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Anti blackout device ?

Discussion in 'Misc Electronics' started by Andre, Sep 21, 2003.

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  1. Andre

    Andre Guest

    Hi group .

    It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
    the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
    an emergency .

    How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
    would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
    at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

    Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
    2020" applications ?

    -A
     
  2. Garrett Mace

    Garrett Mace Guest


    One word: expense. Aside from practicality issues (which are, actually,
    related to expense issues also).
     
  3. CWatters

    CWatters Guest

    One of the main problems of superconductors (as I understand it) is that
    they stop being superconductors if the current density gets too high. eg
    they might be alright for low current applications but not really high
    power.

    If I've got that wrong please let me know.

    Colin
     
  4. An anti-blackout device is one of my LED creations. When a blackout
    occurs, just turn it on and POOF! The blackout is gone! ;-)

    They said that even the running reserve generators couldn't begin to
    generate power fast enough to help in the recent blackout. It takes
    some time to turn up the steam to the generators.

    --
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    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  5. Andre

    Andre Guest

    Yeah, and the trend is for lower Jc's at higher Tc's . So those
    brilliant new HTS ceramic materials are hopeless for this application
    ..

    What I am talking about is the old style LTS materials, like
    niobium/titanium .

    -A
     
  6. [snip]
    They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
    because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
    generator up to full output.

    It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as
    stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

    [snip]

    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  7. We had a M-G set back in the '80s for our mainframe. It was a GE, and
    sat outside in a lean-to shed against the bldg. It was running at
    208V, at about 80 to 90 amps for each of the 3 phases later after we
    upgraded and added more disks and mainframe eqpt. The motor was
    coupled to the gen with a coupler made from two pieces of steel much
    like a universal joint, but instead of bearings, it had a dozen or
    more rings of steel, each about the size of a CD, except the hole was
    much bigger. One day it started sounding different, so we looked
    inside. The steel rings were being thrown out! They had flexed so
    many times over the years that they became fatigued and were breaking
    up. And at 3600 RPM, they weren't staying put, they were flying out!
    So we had to bring down the mainframe one weekend and get the 'field
    techs' who were now just grease monekeys to unbolt the half-ton motor
    and separate the two and replace the coupler. The hour meter had over
    88 thousand hours on it before it froze up and quit working - that's
    over ten years.

    But it was never satisfactory, since at 80 to 90 amps per phase, the
    flywheel wasn't good for many revs before it slowed down and power
    dropped - maybe for a half second power outage. Oh yeah, one day it
    quit. We took a look in the shed, and we found that the fuse box, the
    big one with the ON-OFF switch, had fried. The contacts that clamped
    the big fuses on each end had overheated and as usual, got more
    oxidized as they heated up, and then fried. So we had to replace the
    fuse box.

    Another time, we had a power failure and when the power came back on,
    the M-G started spinning up, and the power only in the computer room
    went off again. So we investigated and found that one of the two big
    transformers, only the one feeding the computer room, wasn't humming
    outside. Uh-oh. Something major was wrong. We thought at first it
    might be a burned out transformer. In any case, it was big-time high
    voltage, so the high voltage electricians were called in. They found
    that the fuse, not on the 208V secondary, but on the 4KV primary had
    blown. This was a 15 amp high voltage fuse, immersed in oil. It
    looked like two strands of solder, maybe 3 or 4 inches long, between
    some tin strips. We were down for most of the day while the
    electrician searched around the county for a supplier that stocked
    such a beast. They got a higher current replacement, maybe 20 amps.
    Apparently the motor-generator was drawing a whole lotta current
    during initial spin-up. Well, what didja expect? It might've been a
    25 or 30 HP motor, I forget. The flywheel was made out of heavy
    steel, and it doesn't atart instantly either!

    So we decided that it was time to upgrade our power supply, and we
    disconnected the M-G and put a 80 kW UPS made by Exide in the computer
    room. It worked great for another half dozen years until we
    demolished the building and moved into our new bldg with a new 150 kW
    Exide UPS. We've been sold on the big UPSes ever since, we would
    never go back to an M-G set. Outside, we have a huge 300 kW
    Caterpillar diesel generator to back up commercial power to the UPS.
    5 or so seconds after the power fails, it's revved up and purring,
    putting out power. Purring? It's so loud that standing next to it,
    even shouting, it's hard to hear a person next to you!

    Nowadays they have those super high speed flywheel energy storage
    systems that they bury in a pit in the ground. Also there are micro
    turbine power generators. From our experience, I doubt that your
    flywheel system would store enough energy to run things for several
    minutes. Maybe several seconds, tho.


    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  8. One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I
    believe it was. They pump some water into it at night when there's
    excess power, and during the peak demands, let the water out thru the
    pumps to generate peak power. Well, assuming what you say about
    hydroelectric power being quicker, one would think that they would
    have a good, fast source of reserve power. But it didn't seem to
    prevent the big mess from happening.


    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  9. As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial)
    opinions, just his version of the 'facts'.

    As for my own opinion, I think if the 'islands' were less dependent on
    each other, one island would not be able to drag the whole system down,
    as happened in this latest fiasco. Sort of like the one mountain
    climber, with the rope line connecting them all, pulling the whole bunch
    into the chasm.



    --
    ----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
    PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
    Incorrect uses: (i) the apostrophe must not be used with a plural
    where there is no possessive sense, as in ~tea's are served here~;
    (ii) there is no such word as ~her's, our's, their's, your's~.

    Confusions: it's = it is or it has (not 'belonging to it'); correct
    uses are ~it's here~ (= it is here); ~it's gone~ (= it has gone);
    but ~the dog wagged its tail~ (no apostrophe).
    ----------------(For the Apostrophe challenged)----------------
    From a fully deputized officer of the Apostrophe Police!

    <<Spammers use Weapons of Mass Distraction!>>

    I bought some batteries, but they weren't included,
    so I had to buy them again.
    -- Steven Wright

    FOR SALE: Nice parachute: never opened - used once.

    (Problem) Evidence of leak on right main landing gear
    (Solution) Evidence removed

    F
    o
    d
    d
    e
    r

    f
    o
    r

    s
    t
    u
    p
    i
    d
    "
    n
    o
    t

    e
    n
    o
    u
    g
    h

    i
    n
    c
    l
    d
    u
    d
    e
    d

    t
    e
    x
    t
    "
    e
    r
    r
    o
    r

    m
    s
    g
    ..
     
  10. Er, change potential to kinetic, above. ;-)

    --
    ----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
    PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
    Incorrect uses: (i) the apostrophe must not be used with a plural
    where there is no possessive sense, as in ~tea's are served here~;
    (ii) there is no such word as ~her's, our's, their's, your's~.

    Confusions: it's = it is or it has (not 'belonging to it'); correct
    uses are ~it's here~ (= it is here); ~it's gone~ (= it has gone);
    but ~the dog wagged its tail~ (no apostrophe).
    ----------------(For the Apostrophe challenged)----------------
    From a fully deputized officer of the Apostrophe Police!

    <<Spammers use Weapons of Mass Distraction!>>

    I bought some batteries, but they weren't included,
    so I had to buy them again.
    -- Steven Wright

    FOR SALE: Nice parachute: never opened - used once.

    (Problem) Evidence of leak on right main landing gear
    (Solution) Evidence removed

    F
    o
    d
    d
    e
    r

    f
    o
    r

    s
    t
    u
    p
    i
    d
    "
    n
    o
    t

    e
    n
    o
    u
    g
    h

    i
    n
    c
    l
    d
    u
    d
    e
    d

    t
    e
    x
    t
    "
    e
    r
    r
    o
    r

    m
    s
    g
    ..
     
  11. I saw this morning that one of the countries in Europe had a huge
    blackout. It was in Italy, and the powerlines coming from France
    failed. http://www.msnbc.com/news/972943.asp?cp1=1

    Recently there was also a blackout in England. Har-har. Whoever it
    was that was bragging that "in Europe, we don't have massive power
    blackouts" can now eat crow. Should've kept his mouth shut!

    I can't speak for others, but I treat every "fact" from w-tom as just
    an opinion until I have verified it for myself. I suggest you do the
    same, not for just w_tom but for everyone.

    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  12. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:59:39 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun"

    [snip]
    But it was a socialist blackout, and that's good for the people, just
    ask Sloman ;-)

    ...Jim Thompson
     
  13. Ken

    Ken Guest

    Last week we have one big blackout covering half Sweden and
    half Denmark. 3 big powerlines was down for service and
    at least 3 nuclear power plants also down for service in Sweden.
    Then one nuclear power plant had some minor problem and stopped,
    and a couple of minutes later a big switch failed in a storm
    and two other nuclear power plants got disconnected from the grid.
    That was to much for the grid and it break down.
     

  14. Yeah, that was who it was. "We don't have blackouts in Europe."
    Right. He'll have to eat crow now! Heh-heh!

    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
  15. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

  16. Yeah, they mentioned that one in the article, URL above. With all the
    media attention to blackouts since the 'Big One' in the U.S., it's
    going to be hard for those countries and states to avoid the media
    attention, every one of them will now be under the eye of everyone. I
    kind of like that because it levels the field a bit. Those of us who
    have recently been under threat of blackouts, such as California in
    2000 and 2001, are now gloating. It's called schadenfreude in German.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/05/10.html

    --
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@,@@[email protected]@[email protected],@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@
    ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
    http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
    My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
    goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
    Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
    Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
    that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
    http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
    Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
    changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
    @@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@@
     
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