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Are CNS electric signals AC or DC?

E

Entertained by my own EIMC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Benj said:
Actually, "information" related to WDB2T-variances and "truth" are two
different quantities, but that is another issue.

Benj
(Who isn't Benjamin)

"Truth" is an oft abused concept that can only most reasonably mean
something like:
'What actually (as opposed to fictionally) Is going (or did go - or will be
going) on';
(hence) "Truth" is - regardless of how much and often this word is abused by
and within "Actention Selection-serving Systems" corrupted by being or
having been in "Specific/Synaptic Hibernation" Imploring/Inducing Type
situations (or ditto predicaments) that normally become stored as "CURSES"
[a perfectly reasonably arrived-at and science-aligned "EPT" acronym that is
synonymous with what Janov previously referred to as, or that covers exactly
the same range (or subset) of experientially incurred neural imprints (or
LTPed reverberatory dynamic neural states) that Janov originally proposed be
called, "Pain"] in "the ASS" - positively ultimately understandable not as
an ultimately general state but as an all-Encompassing Process Thusly
denoted. %-[
 
A

Autymn D. C.

Jan 1, 1970
0
|| Benjamin wrote:

|
| > Relatively-local WDB2T-variances cor-
| > relate to local-divergences from Truth.
| >
| > k. p. collins
|
| Actually, "information" related to WDB2T-
| variances and "truth" are two different
| quantities, but that is another issue.
|
| Benj
| (Who isn't Benjamin)

Nervous systems converge-upon 'mo-
tion' by calculating the anti-WDB2T
Direction.

In so doing, to the degree that they do
so, nervous systems 'move toward'
Truth -- be-cause WDB2T permeates
physical reality in an everywhere-con-
sistent way, so, get-that-straight, and
one simultaneously 'Knows' Truth as
it occurs within physical reality.

You can't even spell Truthe.

http://google.com/groups?q=Autymn+DC-DC-DC
 
P

Phineas T Puddleduck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Autymn D. C. said:


Irony OVERLOAD

--
COOSN-174-07-82116: Official Science Team mascot and alt.astronomy's favourite
poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).

Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Are the electrical currents generated and used by the nervous system
AC or DC? Some sources say DC [like the book "The Body Electric" by
Robert Becker & Gary Selden]; however, the changes in polarity of
those neuroelectric signals would seem to me like they are AC
currents. If an electric current is DC, its polarity does not reverse.

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/...

Thanks,

Radium

Actually, they're digital; but unary, rather than binary.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
Are the electrical currents generated and used by the nervous system
AC or DC? Some sources say DC [like the book "The Body Electric" by
Robert Becker & Gary Selden]; however, the changes in polarity of
those neuroelectric signals would seem to me like they are AC
currents. If an electric current is DC, its polarity does not reverse.

Radium

As Benj pointed out, the currents may
contain both AC and DC.

It is surprising that Becker and Selden
say the currents are DC.

Changing polarity is one way to
distinguish AC from DC but it is not
always useful.

A more common notion in electronics is
that if a voltage varies in some way
with time, it contains one or more AC
components. These components are often
of major interest to investigators, as
in EEG and EKG analyses.

Chuck

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

well, yeah... if something were really honestly dc, it wouldn't be a
'signal' because it wouldn't be allowed to go on and off.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
| [...]

| The nervous system is an evolved system. It has some
| features that are elegant and wonderful. It has other
| features that are gross kludges that have only been
| retained because there is nothing better that is only
| a little bit different.
| [...]

Please offer an example of a "gross kludge" 'in nervous
systems'.

k. p. collins

well, the fact that it's operating inside a bath of salt water. This
is not optimal for electrical signals.
 
P

Puppet_Sock

Jan 1, 1970
0
Please offer an example of a "gross kludge" 'in nervous
systems'.

Here's one that everybody should be familiar with: The blind
spot in the human eye. You can easily demonstrate it to
yourself.


A
B C


Cover one eye. Look at the B in the middle in the previous line.
Slowly move your head closer to the screen, keeping your
vision fixed on the B. But pay attention to the A and the C.
At the correct distance, one of either the A or C will disappear
from your field of vision. If you cover your right eye, the A will
disappear.

This is because in the human eye the bundle of nerves
that carry the information from the retina to the brain has
to pass through the retina. There are no retina receiving
cells at that location. You have a blind spot. Your brain
fills in the picture on either side so you are not aware of
the blind spot in normal conditions. And when you have
both eyes, the brain overlaps the images and adjusts.

In some species, such as the octopus, the nerves from
the retina attach from behind. This means that an
octopus does not have a blind spot in either eye.

There are other things: Consider the reflex of your leg
moving when the doctor taps on your knee with that
little hammer thing. What's that for? It arises from
the existence of helpful reflex action getting confused.
If you touch something hot there is a nerve impulse
that does not have to go all the way to the brain to
produce the muscle movement that moves your limb
away from the pain. But this short path can be
stimulated by other things, and so produce motion
that looks very strange. Thumping on your knee causes
a reflex action to get stimulated. You have uncovered
a kludge in your nervous system.

But the reflex is itself a kludge. Instead of making
the nerves faster, the "processing" of pain was
moved closer to the muscle. It seems pretty likely
that this was an accidental situation that was then
firmed in by later evolutionary selection. In the slang
of computing, a bug that was made a feature.
A situation where signals going to the brain crossed
over to nerves coming from the brain became an
improvement, in some situations, over not having
this cross connection.

This is how evolution proceeds. Something that works
a bit better in the current context gets selected for.
It does not matter if it's following some pattern or not.
Often it is not. It does not have to be elegant, or match
any particular means of categorizing behaviour or
characteristics. It just has to work better right now.
Socks
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here's one that everybody should be familiar with: The blind
spot in the human eye. You can easily demonstrate it to
yourself.


A
B C


Cover one eye. Look at the B in the middle in the previous line.
Slowly move your head closer to the screen, keeping your
vision fixed on the B. But pay attention to the A and the C.
At the correct distance, one of either the A or C will disappear
from your field of vision. If you cover your right eye, the A will
disappear.

This is because in the human eye the bundle of nerves
that carry the information from the retina to the brain has
to pass through the retina. There are no retina receiving
cells at that location. You have a blind spot. Your brain
fills in the picture on either side so you are not aware of
the blind spot in normal conditions. And when you have
both eyes, the brain overlaps the images and adjusts.

In some species, such as the octopus, the nerves from
the retina attach from behind. This means that an
octopus does not have a blind spot in either eye.

There are other things: Consider the reflex of your leg
moving when the doctor taps on your knee with that
little hammer thing. What's that for? It arises from
the existence of helpful reflex action getting confused.
If you touch something hot there is a nerve impulse
that does not have to go all the way to the brain to
produce the muscle movement that moves your limb
away from the pain. But this short path can be
stimulated by other things, and so produce motion
that looks very strange. Thumping on your knee causes
a reflex action to get stimulated. You have uncovered
a kludge in your nervous system.

But the reflex is itself a kludge. Instead of making
the nerves faster, the "processing" of pain was
moved closer to the muscle. It seems pretty likely
that this was an accidental situation that was then
firmed in by later evolutionary selection. In the slang
of computing, a bug that was made a feature.
A situation where signals going to the brain crossed
over to nerves coming from the brain became an
improvement, in some situations, over not having
this cross connection.

This is how evolution proceeds. Something that works
a bit better in the current context gets selected for.
It does not matter if it's following some pattern or not.
Often it is not. It does not have to be elegant, or match
any particular means of categorizing behaviour or
characteristics. It just has to work better right now.
Socks
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| > Hi:
| >
| > Are the electrical currents generated and used by the nervous system
| > AC or DC? Some sources say DC [like the book "The Body Electric" by
| > Robert Becker & Gary Selden]; however, the changes in polarity of
| > those neuroelectric signals would seem to me like they are AC
| > currents. If an electric current is DC, its polarity does not reverse.
| >
| > http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/...
| >
| > Thanks,
| >
| > Radium
|
| Actually, they're digital; but unary, rather than binary.

"Passive cable properties" are =Continuous=.

"Action potentials" derive in passive cable
properties, and, so, are =Continuous= too.

One cannot comprehend nervous system
function without Seeing the =Continuous=
3D-Energydynamics [3D-E].

'digital' is just a non-functional 'presump-
tion' founded in absence-of-understanding.

Such False finitizations [AoK, Ap4] have oc-
curred with respect to every then-state-of-
the-art 'technology' that's ever existed. "Hu-
mors, to 'clockworks', to 'computers', and
many things in-between'.

k. p. collins
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| [...]

| well, yeah... if something were really
| honestly dc, it wouldn't be a 'signal'
| because it wouldn't be allowed to go
| on and off.

Nervous systems "go on" at concep-
tion, and "go off" at death. In-between,
there's only =Continuous= 3D-E.

[In early-development, the 3D-E are,
of course, in the =development= of
what will become 'the' nervous sys-
tem.]

k. p. collins
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| >
| > | > | [...]
| >
| > | The nervous system is an evolved system. It has some
| > | features that are elegant and wonderful. It has other
| > | features that are gross kludges that have only been
| > | retained because there is nothing better that is only
| > | a little bit different.
| > | [...]
| >
| > Please offer an example of a "gross kludge" 'in nervous
| > systems'.
| >
| > k. p. collins
|
| well, the fact that it's operating inside a bath of salt water. This
| is not optimal for electrical signals.

Nervous systems are to "electrical
signals" as plants are to sunlight.

Rather than "electrical signals",
there is 'only' Continuous 3D-E
that literally forms the neural
Topology, and Cognition [thought,
creativity, curiosity, affect, volition,
etc.] 'within' it.

[I'm busy these 'days', and 'cannot'
take-up an extended discussion,
but =all= of what I've written above
stood Proven 'decades' ago, and
I've discussed its fundamentals in
bionet.neuroscience, sufficiently,
over the course of the last 17 'years'.
I've no control over what remains
available of my prior discussions.]

k. p. collins
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| [snip]
| > Please offer an example of a "gross kludge" 'in nervous
| > systems'.
|
| Here's one that everybody should be familiar with: The blind
| spot in the human eye. You can easily demonstrate it to
| yourself.
|
|
| A
| B C
|
|
| Cover one eye. Look at the B in the middle in the previous line.
| Slowly move your head closer to the screen, keeping your
| vision fixed on the B. But pay attention to the A and the C.
| At the correct distance, one of either the A or C will disappear
| from your field of vision. If you cover your right eye, the A will
| disappear.
|
| This is because in the human eye the bundle of nerves
| that carry the information from the retina to the brain has
| to pass through the retina. There are no retina receiving
| cells at that location. You have a blind spot. Your brain
| fills in the picture on either side so you are not aware of
| the blind spot in normal conditions. And when you have
| both eyes, the brain overlaps the images and adjusts.
|
| In some species, such as the octopus, the nerves from
| the retina attach from behind. This means that an
| octopus does not have a blind spot in either eye.

'normal' occular-motor activation includes saccades
and drifts that completely-eliminate the so-called
"blind spot", which results from a Topological-Optim-
ization, not a "kludge".

Contrary to the "a-bit-here-and-a-bit-there" 'pre-
sumption' with respect to Evolutionary dynamics,
Evolutionary dynamics operate on 'the' =whole=
Species 'blue-print' ['the' "genome"] =simultan-
eously= -- be-cause any modification either rend-
ers a "genome" instance either more-capable of
Surviving, or less-capable of Surviving, relative to
the sum of environmental factors, including the
behavioral stuff of other Living stuff.

Evolution ["of course"] occurs flexibly, over extend-
ed-terms, but it's =always= as above -- either-or,
re. Survival of the Individual "genome".

| There are other things: Consider the reflex of your leg
| moving when the doctor taps on your knee with that
| little hammer thing. What's that for? It arises from
| the existence of helpful reflex action getting confused.

The reflex isn't "confused". It's just had an improb-
able stimulus imposed upon it. MDs do such in
order to "explore" nervous-system structural-integ-
rity, which discolses the fact of nervous-system
Integrity, which is =tightly= globally-integrated.

| If you touch something hot there is a nerve impulse
| that does not have to go all the way to the brain to
| produce the muscle movement that moves your limb
| away from the pain. But this short path can be
| stimulated by other things, and so produce motion
| that looks very strange. Thumping on your knee causes
| a reflex action to get stimulated. You have uncovered
| a kludge in your nervous system.

It's =not= a "kludge". It's an Optimization with
respect to the fact that the Problems that
nervous systems routinely encounter are
routinely of infinitely-large scope.

Infinity is Infinity.

Throw a "monkey wrench" into the 'works'
of =any= system, and the 'result' is a con-
sequence of the "monkey wrench" being
=in= the system.

But, "Whoops-a-daisies!", nervous systems
even 'tell' folks that "something unusual"
has been encountered.

Where's the "kludge"?

| But the reflex is itself a kludge. Instead of making
| the nerves faster, the "processing" of pain was
| moved closer to the muscle.

Nope. It's an Optimization [the full extent of
which I've barely touched-on above].

"Faster" nerves would require greater
energy-consumption, which'd require
the host organism to spend more of
its energy just finding-energy, which'd
dumb-it-down, overall, and any organ-
ism not so-dumbed-down will out-com-
pete it with respect to Survival.

| It seems pretty likely
| that this was an accidental situation that was then
| firmed in by later evolutionary selection. In the slang
| of computing, a bug that was made a feature.
| A situation where signals going to the brain crossed
| over to nerves coming from the brain became an
| improvement, in some situations, over not having
| this cross connection.

Nope. You are just unaware of what's
in nervous systems and their functioning.
[Forgive me, Please, but Computerists
[which is one of the 'hats I wear', BTW]
=need= to learn-from nervous systems
instead of trying to dictate what 'nervous
systems must be'.]

| This is how evolution proceeds. Something that works
| a bit better in the current context gets selected for.
| It does not matter if it's following some pattern or not.
| Often it is not. It does not have to be elegant, or match
| any particular means of categorizing behaviour or
| characteristics. It just has to work better right now.
| Socks

Truth is, nervous systems are Spectacularly-
Well-Optimized to perform as =Generalized=
processors.

=Nothing= in-them is in-them without it's
globally-integrated Purpose.

Evolutionary dynamics "See" this global-
Optimization, not 'bits-and-pieces-here-
and-there'.

[There are, "of course", 'flaws' in individual
"genomes" that result from unfortunate
consequences involving toxic substances,
pre- and-postpartum Parental "stress"
and/or radiation, but such do not constitute
nervous system "kludges".]

[I'm busy these 'days', so, if you reply, take
your 'time', because I'll only be coming on-
line 'sporadically' ['days', and, perhaps,
'weeks' intervening.]

k. p. collins
 
J

Jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
| [...]

| The nervous system is an evolved system. It has some
| features that are elegant and wonderful. It has other
| features that are gross kludges that have only been
| retained because there is nothing better that is only
| a little bit different.
| [...]

Please offer an example of a "gross kludge" 'in nervous
systems'.

k. p. collins

well, the fact that it's operating inside a bath of salt water. This
is not optimal for electrical signals.

the surface of the nerve is an insulator, and a voltage is developed
across that barrier...
 
C

Chuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Benjamin said:
| > Hi:
| >
| > Are the electrical currents generated and used by the nervous system
| > AC or DC? Some sources say DC [like the book "The Body Electric" by
| > Robert Becker & Gary Selden]; however, the changes in polarity of
| > those neuroelectric signals would seem to me like they are AC
| > currents. If an electric current is DC, its polarity does not reverse.
| >
| > http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/...
| >
| > Thanks,
| >
| > Radium
|
| Actually, they're digital; but unary, rather than binary.

"Passive cable properties" are =Continuous=.

"Action potentials" derive in passive cable
properties, and, so, are =Continuous= too.

One cannot comprehend nervous system
function without Seeing the =Continuous=
3D-Energydynamics [3D-E].

'digital' is just a non-functional 'presump-
tion' founded in absence-of-understanding.

Such False finitizations [AoK, Ap4] have oc-
curred with respect to every then-state-of-
the-art 'technology' that's ever existed. "Hu-
mors, to 'clockworks', to 'computers', and
many things in-between'.

k. p. collins


Darned strong sentiments, k. p. collins.
I wonder if you have not indicted the
entire fabric of human communication,
semantics, and epistomology.

I also wonder if any of your assertions
are falsifiable, and if not, how you
establish truth values for them.

Chuck
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| Benjamin wrote:
| > | > | > Hi:
| > | >
| > | > Are the electrical currents generated and used by the nervous system
| > | > AC or DC? Some sources say DC [like the book "The Body Electric" by
| > | > Robert Becker & Gary Selden]; however, the changes in polarity of
| > | > those neuroelectric signals would seem to me like they are AC
| > | > currents. If an electric current is DC, its polarity does not
reverse.
| > | >
| > | >
http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/...
| > | >
| > | > Thanks,
| > | >
| > | > Radium
| > |
| > | Actually, they're digital; but unary, rather than binary.
| >
| > "Passive cable properties" are =Continuous=.
| >
| > "Action potentials" derive in passive cable
| > properties, and, so, are =Continuous= too.
| >
| > One cannot comprehend nervous system
| > function without Seeing the =Continuous=
| > 3D-Energydynamics [3D-E].
| >
| > 'digital' is just a non-functional 'presump-
| > tion' founded in absence-of-understanding.
| >
| > Such False finitizations [AoK, Ap4] have oc-
| > curred with respect to every then-state-of-
| > the-art 'technology' that's ever existed. "Hu-
| > mors, to 'clockworks', to 'computers', and
| > many things in-between'.
| >
| > k. p. collins
| >
| >
|
|
| Darned strong sentiments, k. p. collins.

Only as "strong" as is warranted be-cause
folks, absent-understanding, Kill and
otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings,
'simply' because their nervous systems,
fully-capable of understanding, have not
had access to understanding, resulting
in a 'funny' condition in which nervous
systems direct their host organisms to
'move away from' understanding.

The 'Difficult' circumstance in which I
find myself is that I understand how and
why it's so.

So I 'have to' do what Needs to be done
to give folks the understanding.

| I wonder if you have not indicted the
| entire fabric of human communication,
| semantics, and epistomology.

How could it be otherwise?

But my emphasis is on the fact that what's
entailed is an =absence-of-understanding=
with respect to how and why nervous sys-
tems process information, =not= that folks
are 'bad', or that they are 'incapable' of un-
derstanding.

The thing to do is to give folks understanding
so that they can do 'the rest' without Killing,
and otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings.

Meanwhile, it is 'Difficult'.

| I also wonder if any of your assertions
| are falsifiable, and if not, how you
| establish truth values for them.
|
| Chuck

I've only addressed fairly-simple fundamentals
that were all Proven 'decades' ago in then-exist-
ing Experimental results.

To me, it's like having to 'defend' the fact that
1 + 1 = 2.

Others will go further than I have.

In so doing, folks'll refine the work I've done.

But the fundamentals of the work I've done
will stand as incontrovertible Truth for all
'time' [or at least until evolutionary dynamics
significantly alter the fundamental neural
Topology of nervous systems.]

I achieved Closure 'decades' ago.

It's been 'Difficult' in the interim be-cause,
absent-understanding with respect to how
and why nervous systems process informa-
tion, nervous systems tend, Strongly, to 'move
away from' doing the work inherent in coming
to understand.

So, in the interim, I've 'got to' do the work in-
herent for folks.

I call it "Heavy Lifting".

Cheers,

k. p. collins
 
A

Autymn D. C.

Jan 1, 1970
0
'normal' occular-motor activation includes saccades
and drifts that completely-eliminate the so-called
"blind spot", which results from a Topological-Optim-
ization, not a "kludge".

Saccades explain pigmental activation, not the blind spot. Blind
spots are bad upon staring, cheapper or not; the nerve should still be
behind the retina.
Contrary to the "a-bit-here-and-a-bit-there" 'pre-
sumption' with respect to Evolutionary dynamics,
Evolutionary dynamics operate on 'the' =whole=
Species 'blue-print' ['the' "genome"] =simultan-
eously= -- be-cause any modification either rend-
ers a "genome" instance either more-capable of
Surviving, or less-capable of Surviving, relative to
the sum of environmental factors, including the
behavioral stuff of other Living stuff.

The species doesn't think of everything. It will take as many kludges
as it can get away with: illnesses come first; then come immunities.
The reflex isn't "confused". It's just had an improb-
able stimulus imposed upon it. MDs do such in
order to "explore" nervous-system structural-integ-
rity, which discolses the fact of nervous-system
Integrity, which is =tightly= globally-integrated.

improbabil and wrong
It's =not= a "kludge". It's an Optimization with
respect to the fact that the Problems that
nervous systems routinely encounter are
routinely of infinitely-large scope.

Nothing is infinite. The kneejerk, charlie horse, sneeze-wince, sun-
sneeze, nosehairpluck-tear, etc. are /not/ optimal routines; they are
all weaknesses out of cheap and blind growgroping and quickbreeding.
They are likely the traces of yet manier weaknesses that were killed
off earlier; as soon as big, smart, noonstalking birds learn how to
use pollen and well-steaded jabs against us, millions of the younger
population will be dead. :D
Throw a "monkey wrench" into the 'works'
of =any= system, and the 'result' is a con-
sequence of the "monkey wrench" being
=in= the system.

Except when the wrench doesn't fit.
"Faster" nerves would require greater
energy-consumption, which'd require
the host organism to spend more of
its energy just finding-energy, which'd
dumb-it-down, overall, and any organ-
ism not so-dumbed-down will out-com-
pete it with respect to Survival.

So why is there a reflex rather than no reaction? Reflexes require
greatter enerjy consumption.
| It seems pretty likely
| that this was an accidental situation that was then
| firmed in by later evolutionary selection. In the slang
| of computing, a bug that was made a feature.
| A situation where signals going to the brain crossed
| over to nerves coming from the brain became an
| improvement, in some situations, over not having
| this cross connection.

Nope. You are just unaware of what's
in nervous systems and their functioning.
[Forgive me, Please, but Computerists
[which is one of the 'hats I wear', BTW]
=need= to learn-from nervous systems
instead of trying to dictate what 'nervous
systems must be'.]

You tort, not fiat.
| This is how evolution proceeds. Something that works
| a bit better in the current context gets selected for.
| It does not matter if it's following some pattern or not.
| Often it is not. It does not have to be elegant, or match
| any particular means of categorizing behaviour or
| characteristics. It just has to work better right now.

Truth is, nervous systems are Spectacularly-
Well-Optimized to perform as =Generalized=
processors.

=Nothing= in-them is in-them without it's
globally-integrated Purpose.
its
There is no propos, only adhocopos. They don't foreknow anything.
[There are, "of course", 'flaws' in individual
"genomes" that result from unfortunate
consequences involving toxic substances,
pre- and-postpartum Parental "stress"
and/or radiation, but such do not constitute
nervous system "kludges".]

English-muttish Latin-slauhtering spelling-speakking is one whole big
fat kludge.

-Aut
 
A

Autymn D. C.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Only as "strong" as is warranted be-cause
folks, absent-understanding, Kill and
otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings,
'simply' because their nervous systems,
fully-capable of understanding, have not
had access to understanding, resulting
in a 'funny' condition in which nervous
systems direct their host organisms to
'move away from' understanding.

or with understanding
The thing to do is to give folks understanding
so that they can do 'the rest' without Killing,
and otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings.

Many millions should die. They are utter scum and trash; they should
feed their betterlings.
But the fundamentals of the work I've done
will stand as incontrovertible Truth for all
'time' [or at least until evolutionary dynamics
significantly alter the fundamental neural
Topology of nervous systems.]

You can't even spell Truthe.
So, in the interim, I've 'got to' do the work in-
herent for folks.

You'v "got" nothing, illiterate.
 
B

Benj

Jan 1, 1970
0
Benjamin said:
I've only addressed fairly-simple fundamentals
that were all Proven 'decades' ago in then-exist-
ing Experimental results.

To me, it's like having to 'defend' the fact that
1 + 1 = 2.

Oh lookee here! We've got a nice pile of loonies all "gatoring" in one
spot! I might as well jump in too!
Rather than "electrical signals",
there is 'only' Continuous 3D-E
that literally forms the neural
Topology, and Cognition [thought,
creativity, curiosity, affect, volition,
etc.] 'within' it.

Which is of course is not 1+1=2, but actually wrong. "mind" is a
separate thing from continuous 3D-E. With separate function and basis
Mind and 3D-E nervous operations means that neural topology and
cognition are separate functions and systems. I did note that
"electrical signals" is in quotes, but who knows what in hell you
meant by that.
But the fundamentals of the work I've done
will stand as incontrovertible Truth for all
'time' [or at least until evolutionary dynamics
significantly alter the fundamental neural
Topology of nervous systems.]

I achieved Closure 'decades' ago.

Which now means your "mind" is closed to any dynamics other than your
supposed "evolutionary" ones. Hence, you have once again thrown out a
large piece of the system! A partial understanding cannot give
development of entire understanding. Perhaps you'll end up killing
something.
It's been 'Difficult' in the interim be-cause,
absent-understanding with respect to how
and why nervous systems process informa-
tion, nervous systems tend, Strongly, to 'move
away from' doing the work inherent in coming
to understand.

So, in the interim, I've 'got to' do the work in-
herent for folks.

Glad you are keeping so busy saving us all from ourselves. We DO need
it!
I call it "Heavy Lifting".

Hey, it ain't Heavy, it's your Brother!

And Autymn calls it "Truthe" but then, she's too busy studying her
navel to know how to spell!

Thnks for the opportunity.

Benj
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| > 'normal' occular-motor activation includes saccades
| > and drifts that completely-eliminate the so-called
| > "blind spot", which results from a Topological-Optim-
| > ization, not a "kludge".
|
| Saccades explain pigmental activation,
| not the blind spot.

Saccades and drifts are eye-movements
that continuously-alter the relative-posi-
tioning of the fovea with respect to the
stimulation reaching the fovea.

If these eye motions are eliminated, via,
say, applications of curarae to the occulor-
motor muscles, 'blindness' happens [the
visual image 'disappears'] be-cause the
visual apparatus is 'engineered' to key-up-
on =change= [and be-cause globally-inte-
grated TD E/I-minimization does the 'same',
eliminating 'all' irrelevant neural activation.]

| Blind spots are bad upon staring, cheap-
| per or not; the nerve should still be
| behind the retina.

Forgive me, Please, if I agree with the 'ev-
olutionary-engineer', and the results of its
billions of 'years' of work, instead of acqui-
escing to what you say 'must' be.

| > Contrary to the "a-bit-here-and-a-bit-there" 'pre-
| > sumption' with respect to Evolutionary dynamics,
| > Evolutionary dynamics operate on 'the' =whole=
| > Species 'blue-print' ['the' "genome"] =simultan-
| > eously= -- be-cause any modification either rend-
| > ers a "genome" instance either more-capable of
| > Surviving, or less-capable of Surviving, relative to
| > the sum of environmental factors, including the
| > behavioral stuff of other Living stuff.
|
| The species doesn't think of everything.

"The species" doesn't "think" of =any-
thing=.

Evolutionary dynamics are driven by the
one-way flow of energy, from order to
disorder, that is what's =described=
by 2nd Thermo [the Second Law of
Thermodynamics; "WDB2T".]

=All= of Life evolves in the 'same' way,
driven by WDB2T, in ways that literally
Direct Life to 'move' in 'the' anti-WDB2T-
Direction.

The result of such is that, overall, Life
'moves toward' increased-energy-avail-
ability, which 'sustains' Life.

For a vivid example of all of the above,
study plants' heliotrophism -- their grow-
ing in Directions that maximize their ac-
quisition of available sunlight. The more
they do such, the more energy they ac-
quire, and the better they Survive, even
in the midst of disease agents, which are,
themselves, doing the same anti-WDB2T
stuff, but in accord with species-'specific'
"plans".

Bacteria, for instance, activate their flag-
ella differentially with respect to nutrient-
concentration [energy] gradients, which
results in bacteria's ability to 'move toward'
increased-energy, which is 'moving' in
the anti-WDB2T-Direction.

=All= of Life, same-old, same-old.

| It will take as many kludges as it can get
| away with: illnesses come first; then come
| immunities.

When a 'kludge' is instantiated, it's =always=
instantiated with respect to a locally-occur-
ring 'movement' in the anti-WDB2T-Direc-
tion.

These dynamics 'see' only local WDB2T.

They're not, 'instantaneously', 'oracles' with
respect to all Possible WDB2T.

But, as Life proceeds, it experiences more-
widely 'within' the realm of all Possible
WDB2T, and the result of such is evolution
of "species" that're ever-more capable of
'moving toward' WDB2T in 'all' Possible
environmental circumstances.

Humans, for instance, can survive in
Arctic climates be-cause their nervous
systems are magnificantly-generalized
processors that can "learn" and "re-
member" strategies for staying-warm,
despite the cold of the external environ-
ment into which they've 'moved', which
'movement' is, itself, in an anti-WDB2T-
DIrection with respect to "maurauding
attackers", etc.

| > The reflex isn't "confused". It's just had an improb-
| > able stimulus imposed upon it. MDs do such in
| > order to "explore" nervous-system structural-integ-
| > rity, which discolses the fact of nervous-system
| > Integrity, which is =tightly= globally-integrated.
|
| improbabil and wrong

:-]

Not only Probable, but Verified as
being True.

You know -- it's called "Science".

| > It's =not= a "kludge". It's an Optimization with
| > respect to the fact that the Problems that
| > nervous systems routinely encounter are
| > routinely of infinitely-large scope.
|
| Nothing is infinite.

Take two 'points', as close as you like
as long as they're not the same 'point',
and there's Infinity between them.

| The kneejerk, charlie horse, sneeze-wince,
| sun-sneeze, nosehairpluck-tear, etc. are
| /not/ optimal routines; they are all weak-
| nesses out of cheap and blind growgrop-
| ing and quickbreeding. They are likely the
| traces of yet manier weaknesses that were
| killed off earlier; as soon as big, smart,
| noonstalking birds learn how to use pollen
| and well-steaded jabs against us, millions
| of the younger population will be dead. :D

Hmmmm... are you getting into 'science'-
fiction, here?

Evolutionary dynamics do ["of course"]
"evolve" over extended-terms, but it's
not as you assert with respect to "knee-
jerks", etc.

Consider an automobile. It'd be impractical
to use a "bolt" that're nore-costly to manu-
facture than the rest of the car.

In Life, the sort of same-trade-offs occur
routinely during the course of evolution-
ary dynamics, with WDB2T acting as the
"calibration"-mechanism, the result being
=overall= optimization with respect to org-
anisms' abilities to 'move' in 'the' anti-
WDB2T-Direction.

"Global-Integration."

| > Throw a "monkey wrench" into the 'works'
| > of =any= system, and the 'result' is a con-
| > sequence of the "monkey wrench" being
| > =in= the system.
|
| Except when the wrench doesn't fit.

Yeah, "except when the 'wrench' doesn't
fit :-]

Then the 'wrench' 'just' squashes the system,
like when one steps on an ant.

Ants 'move' in 'the' anti-WDB2T-Direc-
tion with respect to such by reproducing-
massively, living portions of their Lives
where 'wrenches' can't be 'thrown', etc.

Basicly, species literally grow-into anti-
WDB2T-Direction-"space" that's min-
imally-'occupied' by other species,
which includes, BTW, =all= behavior-
al dynamics.

| > "Faster" nerves would require greater
| > energy-consumption, which'd require
| > the host organism to spend more of
| > its energy just finding-energy, which'd
| > dumb-it-down, overall, and any organ-
| > ism not so-dumbed-down will out-com-
| > pete it with respect to Survival.
|
| So why is there a reflex rather than no
| reaction? Reflexes require
| greatter enerjy consumption.

Not having the 'reflex' would subject
a human to being not able to stand-up
as well as another human who had the
'reflex'. ["Standing-up is a Problem that's
infinitely-large in scope, BTW, be-cause
of the way that 'gravitational' force varies
with respect to 'movement' on various
terrain, which is compounded, also in-
finitely, by the ability to carry stuff that's
made-Possible by standing-up [on two
feet], and stuff like the fact that projectiles
and predatory attacks can come from
=any= Direction while one is standing-
up, 'moving' in the anti-WDB2T-Direc-
tion, etc.

The better-standing-up organism out-
Survives the less-able-to-stand-up
organism.

Hence the patellar reflex.

| > | It seems pretty likely
| > | that this was an accidental situation that was then
| > | firmed in by later evolutionary selection. In the slang
| > | of computing, a bug that was made a feature.
| > | A situation where signals going to the brain crossed
| > | over to nerves coming from the brain became an
| > | improvement, in some situations, over not having
| > | this cross connection.
| >
| > Nope. You are just unaware of what's
| > in nervous systems and their functioning.
| > [Forgive me, Please, but Computerists
| > [which is one of the 'hats I wear', BTW]
| > =need= to learn-from nervous systems
| > instead of trying to dictate what 'nervous
| > systems must be'.]
|
| You tort, not fiat.

No, I just 'move toward' Truth.

'move' in the anti-WDB2T-Direction because
understanding how and why nervous systems
process information enables one to do so
relatively-efficiently.

The understanding is available to all.

| > | This is how evolution proceeds. Something that works
| > | a bit better in the current context gets selected for.
| > | It does not matter if it's following some pattern or not.
| > | Often it is not. It does not have to be elegant, or match
| > | any particular means of categorizing behaviour or
| > | characteristics. It just has to work better right now.
| >
| > Truth is, nervous systems are Spectacularly-
| > Well-Optimized to perform as =Generalized=
| > processors.
| >
| > =Nothing= in-them is in-them without it's
| > globally-integrated Purpose.
| its
| There is no propos, only adhocopos.
| They don't foreknow anything.

Well, they =do=.

Nervous systems innately 'Know' the
difference between anti-WDB2T-Dir-
ections and WDB2T-Directions, just
like plants do.

Where things get 'Hard' derives in
the 'way' that folks generate virtual
'directednesses' 'within' their routine
interactive dynamics -- because nerv-
ous systems do innately 'Know' the
difference between anti-WDB2T-Dir-
ections and WDB2T-Directions, just
like plants do.

So folks instantiate =local= WDB2T
gradients via glitzy-'advertising, lies,
cheating, etc, in order to coerce the
'directions' in which other folks'll 'move'.

Overall, such doesn't work, however,
be-cause WDB2T happens, overall,
regardless of what folks 'contrive' to
do to 'seek profits' with respect to oth-
er folks' anti-WDB2T-Directednesses.

It's also innate 'within' nervous systems
to detect, and 'move away from' such
[AoK, Ap7.]

| > [There are, "of course", 'flaws' in individual
| > "genomes" that result from unfortunate
| > consequences involving toxic substances,
| > pre- and-postpartum Parental "stress"
| > and/or radiation, but such do not constitute
| > nervous system "kludges".]
|
| English-muttish Latin-slauhtering spelling-
| speakking is one whole big fat kludge.
|
| -Aut

Nope.

It's 'just' what I wrote in the last stuff I
wrote before the last stuff you wrote,
and, well, in the last stuff you wrote.

Peace.

k. p. collins
 
B

Benjamin

Jan 1, 1970
0
| > Only as "strong" as is warranted be-cause
| > folks, absent-understanding, Kill and
| > otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings,
| > 'simply' because their nervous systems,
| > fully-capable of understanding, have not
| > had access to understanding, resulting
| > in a 'funny' condition in which nervous
| > systems direct their host organisms to
| > 'move away from' understanding.
|
| or with understanding

Sadly, that's not, yet, been generally the
case with respect to the understanding to
which I referred in what you've quoted from
my prior post.

| > The thing to do is to give folks understanding
| > so that they can do 'the rest' without Killing,
| > and otherwise Ravage one anothers' Beings.
|
| Many millions should die. They are utter scum
| and trash; they should feed their betterlings.

That's just it. Evolutionary dynamics've done
their work so well, in embuing 'normal' human
nervous systems with =generalized= inform-
ation-processing capabilities that there're no
'betterlings'.

There remain only the consequences inherent
in differential-experience, not being understood.

| > But the fundamentals of the work I've done
| > will stand as incontrovertible Truth for all
| > 'time' [or at least until evolutionary dynamics
| > significantly alter the fundamental neural
| > Topology of nervous systems.]
|
| You can't even spell Truthe.

I can't 'deny' that it's in-Truth that I'm reck-
less with stuff like 'spilling'.

It's mostly a result of my not being reck-
less with respect to Truth.

| > So, in the interim, I've 'got to' do the work in-
| > herent for folks.
|
| You'v "got" nothing, illiterate.

This, 'two', is True, much to my own
Hardship -- as soon as I've "got" any-
thing, I start working to find ways to give
it to others.

Forgive my 'illiterate'-ness, please,
while I do the work inherent in giving-
you, and others, Precious understand-
ing.

k. p. collins
 
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