qualify your business oh so many
years ago when you were scamming unsuspecting customers in that great
population center back east.

Residential alarms rarely require any calculations since

most systems are small and wiring runs are short.

there is alot more to alarms than just those dinky residential system
you sell to your unsuspecting vict er customers

 

[Robert L Bass]

Even with calculators as aids, wire (NEC) size also eludes most.

Many just use "Burglar Alarm Wire" and "Fire Alarm Wire" without
even knowing why they use a particular gauge, let alone what its
limitations may be. The boss says to use this wire and that wire
and that's all they know. Thank the so-called "authorized
dealer" programs for dumbing down the industry. 28 years ago
when I was just learning most installers understood the job. Now
they only need to know how to get two wireless door contacts and
one motion installed as fast as possible so they can get on to
the next vict... er, customer.

... I just visited a Car Dealership in which these residential
applications were applied to a 25 acre lot. Everything, even
the cameras, is powered with wall warts.... I can't imagine
why InterStar, the company that installed it, went bankrupt.
Go figure....

Heh. I see that all the time, even when DIYers are taking over
bad "custom" installed systems. I recently had a customer call
because his "monitored" alarm wasn't working correctly. Turns
out the system wasn't even connected to the phone line. The
alarm company never installed an RJ31X nor even hard-wired it to
the phones. There were several sensors that had not been
connected to the panel either. The smokes were wired using
ordinary 22/4 cable as well.

Although the alarm company never finished the installation they
did send him a bill every month since he bought the new house.
When the customer discovered it wasn't connected to the phone
line he took it over, added some sensors and I helped him locate
a monitoring firm.

The installing dealer has since sent him a notice that he can't
switch monitoring services until the three-year term ends.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Jackcsg]

Jackcsg wrote:



How could you possibly know what 'most people in the alarm industry" do
or don't do. That is a lame over generalization meant to make yourself
appear better. I figured you were 'better than that'. A better analogy
would have been , most diy's are not good at calculating line loss/load
. Why you ask? because they don't do this stuff for a living.

No, I pretty much meant what I said.
Here then "from what I've seen, most people in the alarm industry aren't
very good at calculating line load/loss".
I ought to know, I've been doing this for over three weeks now...
I have a few hundred photos to support what I'm saying though.

 

[Jackcsg]

Many just use "Burglar Alarm Wire" and "Fire Alarm Wire" without
even knowing why they use a particular gauge, let alone what its
limitations may be. The boss says to use this wire and that wire
and that's all they know. Thank the so-called "authorized
dealer" programs for dumbing down the industry. 28 years ago
when I was just learning most installers understood the job. Now
they only need to know how to get two wireless door contacts and
one motion installed as fast as possible so they can get on to
the next vict... er, customer.


Heh. I see that all the time, even when DIYers are taking over
bad "custom" installed systems. I recently had a customer call
because his "monitored" alarm wasn't working correctly. Turns
out the system wasn't even connected to the phone line. The
alarm company never installed an RJ31X nor even hard-wired it to
the phones. There were several sensors that had not been
connected to the panel either. The smokes were wired using
ordinary 22/4 cable as well.

Although the alarm company never finished the installation they
did send him a bill every month since he bought the new house.
When the customer discovered it wasn't connected to the phone
line he took it over, added some sensors and I helped him locate
a monitoring firm.

The installing dealer has since sent him a notice that he can't
switch monitoring services until the three-year term ends.

That's priceless. Sounds like another ex-Westinghouse Security technician
off on his own...

 

[[email protected]]

sounds like a typical installer down here )

 

[joe]

No, I pretty much meant what I said.
Here then "from what I've seen, most people in the alarm industry aren't
very good at calculating line load/loss".
I ought to know, I've been doing this for over three weeks now...

oh well three whole weeks. I didn't know it was that long. What have
you covered, 1 part of 1 whole state?

I have a few hundred photos to support what I'm saying though.

I didn't know you took pictures, well that proves it then a photo proves
that a calculation wasn't done every time.

 

[Jackcsg]

oh well three whole weeks. I didn't know it was that long. What have
you covered, 1 part of 1 whole state?

I haven't been to Washington State, Alaska, or Hawaii. But if you're
offering, I'd prefer to go to Hawaii first.

I didn't know you took pictures, well that proves it then a photo proves
that a calculation wasn't done every time.

Exactly. A picture proves everything. Joe, have I ever told you my little
birdie story?
It's about some birds that stole over $4,000.00 in quarters from a car wash
coin changer.
Sounds pretty far fetched? A picture is worth a thousand words....
If you'd like to see the Facts, I'd be glad to email it to you. I've sent it
to a bunch of guys here in the news group.