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An electro-political rant

I don't really know where to start.

I think I shall start with this - Since big business bought our
government, it seems like it is open season on the American consumer.
I mean that 100% and invite anyone to refute it.

These people are not stupid either. Take the example of the Protron 30
or 32" LCD. You can't get a power supply for it. The name Protron
appears nowhere on the power supply. It's made by yHI and has a
completely an independent model number.

Now, if I were in charge of yHI I would make a bunch of extras and
just stow them away. Unless the contract specifically prohibits me
from doing so I would do it. Then just wait several months. Those
power supplies that they jewed you down to $40 each on, people are
willing to pay $150 now because they got this $800 TV that doesn't
work. (no offense intended to Jews, that is a figure of speech)

Why wouldn't yHI make some spares and just sell them later ? I can
think of only one reason. They agreed not to.

Does this cross the line into conspiracy ?

How long will it be before nobody can repair anything ?

JURB
 
D

Dani

Jan 1, 1970
0
Your'e right! It's getting to be a bad business to be in! I dropped
Prima, & all it's brands, & LG...mostly because, they
just won't answer the phone! E-Mail, fax, or leave a message, they
might be a month getting back to you...that is,
if they ever do! Support is almost non-existant! Phillips wants you to
buy boards for $ 1,100, for plazma TV's, just on a guess! If I get ten
Phillips Plazma TV's in from a Hotel, that need this board, I need $
11,000, in parts...all on a guess,
to fix these units! One I had in lasted one time, then it wouldn't
come on again....talk about reliability! I dropped them also! If you
have this kind of money to spend on TV parts....your'e in the wrong
business! Norcent LCD, parts are in Los
Angeles...I'm in esstern Newfoundland! You can't get any further away!
Acer LCD's have no support here, call eastern
Canada, they will sell you boards for way too much, but will not help
a fellow Tech in a different Province! So, I can get them to fix it
for me, for say $ 400 - $ 600, & put $ 100 on it...not including
freight, & tax, then give it to the customer for almost the price of
the piece of junk new!! Landfill, will be one mile high in a few
years! This "junk" should not be allowed to be sold in our Province,
unless it has some sort of service support! The people who you get on
the phone at some of these electronics manufacturers can hardly speak
english, & only know customer tech support, like "unplug it, & plug it
back in"!! Unreal! Glad I do other things, because I'd never eat in
this business! It's sad that the average consumer would
rather buy a "junk" name, & hope it lasts, then throw their hard
earned money away, rather than get their "good quality"
unit fixed! People throw away $ 600 - $ 4,000 on these units, & when
they break, it may never get fixed! That's sad! Dani.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't really know where to start.

I think I shall start with this - Since big business bought our
government, it seems like it is open season on the American consumer.
I mean that 100% and invite anyone to refute it.

These people are not stupid either. Take the example of the Protron 30
or 32" LCD. You can't get a power supply for it. The name Protron
appears nowhere on the power supply. It's made by yHI and has a
completely an independent model number.

So why do you buy cheap 'off-brand' shit and then whine ?

Graham
 
Hang on there EY, I did not buy the piece of shit.

I am an independent service technician with about 31 years experience
who is in this group sharing my thoughts about the unavailability of
parts for something that has come across my bench.

Something that cost more than some of my cars when new. I can get an
alternator or starter. Why can't I get a chip for a power supply in a
$2,000 TV. That is the point.

And by the way MUTHAFUKER, I NEVER EVER WHINE. EVER.

And when the customer comes to me, like so many who bought expensive
Sony XBRs and similarly CAN'T GET PARTS for a $2,000 TV I will tell
them flat out : "I did not design it, I did not build it, I did not
sell it and I certainly didn't fucking buy it".

You take care of the whining, I don't know how. I drive a twenty year
old car, I know not what an auto part store looks like almost. I
remember taking a BEER in with me when the boneyards just couldn't get
us the right part. I drive a car that old because it can be fixed. And
MY TV is even older than that.

Damn, now that I think of it you can't even smoke a cigarette in an
autoparts store anymore.

That is the closest to whining you will ever her from me. Hell, we
used to smoke pot in the autoparts store !

Shame you missed it.

JURB
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't really know where to start.

I think I shall start with this - Since big business bought our
government, it seems like it is open season on the American consumer.
I mean that 100% and invite anyone to refute it.

These people are not stupid either. Take the example of the Protron 30
or 32" LCD. You can't get a power supply for it. The name Protron
appears nowhere on the power supply. It's made by yHI and has a
completely an independent model number.

Now, if I were in charge of yHI I would make a bunch of extras and
just stow them away. Unless the contract specifically prohibits me
from doing so I would do it. Then just wait several months. Those
power supplies that they jewed you down to $40 each on, people are
willing to pay $150 now because they got this $800 TV that doesn't
work. (no offense intended to Jews, that is a figure of speech)

Why wouldn't yHI make some spares and just sell them later ? I can
think of only one reason. They agreed not to.

Does this cross the line into conspiracy ?

How long will it be before nobody can repair anything ?

JURB

I don't think it crosses the line into conspiracy - I think it is just the
way it is now. Our government in the UK struggles to know even what industry
is any more, let alone control it - except by keeping it cowed under heavy
tax and legislation. As far as spares go, such is the way it has been for
years now here, so if it's only just starting to filter into your nation,
you have indeed had it lucky. There was the time - here at least - when
spares had to be kept for all products for a certain number of years. I've
no idea if this is still the case, and if it is, how the manufacturers /
importers get around it. Oh for the days when you could phone a
manufacturer, and get someone in service, who knew the product, and better
yet, sounded older than 18, and understood as much about electronics and
service, as you did yourself, or a stores person who knew what they were
talking about, and understood about spares.

But what really hacks me off in all of this, is the way that spares, when
available, are prohibitively priced. We keep getting told all manner of
hysterical eco-nonsense about pollution and global warming and whatever new
fad that they can come up with this week, and are also told that we've got
to become much less of a 'throw-away' society, and become a lot more aware
of recycling, and the damage done by dumping stuff in landfill.

Fair enough on some of that, but if it's the government-sponsored case that
we need to do this, why are they not addressing the problem of spares
availability, and pricing ? Quite 'reasonable' home cinema systems can, for
example, be had from the local supermarket, for a very sensible price. And
I'm not talking 'no-names' here. Often well known brand names, although what
you are getting is not, of course, actually manufactured by them. Now what
happens when its laser fails just out of warranty ? Well, first off, it's
probably not even available as a spare part. If it is, the cost of it is
nearly as much, if not more, than the player cost in the first place. Result
? An otherwise perfectly good player goes at worst to landfill, and at best,
to be recycled, which uses yet more energy.

It seems to me that if these items can be built cheap enough to sell at that
price in the first place, then the component cost of the laser must only be
a few pence / cents. So, if governments really want to make a difference,
then this kit should be forced to have a 5 year lifetime, by making
manufacturers supply spare parts for that period of time, and by making them
sell them out at cost plus handling, plus a sensible storage cost. Profit on
spares should be secondary, only if the final cost allows for it.

There. That's *my* electro-political rant .... !! d;~}

Arfa
 
B

b

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't think it crosses the line into conspiracy - I think it is just the
way it is now. Our government in the UK struggles to know even what industry
is any more, let alone control it - except by keeping it cowed under heavy
tax and legislation. As far as spares go, such is the way it has been for
years now here, so if it's only just starting to filter into your nation,
you have indeed had it lucky. There was the time - here at least - when
spares had to be kept for all products for a certain number of years. I've
no idea if this is still the case, and if it is, how the manufacturers /
importers get around it. Oh for the days when you could phone a
manufacturer, and get someone in service, who knew the product, and better
yet, sounded older than 18, and understood as much about electronics and
service, as you did yourself, or a stores person who knew what they were
talking about, and understood about spares.

But what really hacks me off in all of this, is the way that spares, when
available, are prohibitively priced. We keep getting told all manner of
hysterical eco-nonsense about pollution and global warming and whatever new
fad that they can come up with this week, and are also told that we've got
to become much less of a 'throw-away' society, and become a lot more aware
of recycling, and the damage done by dumping stuff in landfill.

Fair enough on some of that, but if it's the government-sponsored case that
we need to do this, why are they not addressing the problem of spares
availability, and pricing ? Quite 'reasonable' home cinema systems can, for
example, be had from the local supermarket, for a very sensible price. And
I'm not talking 'no-names' here. Often well known brand names, although what
you are getting is not, of course, actually manufactured by them. Now what
happens when its laser fails just out of warranty ? Well, first off, it's
probably not even available as a spare part. If it is, the cost of it is
nearly as much, if not more, than the player cost in the first place. Result
? An otherwise perfectly good player goes at worst to landfill, and at best,
to be recycled, which uses yet more energy.

It seems to me that if these items can be built cheap enough to sell at that
price in the first place, then the component cost of the laser must only be
a few pence / cents. So, if governments really want to make a difference,
then this kit should be forced to have a 5 year lifetime, by making
manufacturers supply spare parts for that period of time, and by making them
sell them out at cost plus handling, plus a sensible storage cost. Profit on
spares should be secondary, only if the final cost allows for it.

There. That's *my* electro-political rant .... !! d;~}

Arfa

I agree with what Arfa says. We urgently need a system of spares and
suppport to keep usable stuff from the landfill. I would even go
further and propose that with the annual multi-million pound budget
for implanting extensive recycling schemes, including the cost of
sorting, transporting, storing waste electronic materials and the
energy use all that entails, we could subsidise every repair shop in
the country and SAVE money and do far more for the environment!

And don't get me started on new TVs and their power consumption -
you'd have to go back to the early 70s colour sets to find one with
such a ridiculous power consumption. So you have a double whammy -
people chucking out working CRT sets which used less than 90w, into
the landfill AND replacing them with more-contaminating plasma and
LCDs using many hundreds more watts. And here's everyone going on
about F$%&ing light bulbs??!! The only explanation I can find for
this farcical situation is a) public ignorance and b) the businesses
in whose interests it is to keep things that way.

It's a sad part of living in a world where big business and
deregulated multinationals can do what they want, and are seemingly
untouchable, whilst the ordinary citizen is forced to pay for the
costs of this environmental folly and suffer endless recyling
campaigns, not to mention having often little choice but to throw
equipment away. It's a perverse form of socialism for the rich IMO.
Still, as long as people are stupid enough to keep BUYING instead of
thinking about the consequences, or just for a second questioning this
state of affairs, there'll be more of the same.

(drags soapbox away ;-))
-B.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't really know where to start.

I think I shall start with this - Since big business bought our
government, it seems like it is open season on the American consumer.
I mean that 100% and invite anyone to refute it.

These people are not stupid either. Take the example of the Protron 30
or 32" LCD. You can't get a power supply for it. The name Protron
appears nowhere on the power supply. It's made by yHI and has a
completely an independent model number.

Now, if I were in charge of yHI I would make a bunch of extras and
just stow them away. Unless the contract specifically prohibits me
from doing so I would do it. Then just wait several months. Those
power supplies that they jewed you down to $40 each on, people are
willing to pay $150 now because they got this $800 TV that doesn't
work. (no offense intended to Jews, that is a figure of speech)

Why wouldn't yHI make some spares and just sell them later ? I can
think of only one reason. They agreed not to.

Does this cross the line into conspiracy ?

How long will it be before nobody can repair anything ?

A lot of off brand LCD/Plasma etc is basically like buying a disposable
camera.
 
G

Gary Tait

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote in @w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
Why wouldn't yHI make some spares and just sell them later ? I can
think of only one reason. They agreed not to.

That would be it. YHI is a contract manucaturer for those subassemblies and
only make what they are contracted to.

Now, if those parts were "off the shelf" stock parts that Protron elected
to use in their sets, that would be a differenct story.
 
So why do you buy cheap 'off-brand' shit and then whine ?

Graham

Not so sure "cheap off-brand shit" applies in this case as the
amalgamation of the industry in general has the same supplier making
assemblies for all the brands whether 'off' or otherwise.

Custom parts are made-to-order, and paid upon acceptance (which is
distinct from 'delivery' - a very important issue). Which means that
the supplier will be loath to make any extras, nor even as many as may
have been ordered initially as there is no guarantee that they will be
paid until that unit actually goes into a production item - that is
"accepted". Extras are either sent back to the supplier (at the
supplier's cost) or dumped, as no-one wants to either pay for or store
them... which requires tracking, storing and handling.

Put simply: Most "small electronics" (about anything made for the
consumer at any level from flash memory cards through computers
through plasma TVs) are commodities these days. That is, purchased
based on price and feature only. A pork-belly is a pork-belly is a
pork-belly. And if one looks at the Big Box retailers and the warranty
statements that come with the sale, it will say "IN CASE OF DEFECT, DO
NOT RETURN TO THE POINT OF SALE".... and then give elaborate
instruction for returning the item to the Manufacturer (or
distributor). And there, it will be replaced with no attempt at repair
other than the most basic stuff... often not even then.

At this level, there is no need for support, schematics, spares or any
other infrastucture of that nature. If that Plasma TV that one
purchase at say.... US$2500 cost US$600 to make and transport, I would
be shocked. So, consider the cost of a warehouse, techs and support
staff to do warranty work. Assume one (1) tech cost US$50,000 to keep
employed, the space for him/her costs $10,000/year to lease, $10,000
year to maintain (heat, light, phone, taxes, insurance), and then
maybe a receptionist, accounts receivable & payable, shipping &
receiving, equipment.... so even a single modest warranty service
station (that actually does service) will cost something on the order
of $350,000 - $500,000 per year to maintain. That comes to 1000
defective very high-end television sets in cost + shipping and
receiving them. And that is before it has repaired its first warranty
call.

So, why not put it all on the distributor where the shipping &
handling infrastructure already exists, chalk it up to the cost of
business and move on. Oh, and perhaps spend a little on the front-end
in QC to reduce the call-backs anyway.

And then, if a Tech is worth $25 (~$50,000/year) an hour (not what the
time is charged at, but what the tech gets paid), repairing that $39
DVD player becomes a futile gesture, so those items will get trashed
fixable or not.

It is the way of the world. Now that robots can crank out this crap
faster than the rest of the world can buy it, the race for the bottom
is in full swing. Consumer Goods repair shops are dinosaurs, servicing
those few functioning dinosaurs that have sentimental value to their
owners, not much else.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
 
S

sparky

Jan 1, 1970
0
A lot of off brand LCD/Plasma etc is basically like buying a disposable
camera.


Please advise us as to which brands you believe are NOT off-brands
with unavailable parts. I can't really think of any which are
affordable by the average consumer, only government offices.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not so sure "cheap off-brand shit" applies in this case as the
amalgamation of the industry in general has the same supplier making
assemblies for all the brands whether 'off' or otherwise.

Custom parts are made-to-order, and paid upon acceptance (which is
distinct from 'delivery' - a very important issue). Which means that
the supplier will be loath to make any extras, nor even as many as may
have been ordered initially as there is no guarantee that they will be
paid until that unit actually goes into a production item - that is
"accepted". Extras are either sent back to the supplier (at the
supplier's cost) or dumped, as no-one wants to either pay for or store
them... which requires tracking, storing and handling.

Put simply: Most "small electronics" (about anything made for the
consumer at any level from flash memory cards through computers
through plasma TVs) are commodities these days. That is, purchased
based on price and feature only. A pork-belly is a pork-belly is a
pork-belly. And if one looks at the Big Box retailers and the warranty
statements that come with the sale, it will say "IN CASE OF DEFECT, DO
NOT RETURN TO THE POINT OF SALE".... and then give elaborate
instruction for returning the item to the Manufacturer (or
distributor). And there, it will be replaced with no attempt at repair
other than the most basic stuff... often not even then.

At this level, there is no need for support, schematics, spares or any
other infrastucture of that nature. If that Plasma TV that one
purchase at say.... US$2500 cost US$600 to make and transport, I would
be shocked. So, consider the cost of a warehouse, techs and support
staff to do warranty work. Assume one (1) tech cost US$50,000 to keep
employed, the space for him/her costs $10,000/year to lease, $10,000
year to maintain (heat, light, phone, taxes, insurance), and then
maybe a receptionist, accounts receivable & payable, shipping &
receiving, equipment.... so even a single modest warranty service
station (that actually does service) will cost something on the order
of $350,000 - $500,000 per year to maintain. That comes to 1000
defective very high-end television sets in cost + shipping and
receiving them. And that is before it has repaired its first warranty
call.

So, why not put it all on the distributor where the shipping &
handling infrastructure already exists, chalk it up to the cost of
business and move on. Oh, and perhaps spend a little on the front-end
in QC to reduce the call-backs anyway.

And then, if a Tech is worth $25 (~$50,000/year) an hour (not what the
time is charged at, but what the tech gets paid), repairing that $39
DVD player becomes a futile gesture, so those items will get trashed
fixable or not.

It is the way of the world. Now that robots can crank out this crap
faster than the rest of the world can buy it, the race for the bottom
is in full swing. Consumer Goods repair shops are dinosaurs, servicing
those few functioning dinosaurs that have sentimental value to their
owners, not much else.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Whilst all of what you say is true, it does not address the out-of-warranty
situation, nor the utter waste of scrapping this stuff into landfill or
recycling it, with all of the energy budget implications of those actions,
plus building and shipping replacement units for the consumers to buy. The
point to this whole discussion is that it is no good governments bleating
about landfill and recycling, if all they are going to do is attack the
symptoms, not the cause. The DVD player should actually not be $39 in the
first place. It should be $69, which would still a perfectly acceptable
price, but would do away with all of this cut-throat competition between
manufacturers, that leads to the nonsense situation of a perfectly otherwise
functional piece of equipment, being written off for the sake of a 5c
component that isn't available. From my experience of consumer service, I
think that most people would be quite happy to spend out $30 getting
something repaired that they paid $70 for originally, rather than having to
go out and spend another $70 just to get back to what they had when it was
working.

If the situation is to improve, this entire scenario of pricing and spares
provision needs to be seriously looked at by governments and manufacturers
together, and if necessary, legislated for. After all, the governments don't
seem to have any problem placing bans on stuff like leaded solder, despite
the dubious science that caused them to arrive at solder being a 'hazardous'
material, so why should legislating to prevent premature scrapping of
otherwise servicable equipment, be a problem for them ?

Arfa
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hang on there EY, I did not buy the piece of shit.

I am an independent service technician with about 31 years experience
who is in this group sharing my thoughts about the unavailability of
parts for something that has come across my bench.

Something that cost more than some of my cars when new. I can get an
alternator or starter. Why can't I get a chip for a power supply in a
$2,000 TV. That is the point.

And by the way MUTHAFUKER, I NEVER EVER WHINE. EVER.

And when the customer comes to me, like so many who bought expensive
Sony XBRs and similarly CAN'T GET PARTS for a $2,000 TV I will tell
them flat out : "I did not design it, I did not build it, I did not
sell it and I certainly didn't fucking buy it".

You take care of the whining, I don't know how. I drive a twenty year
old car, I know not what an auto part store looks like almost. I
remember taking a BEER in with me when the boneyards just couldn't get
us the right part. I drive a car that old because it can be fixed. And
MY TV is even older than that.

Damn, now that I think of it you can't even smoke a cigarette in an
autoparts store anymore.

That is the closest to whining you will ever her from me. Hell, we
used to smoke pot in the autoparts store !

Shame you missed it.

JURB

Years ago, I was a repairman for Sony on summer college vacations.
They stocked parts for like everything they ever made, going back to
the first transistor radios. Rows and rows of bins. Sigh. A few months
ago, I couldn't even find anybody to do warranty repair work on a RCA
DVD recorder that was dead out of the box, ended up taking it back for
refund. Terrific machine, if it had worked.
 
B

Beloved Leader

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't really know where to start.

I think I shall start with this -

http://groups.google.com.sg/group/misc.consumers.house/msg/67ebe91a0a4aa922

http://tinyurl.com/2js8cy

http://search.washtimes.com/business/20070109-121637-4917r.htm

--------------------
Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could
years
ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process
of
moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
.....
 
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