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APC UPS Batteries Very Swollen And My Solution

  • Thread starter Jean-Marie Vaneskahian
  • Start date
J

Jean-Marie Vaneskahian

Jan 1, 1970
0
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time.

I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid
batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11.

Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay
the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the
battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel
frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get
the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS.

After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in
fact a VERY common problem!

My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove
the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run
some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS
through a hold I drilled on the case.

I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series
external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some
sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this
in the future (Though I am not sure how)

I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V
17Ah lead acid batteries!!!!
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jean-Marie Vaneskahian said:
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time.

I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid
batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11.

Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay
the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the
battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel
frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get
the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS.

After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in
fact a VERY common problem!

My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove
the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run
some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS
through a hold I drilled on the case.

I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series
external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some
sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this
in the future (Though I am not sure how)

I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V
17Ah lead acid batteries!!!!

Several companies make standalone thermostat chips that can be used to sound
an alarm and/or remove power from the UPS. I've used the Dallas DS1821
before, it uses a 1-Wire interface for programming but can be set to active
high or active low output with settable turnon and turnoff points. Once
programmed it can be set to standalone thermostat mode and only needs a
source of power and a transistor to switch a relay or other device.
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jean-Marie Vaneskahian said:
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time.

I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid
batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11.

Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay
the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the
battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel
frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get
the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS.

After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in
fact a VERY common problem!

My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove
the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run
some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS
through a hold I drilled on the case.

I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series
external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some
sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this
in the future (Though I am not sure how)

I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V
17Ah lead acid batteries!!!!


Lead acid batteries do not last forever. They need to be replaced from time
to time. You should find that time in APCs doc. So your batteries may have
died of aging. Overloading is another possibility. I wonder why a *smart*
UPS does not report this kind of failures. As it seems you can't trust the
APCs electronics anymore, some external electronics may do well. I'd check
for overvoltage and high temperature. Checking pressure (how?) may be a good
thing to improve safety but when it alarms it's too late to save the
batteries.

petrus bitbyter
 
Jean-Marie Vaneskahian said:
I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series
external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some
sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this
in the future (Though I am not sure how)
I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V
17Ah lead acid batteries!!!!

I have had the same problem. My theory is that it is charging slightly
over the permitted 2.3V per cell. Maybe 2.35V or so. Could this cause
the trouble?
 
I have had the same problem. My theory is that it is charging slightly
over the permitted 2.3V per cell. Maybe 2.35V or so. Could this cause
the trouble?

I've repair many of these over the years, and in all cases, the
problem is found to be a sorted cell or two amongst the 24
available (4 x 6 cell batteries). Once a couple short, the charging
voltage per cell increases and overheats the entire pack.

A heat sensor would be the best bet, but it's not going to
prevent the problem, only let you know that you HAVE a
problem :)

Tedd, VE3TJD
 
J

Jean-Marie Vaneskahian

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wow I can use my Dallas Semi DS18S20 that I use on a midon design
"Temp08"

http://www.midondesign.com/TEMP08/TEMP08.html

I can have the PC monitor the temp. But I just can't do a shutdown of
the UPS. It powers the entire wiring closet, including the PC that
would monitor the battery temperatures!
 
J

jakdedert

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've repair many of these over the years, and in all cases, the
problem is found to be a sorted cell or two amongst the 24
available (4 x 6 cell batteries). Once a couple short, the charging
voltage per cell increases and overheats the entire pack.

A heat sensor would be the best bet, but it's not going to
prevent the problem, only let you know that you HAVE a
problem :)
The OP might have oriented the UPS in a non-standard position as well.
Lead/acids are meant to be charged upright, as I unfortunately found out
when I left my old camcorder connected to the a/v interface with the battery
inserted (I thought it a great way to have the camcorder always
available--fully charged--to catch those 'kodak moments.'). I nearly had to
destroy the camcorder to get the swollen battery out again in order to
replace it.

It was only then that I noticed the warning printed on the battery which
stated the above. I wonder at the stupidity of the manufacturer providing
an a/v interface which charged the battery....

jak
 
J

Joe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes, I have run into many "smart" :) UPS cooking and constantly floating
batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts.
Check it with a DVM

-Joe
 
Joe said:
Yes, I have run into many "smart" :) UPS cooking and constantly floating
batteries as high as 14.5-15 volts.
Check it with a DVM

I did check it, it was nowhere near as high as 14.5 or 15 volts. It was
only slightly above the stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts. I
seem to remember it was in the neighbourhood of 13.95 or 14 volts.
 
J

Joe

Jan 1, 1970
0
seem to remember it was in the neighborhood of 13.95 or 14 volts.

For "float" and maximum battery life that's to high !
The stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts is red lining it, boils them
dry in under a year (short life)
I set mine at 13.2, Im on my 4th year and my cell has plenty reserve.

-Joe
 
B

budgie

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have had the same problem. My theory is that it is charging slightly
over the permitted 2.3V per cell. Maybe 2.35V or so. Could this cause
the trouble?

Yep. UPS manufacturers face a tradeoff between battery lifetime and recovery
time after discharge. The latter is readily measurable and often documented in
the product description as a selling parameter. Battery lifetime is neither
readily assessed by the purchaser nor documented by the manufacturer. So they
give fast recovery at the expense of battery life. Charge currents are often
unreasonably high.

Float voltages are another problem, BUT some UPS designs don't even "float" the
battery bank - they feed it from a tapered current source rather than a
current-limited constant voltage source. I have had occasion to reconfigure
the charge circuit in some battery-backed test equipment to achieve a real
float.

Even where a proper float system is used, voltages always seem to high for
longevity. I personally use 13v5 - 13v6 as the float for SLA's.
 
W

WEBPA

Jan 1, 1970
0
From other posts it looks like APC UPSes eat the lead acid batteries
that are in them over a short period of time.

I own an old APC SU2200NET SmartUPS. It has 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid
batteries conneted in series which called an RBC11.

Well my UPS stopped working one day and when I opened the battery bay
the 4 lead acid batteries had wollen to take up all the space in the
battery bay. I had to drill all the rivets and take apart the steel
frame that made up the bay that the lead acid batteries were in to get
the 4 swollen lead acid batteries our of the UPS.

After some reseach on the Usenet newsgroups I found that this was in
fact a VERY common problem!

My solution was to take apart the top portion of the UPS and remove
the Black and Red 18 Gauge wire that goes the the batteries and run
some new 18 Gauge wire out the side of the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS
through a hold I drilled on the case.

I now have my 4 - 12V 17Ah lead acid batteries connected in series
external to the UPS where I can see them and maybe even connect some
sensors to them (Temperatrue, pressure switch, etc...) to avoid this
in the future (Though I am not sure how)

I hope the APC SU2200NET SmartUPS does not kill my next set of 4 - 12V
17Ah lead acid batteries!!!!
The charger is most likely set higher than it ought to be. 13.5 vdc is
correct, IIRC.

But you may have a MUCH bigger problem. You stated that your out-board
batteries were "...connected in series." A series connection of 4 twelve volt
batteries makes a 48 volt battery. Your charger cannot charge this, and your
inverter will be destroyed if it ever tries to assume a load. Or...you mean
the 4 twelve volt batteries are connected in parallel. Much different.
webpa
 
J

Jack Edin

Jan 1, 1970
0
These use 24Vdc battery configurations.

4 12V batteries.

Not in series....
Not in parallel...

They're in series/parallel!

Two batteries are wired in series then joined, in parallel with the
other two (also wired in series) to present a 24Volt battery pack to the
inverter/charger.

These are indeed smart units, with a microprocessor onboard, etc.

What I think has happened is that the batteries needed to be replaced,
as the originals failed. Done.

The problem is the smart charger doesn't "know" it has new, improved
batteries.

Last time it was pushing harder than ever to try to force a charge into
the years old batteries.

Now it has new, fresh, tender lead plates to play with but doesn't know
it. It still "thinks" old stale bad batteries.

The solution?

Not sure, and I too have had to extract my new now-bloated batteries
from my similar units...

Reading other's posts I saw recently what I think may just be the
solution. They were speaking of a SU600.

The solution is to use their software, and connect the SmartUPS to your
PC's serial port to do so... As it really oughta be already...

Then preform a "Runtime re-calibration"... The exact term escapes me for
the moment... I think thats it.

Doing so causes it to switch to inverter and then time the depletion of
the batteries. Then when it recharges them it may learn their capacity, etc.

I hope this'll get it done and before I go spend another $100 on new
cells for either of mine (again) I hope to hear back from someone about
this.

My expectation is that the charger won't try as hard once it learns it
doesn't have to. Is this proper thinking?

I do know this: APC's out of warranty partners CBMI are good folks. And
for something like $50 they'll re-cal your unit.

The bad news is the expense of shipping these all over the US. They have
2 service centers now, one in NJ and one in Las Vegas... I think.

Hope this helps.

Jack
:)

P.S.

The re-cal is done via the serial port. They connect and send it new
parameters. The protocol is proprietary and will likely never be known
on the street. Non-disclosure agreements with APC prevent it, etc.

And nobody's hacked it.
 
B

budgie

Jan 1, 1970
0
These use 24Vdc battery configurations.

4 12V batteries.

Not in series....
Not in parallel...

They're in series/parallel!

Two batteries are wired in series then joined, in parallel with the
other two (also wired in series) to present a 24Volt battery pack to the
inverter/charger.

These are indeed smart units, with a microprocessor onboard, etc.

That doesn't make them smart. It does make them capable of smart things if the
coders know what they are doing.
What I think has happened is that the batteries needed to be replaced,
as the originals failed. Done.

The problem is the smart charger doesn't "know" it has new, improved
batteries.

Last time it was pushing harder than ever to try to force a charge into
the years old batteries.

Now it has new, fresh, tender lead plates to play with but doesn't know
it. It still "thinks" old stale bad batteries.

The solution?

Not sure, and I too have had to extract my new now-bloated batteries
from my similar units...

Reading other's posts I saw recently what I think may just be the
solution. They were speaking of a SU600.

The solution is to use their software, and connect the SmartUPS to your
PC's serial port to do so... As it really oughta be already...

Then preform a "Runtime re-calibration"... The exact term escapes me for
the moment... I think thats it.

Doing so causes it to switch to inverter and then time the depletion of
the batteries. Then when it recharges them it may learn their capacity, etc.

I hope this'll get it done and before I go spend another $100 on new
cells for either of mine (again) I hope to hear back from someone about
this.

My expectation is that the charger won't try as hard once it learns it
doesn't have to. Is this proper thinking?

If the charger is half-decent, it would use a current-limited constant voltage
charge regime which would eventually float the cells at a suitable voltage.
THAT would automatically treat new cells, or healthy cells, properly without the
need for any "calibration".

In any event, calibration should relate to discharge capability (and hence
run-time prediction) but should NOT affect charging.
 
J

Jean-Marie Vaneskahian

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack and Webpa, you are both wrong.

The packs are connected in pairs just like you stated Webpa, but when
you take the unit apart you see that one pair is conected to the other
only by one yellow 18 Gague wire. This makes the RED and BLACK 18
Gague wires that the UPS sees as follows:

Black Wire From UPS -> Black Teminal on Battery 1
Red Terminal On Battery 1 -> Black Teminal on Battery 2
Red Teminal on Battery 2 -> Black Teminal on Battery 3
Red Teminal on Battery 3 -> Black Teminal on Battery 4
Red Teminal on Battery 4 -> Red Wire From UPS

This is HOW THE BATTERIES WERE CONNECTED in the SmartUPS before I took
it apart even though (Battery 1 + Battery 2) are physically together
and (Battery 3 + Battery 4) are physically together they are in fact
not connected in parallel in any way, it just appears that way.

The Batteries are in fact connected in Series yeilding 48 Volts DC.
This is how the SmartUPS 22000Net had them connected when I took it
apart. I reconnected my new batteries again in series just like the
ones in the UPS that I took apart and it works again (Though the
batteries may not last based on the UPS overcharing the batteries, but
that's a different story).

Why do you say that they are not connected in series?
 
G

Goran Larsson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack Edin said:
The re-cal is done via the serial port. They connect and send it new
parameters. The protocol is proprietary and will likely never be known
on the street. Non-disclosure agreements with APC prevent it, etc.

When I bough an UPS serveral years ago I specifically asked the
importer about protocol specifications. Some, like APC, just refused
and said the protocol was Top Secret. They did not get the order.

One UPS was delivered with free software supporting my platform (not
just only MS Windows) and the manufacturer had nothing against
disclosing the protocol. They did get the order.

Reading about the problems everybody seems to have with the batteries
in the APC units I am glad I bought a UPS with intelligent battery
management that works.
 
M

Mr. APC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joe said:
For "float" and maximum battery life that's to high !
The stated max. continuous rating of 13.8 volts is red lining it, boils them
dry in under a year (short life)
I set mine at 13.2, Im on my 4th year and my cell has plenty reserve.

-Joe


The general rule of thumb is to change your UPS batteries every 3
years - if the batteries keep swelling then the charging unit on your
UPS is shot.

You can always check out www.2buyups.com for great prices on batteries
or APC UPS's....
 
Mr. APC said:
The general rule of thumb is to change your UPS batteries every 3
years - if the batteries keep swelling then the charging unit on your
UPS is shot.
You can always check out www.2buyups.com for great prices on batteries
or APC UPS's....

I won't be buying APC, but do you know a source of schematics, so I can
test and modify or repair my unit? I'll look up the model number when
necessary.
 
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