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Aluminum Wiring Question

J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
About 4 years ago I had a subpanel put in my house to accommodate some new
circuits. They ran #2 aluminum from the panel to the subpanel.
The electrician was careless and the stiff wires torqued the larger
knockouts out at the cable clamp, so there were large gaps. I got tired
of looking at it, and decided to fix it. I pulled the wires out, removed
all the knockouts, reinstalled the cable clamp with an adapter to fit the
full hole, cleaned the aluminum wires, put anti-oxidant on, and reinstalled
the wires. All went well, though working with #2 in a crowded panel was not
much fun.

But... although the aluminum wires were still bright and shiny, there was
no sign of antioxidant on them. The stuff I put on was purple; but I don't
know if it is all purple (a visual check to be sure it was done properly?)

So, my question; if there was no sign of anti-oxidant on 4 year old wires
does that mean the electrician didn't bother to put any on, or does the fact
that they were still shiny mean they are okay? I am concerned about his
connections at the subpanel; if it was simple I would just redo them there
also to be sure, but it would require ripping the wall open and I would
prefer to avoid that. Thanks.

The wires are only about 6' long; why on earth couldn't he have used
copper?!?!
 
S

SQLit

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
About 4 years ago I had a subpanel put in my house to accommodate some new
circuits. They ran #2 aluminum from the panel to the subpanel.
The electrician was careless and the stiff wires torqued the larger
knockouts out at the cable clamp, so there were large gaps. I got tired
of looking at it, and decided to fix it. I pulled the wires out, removed
all the knockouts, reinstalled the cable clamp with an adapter to fit the
full hole, cleaned the aluminum wires, put anti-oxidant on, and reinstalled
the wires. All went well, though working with #2 in a crowded panel was not
much fun.

But... although the aluminum wires were still bright and shiny, there was
no sign of antioxidant on them. The stuff I put on was purple; but I don't
know if it is all purple (a visual check to be sure it was done properly?)

So, my question; if there was no sign of anti-oxidant on 4 year old wires
does that mean the electrician didn't bother to put any on, or does the fact
that they were still shiny mean they are okay? I am concerned about his
connections at the subpanel; if it was simple I would just redo them there
also to be sure, but it would require ripping the wall open and I would
prefer to avoid that. Thanks.

The wires are only about 6' long; why on earth couldn't he have used
copper?!?!

Almost anything that will retard the air from contact with AL wire will
work. I have used axle grease in a pinch. My home was wired in AL, did not
know that until I moved in. I took a megger and tested everything. Been
fine for the 8 years I have been here. I checked most of the switches and
recpts and they are the correct ones for AL. None of them have anti oxidant
on them.

I would recommend that you check the AL connections once a year for a while.
I check my service panel once a year and have not had one problem.
As someone else recommended check the panel for AL/CU rating. Most are there
are a few that are not.
 
J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
Am I reading this right? The subpanel is inside a wall? That isn't
supposed to be. Panels are always supposed to be accessible. Are the
panels rated for aluminum wire? Some boxes are copper only.
Well, the subpanel is recessed, but it has an accessable cover. The problem
is that without ripping the wall open there is no access to the cable
clamps, and the #2 is too stiff to move without loosening the cable clamps.

Now... the subpanel is upside down, so that the breakers point down when on;
but that's a whole different story.
 
B

Ben Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
SQLit said:
I took a megger and tested everything.

I assume you are referring to a megohmmeter? If so, how did it tell you
anything about the condition of the aluminum connections?

Ben Miller
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ben Miller said:
I assume you are referring to a megohmmeter? If so, how did it tell you
anything about the condition of the aluminum connections?

Ben Miller
--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
http://home.att.net/~benmiller
...

Damn good question. Also, the proper way to make an Al connection is to
apply the antioxidant paste to the cable end, then work it into the aluminum
with an emery cloth. This will remove the extremely hard, nonconductive and
invisible oxide layer that forms almost immediately upon contact with air.
It's a bit messy doing it this way, but will remove the oxide while
preventing subsequent contact with air.
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dean Hoffman said:
Am I reading this right? The subpanel is inside a wall? That isn't
supposed to be. Panels are always supposed to be accessible...>
Dean

Says who?
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
And while cleaning and limiting oxidation are a part of the story, they are
definitely not the base reason, and the use of emery to clean aluminum is as
banned a practice as cleaning aluminum using steel wool.
Care to cite a reference?
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dean Hoffman said:
Good question. That is one of those things I always knew but didn't
attribute to a source. I came up with these from the 2002 U.S. national
code book:

240.24(B) says each occupant shall have ready access to the overcurrent
devices for the conductors supplying that occupancy. There are exceptions.

314.29 says boxes and conduit bodies shall be installed so that the
wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any
part of the building.

To quote "Jim" from the old "Taxi" TV show "Am I right"?

Dean

What that means is the cover must be accessible and removable for all boxes,
conduit bodies etc. The panel can be flush-mounted in a finished wall
because the cover will be removable thus rendering access to the wiring
inside. Panel manufactures sell covers for their panels designed
specifically for flush-mount installations - such as the Square-D QOC40UF.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Damn good question. Also, the proper way to make an Al connection is to
apply the antioxidant paste to the cable end, then work it into the aluminum
with an emery cloth. This will remove the extremely hard, nonconductive and
invisible oxide layer that forms almost immediately upon contact with air.
It's a bit messy doing it this way, but will remove the oxide while
preventing subsequent contact with air.


Man.. somebody took you for a ride.

I used to polish Stainless, and Aluminum sheets... Titanium, Brass,
etc.

It is 'raw' for quite some time. The reason one wants to abrade
aluminum wiring is because their surfaces DO get oxidized when the
wire gets it sheath put on during manufacture. Freshly exposed
Aluminum doesn't suddenly "oxidize up right before one's eyes..."
Sorry.

Your "almost immediately" is a figment of your imagination. One
doesn't have to hurry, and one doesn't have to abrade the wire "wet"
either.

The poster that said axle grease was OK is incorrect as well. That
grease has acids in it, and will eventually have a reaction with the
wire. A conductive matrix of anti-oxidant is required.

I wouldn't use Aluminum if I were paid, myself.

Copper is where *it's* at!

Silly wabbit.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would have thought that a wealthy person such as yourself would
have chosen gold-plated silver wiring... :)
Just raw silver is fine. The oxide protects it.

Pure silver oxide is even more conductive than silver is.
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
DarkMatter said:
Man.. somebody took you for a ride.

I used to polish Stainless, and Aluminum sheets... Titanium, Brass,
etc.

It is 'raw' for quite some time. The reason one wants to abrade
aluminum wiring is because their surfaces DO get oxidized when the
wire gets it sheath put on during manufacture. Freshly exposed
Aluminum doesn't suddenly "oxidize up right before one's eyes..."
Sorry.

Your "almost immediately" is a figment of your imagination. One
doesn't have to hurry, and one doesn't have to abrade the wire "wet"
either.

The poster that said axle grease was OK is incorrect as well. That
grease has acids in it, and will eventually have a reaction with the
wire. A conductive matrix of anti-oxidant is required.

I wouldn't use Aluminum if I were paid, myself.

Copper is where *it's* at!

Silly wabbit.

Care to cite a reference for all of that Mr. Know-it-all gibberish? That's
ok, I'll do it for you:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
DarkMatter said:
Gibberish? **** you. I know more about metals, joining metals, and
binding metals together than you ever will. No matter where you look.

Translated that means: "no, I won't post any references because I don't have
nor need any. I just made it all up. But that's good enough because I know
everything, your reference - or any other you may find - notwithstanding."

Your true colors shine through as always! What a pathetic closed-minded
ignorant individual you are. I think I'll go now and leave some dark matter
in my toilet.
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Translated that means: "no, I won't post any references because I don't have
nor need any. I just made it all up. But that's good enough because I know
everything, your reference - or any other you may find - notwithstanding."

Your true colors shine through as always! What a pathetic closed-minded
ignorant individual you are. I think I'll go now and leave some dark matter
in my toilet.
You're full of shit. I'll say it again:

Freshly cut aluminum is not in immediate danger of instant
oxidation. For you to think it is, shows you to be of questionable
education in that area. Deal with it. I don't need references, you
do.
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
DarkMatter said:
You're full of shit. I'll say it again:

Freshly cut aluminum is not in immediate danger of instant
oxidation. For you to think it is, shows you to be of questionable
education in that area. Deal with it. I don't need references, you
do

Again, translated that means: "I have no references and I'm getting really
pissed that you don't accept everything I say as gospel." Sorry Mr. light
bulb, your word ain't enough. BTW, when you wrote research papers in
school, I bet your bibliography looked something like this:

1. DarkMatter (or whaterver your stupid name is)
2. ibid
3. ibid
4. ibid
5. ibid
6. ibid
7. ibid
8. ibid
9. ibid
10. ibid
11. ibid
12. ibid
13. ibid
14. ibid
15. ibid
 
D

DarkMatter

Jan 1, 1970
0
BTW, when you wrote research papers in
school, I bet your bibliography looked something like this:

You're a goddamned retarded usenet troll, boy.
 
J

John

Jan 1, 1970
0
The funny part about this whole thing is that I just ran this question by an
electrical inspector. He said it was good practice to put antioxidant on
big aluminum wires, but they really don't need it and I shouldn't bother
trying to fix them.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
The funny part about this whole thing is that I just ran this question by an
electrical inspector. He said it was good practice to put antioxidant on
big aluminum wires, but they really don't need it and I shouldn't bother
trying to fix them.


Well, as with a lot of things, I find that RTFM works best. If the panel
manufacturer recommends it, use it. If they say no anti-oxidant required,
don't worry too much.

AFAIK, anti-oxidant isn't needed for branch circuit wiring with Al, but that
is branch wiring, so there you go.

daestrom
 
N

Nukie Poo

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
by


Well, as with a lot of things, I find that RTFM works best. If the panel
manufacturer recommends it, use it. If they say no anti-oxidant required,
don't worry too much.

AFAIK, anti-oxidant isn't needed for branch circuit wiring with Al, but that
is branch wiring, so there you go.

daestrom

It might be worth mentioning that it is the small branch-circuit type of
wiring that has earned Aluminum its' infamous reputation as a fire hazard,
not the heavier-gauge feeders and services. The latter is still allowed by
the NEC whereas the former is no longer in new installations.
 
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