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A sound energy policy.

Discussion in 'Photovoltaics' started by N9WOS, Apr 7, 2005.

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  1. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    A rambling of some thoughts regarding renewable energy, conservation and
    energy production.
    It will be a long post, I just have that feeling.

    Now there is a few things that I may disagree with the vice president on,
    but when he stated that "Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but
    it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy" I
    could not agree more. Some people will yell that conservation can reduce
    energy consumption by x amount, but they are missing the entire point. There
    is times when people are thinking on an entirely different level when they
    make a comment, and the people that criticize the comment just don't grasp
    what they are saying. If it's from an ingrained myopic view, or just
    ignorance, is up for debate, but that is besides the point.

    The point of his statement was that conservation, as it is today, is not a
    viable bases for any energy policy. Or basically, conservation, as it's
    practiced today, doesn't really help, in regards to energy demand. There is
    lots of people that will cuss me out, and say I'm full of bull.$**T, but
    they do not grasp the full picture, and the comments are beyond their
    comprehension. It is something I realized years ago, when I seen the
    practices used to promote energy efficiency. The way conservation is
    practiced in today's world, it often ends up wasting more energy than it
    saves. When it finally hit me is when I seen a bunch of electricians
    changing out florescent ballast in an office building. I said to them, "Didn't
    you just change them out two years ago?" The electrician said, "Yes, but we
    have to change them again, to meet current efficiency requirements." Two
    years previous, they had changed them to Mark3 energy saver magnetic
    ballast. But that year, they removed the almost new ballast, and put in
    electronic ballast. I done some figuring and come to the remarkable
    conclusion that the forced change out of the ballast two years ago, wasted
    vast amounts of energy, and was a very waste full practice. They would of
    conserved energy if they would of left the old ballast in for two more
    years "wasting energy" until they put in the electronic ballast that year.
    The energy that the ballast saved those two years, is less than the energy
    that it took to produce that ballast. So all you did was relocate the energy
    use, and added a lot of waste. Conserving is the last thing you did.

    Relocating energy use, instead of true conservation is the majority of stuff
    I see. It is like trying to grab an egg. If you try to hard, then you will
    destroy what you are trying to get. If they try to hard to achieve energy
    conservation, you will end up wasting more than you save. The concept of
    forced change out, and replacing operational equipment before it's useful
    life has come to an end, is fundamentally flawed. Unless the savings in
    energy is phenomenal, then it is a total waste of energy to change it out
    before it had finished it's service life. Once it has finished it's service
    life, then you should upgrade to the newest, most efficient system. The
    total environmental impact of replacing the system will already be incurred,
    so that's the time to do it. If you replace a $10,000 refrigeration system
    for a model that is 10% more efficient, the monthly electrical cost is $500
    a month, the service life is 10 years, and the system is still within it's
    scheduled lifespan. then you have just wasted energy. The accumulated
    energy impact for replacement is $1000 a year. The energy saved is $600 a
    year. If you change it with 5 years of life left, then you have thrown away
    $5000 worth of energy, to save $3000, The replacement system will have to be
    replace 5 years earlier, so you won't make up that $2000 in wasted energy
    that was wasted by changing it 5 years early.

    You may ask, why am I measuring energy in dollars? Well.. Because that is
    the most accurate way I can discern energy used to produce a product, and
    keep it running. You may say, "Well not all of that money goes to buying
    energy to make the product!" but that concept is slightly flawed. Yes, there
    is a lot of profit. But profit will be spend on other stuff that requires
    energy to make, so it all energy spent to get the product made, and
    delivered to you. The delivery man gets a pay check from it, but that pay
    check buys electricity for his house, fuel for his car, and gas to keep his
    house warm in the winter. If a person makes more profit on an item, then
    that means that he don't have to sell as many to stay in business, which
    means that every item that he sells has a higher energy tag to it, because
    the energy to keep the business running will remain constant. The lights are
    still on, the trucks still make their routs, but they just don't haul as
    many units. So the per unit energy tag is higher.

    All in all, if you spend $100 on a product that will save $10 in energy over
    it's life, compared to a $20 unit, then you have just wasted energy.
    Because the $100 product has five times as mush energy overhead than the $20
    product. You have, in essence, wasted $70 dollars in energy. Yes, the $20
    product has 2 people producing it, and the $100 product still only has two
    people producing it, and the actually energy used in making the product, is
    the same, and they are producing the same number of unit's a year, but the
    two people producing the $100 unit is using the extra profits to pay 8
    other people to take care of their privet yachts, so you actually you have
    5 times as much energy being used to support the production of the $100
    unit. If you take use that frame of mind to look at the modern conservation
    concepts, then you realize how much of a fallacy modern conservation is.

    It makes the idea of forcing companies to spend large sums of money to save
    a handful of power, look almost insane. You have all these big companies pop
    up, to provide products to save energy, that the government forces people to
    use, but the infrastructure that supports the companies providing energy
    efficient products is consuming more energy than the products are saving.

    Maybe the reason why we are having these energy shortages is because of
    everyone building all this stuff to save energy.

    Like governments, and people changing out mercury vapor lights for metal
    halide in an application where they don't really need true white light. They
    say, "It may cost more over the long run with the more frequent bulb
    changes, but the metal halide will only use half the power, so it will be
    helping the environment." I say to myself, "you freaking ignorant piece of
    #^*W$!!!!!!!!! The extra infrastructure required to change out the metal
    halide bulbs more often, consumes more energy than the metal halide bulbs
    save over mercury vapor." And thin they come out with a real wacko comment
    along the lines of..."And the metal halide bulbs will be more friendly to
    the environment, because they don't contain mercury, like the mercury vapor
    bulbs do." Just because Metal halide bulbs don't have "mercury" in their
    name, doesn't mean that they don't contain mercury, you freaking imbecile!

    All in all, government forced conservation, doesn't rank very highly on my
    list. I think we have to much of it as is.

    Energy conservation has it's place, but right now, most people don't seem to
    realize where that place is.

    The only real option we have, is to find ways to produce more energy. Be it
    via nuclear fission/fusion, solar, geo, wind, hydro, bio, or fossil. And
    with all ways of procuring energy, it takes energy to get energy. It takes
    energy to build ships, drilling rigs, and equipment to hunt for oil. It
    takes equipment to build a reactor. It takes energy to build a solar panel.
    Like people saying, we shouldn't worry about the energy shortages, we should
    just build PV panels. May I ask them this question.. Where do we get the
    energy to build the solar panels. If a drilling rig has no gas to run it's
    engine, then it can't drill to get the oil. The easiest way is to use the
    fossil fuel, and nuclear industries to produce the power now. The are
    already established, and the energy load that will be endured by using them
    to meet the demand, will be minimal, compared to the alternatives. And once
    you get enough excess energy into the system provided by those methods, then
    you can use that extra energy to support the expansion of the alternative
    energy sources.

    A crystal growing plant, can't produce silicon crystal for PV panels, if the
    coal fired power plant that powers it can't get enough coal to keep the
    power on.

    On that note, the ideas for a "solar breeder" is borderline stupid.
    Oh.Look... The crystal growing plant is using power to run some crystal
    growing furnaces. Whoopty do.. It's like using a solar panel to power an
    exhaust fan on a factory, and calling it a solar powered factory. To have a
    true "solar breeder" you would require all of the energy used in producing
    the panels, to be provide by panels you produce. The crystal growing
    operation needs to be powered by PV. All the energy for the homes of the
    crystal growing factory workers needs to be powered by PV. The vehicles
    that transport the workers to the factory needs to be powered by PV. All the
    industries that support the workers (hospital, food, consumables ..on and
    on) needs to be supported by PV. The infrastructure for mining and
    purification of all the elements to supply the crystal growing factory,
    their workers and related infrastructures, need to be powered by PV. The
    factory that puts the cells into the panels, and it's related
    infrastructures (metal foundries workers.. ec. ) need to be powered by PV.
    The people, and companies that distribute, and install the modules, need to
    be powered by PV. All the companies that build the inverters, batteries, and
    equipment to use the panels, and their related infrastructures, need to be
    powered by PV. And all the PV panels that power all of the above, needs to
    be replicated by the entire system, within the lifespan of the panels. That
    is why it is just easier to figure that when the panel has paid for it's
    self in dollar terms, (in reference to energy cost, at the date of it's
    production), then it is safe to say that it has yielded a positive energy
    payback, and that it's production has made a positive impact on the
    environment.

    And, all that PV breeder stuff is missing the entire point that, it doesn't
    mater if the energy is used to power the production process, or not. As long
    as the panels are in use, then that is more conventional energy that is free
    to go other places, or to be saved for a later date. If the PV production
    plant has 100KW of PV to run it, but the homes around it have to run off of
    a local power plant, or the homes have a distributed 100KW of PV, and the PV
    production plant runs off of the local power station. What's the difference?
    It will still take 10 or more years to pay back the energy it took the
    produce the panels. And for that 10 or so years, producing PV will actually
    cause a net burden on the energy supply. So, if we go crazy with production
    right now, we will need extra power from other sources to hold us over for
    the 10 or so years until we finally break even on production related energy
    burden, compared to the energy the panels are producing in the field.

    Take this formula based on an imaginary panel and community.
    Existing community takes X watts per year.
    Total cumulative energy usage producing a panel, will consume 1MW.
    The panel will produce 100KW per year.
    Total energy payback time is 10 years.

    You start panel production in the community.
    Panel production is 1000 unit's a year.
    That will increase energy consumption of the community by 1GW per year for
    the first year.
    Second year, with one year's worth of units in operation, you will have a
    net positive load of 900MW from the production.
    Third year, 800MW.
    Forth year, 700MW.
    ........
    .........
    Eleventh year, with ten years worth of units in the fields.
    Or ten times the yearly production, then the units in the field will be
    producing the same amount of energy as the PV production infrastructure is
    consuming. From that point on, you have a positive energy benefit to the
    community.

    In 20 years, you will have a net zero energy budget, from the time the
    factory started production. If the panel life is twice the energy payback
    time, then the total community energy payback of the factory will be 2X the
    payback of the panel, or the lifetime of the panel.

    If the total life expectancy of the PV panels is 20 years, then you will
    have to have a PV production industry with a power consumption that is equal
    to the energy usage of the community that is being powered by Pv production
    industry. Ten years worth of panels will be powering the PV production
    system, while the other 10 years of panels will be powering the community
    that is not related to the PV production system.

    I guess it is a way to provide extra jobs. You will basically employ half of
    the population in the PV industry to supply power to the other half of the
    population.

    The panels better have a life expectancy three or more times their payback
    period, or half the US population is going to be working for something that
    relates to the PV industry. Or we better find other sources of energy like
    fusion, or something else with a quicker payback period. Otherwise, the
    majority of the energy produced by the panels will be used in making more
    panels.

    Any way you go about it, if we want to get PV off the ground, we are going
    to have to find an existing source of energy to get the PV production system
    of the ground, and get it running. Otherwise, we will be the operator
    setting at the controls of an oil drilling rig that has no gas to run it's
    engine.

    My opinion is that solar thermal will be a better choice for large scale
    solar energy production. Energy payback is a lot quicker.

    On hydrogen.
    People say that it's not a useful energy source. I have to agree. No, it is
    not a useful energy source, but it is critical as an energy transport
    system. For years, the energy transport system, was the energy source it's
    self. That being oil. But that will no longer apply. Just like electricity
    is not a useful energy source. No, the world hasn't got one ounce of useful
    energy from electricity. It is just a transport. It carries the energy from
    a chemical reaction in a battery, to the circuitry in a radio. It carries
    the energy from a steam turbine in the power plant to the compressor shaft
    on your refrigerator. How would you like a drive shaft running clear from
    the power plant to your fridge, to power the compressor? Yes, hydrogen is
    not a very efficient transport system. The same can be said for electricity,
    but it works.

    It is also critical as energy storage. With all these non-reliable energy
    sources, then you need a storage system that can hold large quantities of
    energy to run us for many weeks, if the sun don't shine. And it has to be
    loss free storage. Not like batteries that run down over a few month. You
    put energy in a storage unit, and it has to be there three years from now. A
    30 to 50 percent loss in conversion is acceptable, but once you convert it,
    it needs to be in a stable form. The energy has to be movable across long
    distances with little to no loss. And the transport system should require
    very little energy to operate. The transportation and storage
    infrastructure equipment should have an achievable lifespan of many decades.
    Movement of the energy to a car or other vehicle should be quick and simple.
    With compressed and metallic storage systems, and pipelines, Hydrogen meets
    those requirements. Batteries do not.

    Without hydrogen, then nuclear power plants will be required indefinitely as
    a power source during the nighttime, and any other time that the sun doesn't
    shine. Without a system that we can stockpile massive quantities of energy
    for a rainy day, month, year, then renewable energy will never be able to
    exist as a stand alone power source. And it's most likely partner will be
    nuclear power of some type.

    And as far as conservation, yes, it will probably have it's place in there,
    someplace. But, hopefully, it won't be the same concept of conservation that
    they are pushing now. Hopefully, by that time, energy conservation will
    actually achieve real reduction in energy required by the world to operate.

    N9WOS
     
  2. Glenn Martin

    Glenn Martin Guest

    OK. I've pieced my way through your post and a number of things aren't
    clear.
    The example of 'conservation' you gave (replacing a recently purchased
    light bulb before its broken or worn out) is actually an example of waste.
    I think that we can agree that not conserving things is not conservation.
    The examples you sited were actually examples of beauraucratic nonsense
    which always waste time, energy and money.
    Your contention that conservation doesn't help regarding energy demand is
    also confusing. Surely reducing energy use will reduce demand. I grant
    you, it will only reduce the increase in energy demand over time but this
    will allow many power authorities to delay building new, less-efficient
    power plants for a number of years. When a plant has a lifespan of 50 years
    or more, getting locked into more wasteful technology now makes little sense
    when a delay of even ten years can realise savings in both energy and money.
    By the end of this decade, China expects to be in production of 'pebble-bed'
    nuclear reactors which have many benefits...
    -No-one can figure out how to make them melt down, even with the cooling
    system turned off.
    -They deliver 30% more "push" at the turbine which means 30% more power
    out of the same amount of fuel because they use helium instead of water.
    -They have less 'plumbing' in their design and the helium doesn't carry
    radioactivity into it the way water does (nor does it corrode it the way
    water does) which means less radioactive waste to be disposed of.
    -They're smaller than regular piles and more of them are required for a
    given level of power production but this means they can be mass-produced
    unlike regular reactors which have to be built on site. This will actually
    make them the cheaper option and they'll actually have a smaller footprint
    and less infrastructure than regular water-cooled reactors.
    Delaying a few years can make a huge difference.
    The last point I want to make is that the equating of energy and money is
    an iffy proposition for analysis purposes. A barrel of oil can rise from
    40$ to 50$ in a month but it won't have %25 more energy in it. Gas is
    consistently two times or more the cost it is in the US but it's no more
    powerful. When the new Volkswagen Beetle came on the market it ended up
    selling for twice as much as designed because of huge consumer demand. It
    cost no more in terms of energy or money to get it to the showroom floor.
    I've read claims that market forces can be factored out to allow
    equivalency of gass and dollars but I've yet to see evidence that this has
    been done or even can be done.
    In conclusion, though I'd like to thank you for bringing this topic up as
    it's one I'm very much interested in. Please continue to post.

    Glenn Martin


    .... a lot of stuff
     
  3. Ah. Well, then, there's not much point in commenting since your entire post
    was clearly beyond my comprehension.
     
  4. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    The best conservation is conservation that doesn't cost a penny.
    Like shutting off the lights when no ones there.
    Like not running the engine of the car for hours while sitting in a parking
    lot.

    But spending large sums of money chasseing after fractional amounts is
    actually wasting energy.
    Because the energy that your money releases into the environment is far more
    than the energy you saved.
    (Cha...ching!!!!!!!!!!!) You get it!!
    That applies to almost every product.
    Waiting for a better product to come along, instead of uselessly replacing ,
    or building stuff now, is and easy form of conservation.
    You don't get the point.
    The energy that is actually IN the product, does not equate to the total
    amount of energy that is released to the atmosphere in the production of
    that product. If they charge and extra $10 a barrel, do you think they are
    just going to sit on that $10 for eternity. No, they are going to spend it.
    What are they going to spend it on, cars, radios, guns, houses,... On and
    on... All of those take energy. So when the price of a barrel of oil goes
    up, the environmental impact will also rise.
    But the companies that is in the production line get a lot more money. That
    money goes to the shareholders, and is eventually spent on more energy using
    products. So the environmental impact has actually gone up.
    Yes it did.
    The show room floors didn't have to sell as many cars that month to stay in
    business. So the environmental load of running the car dealership was placed
    on fewer cars. Those being beetles, so they had an increased environmental
    impact. Or they spent the extra money on improvements to the dealership, or
    bought a fancy sports car to drive around in. So in the end, the added
    demand and price did increase the environmental impact that selling the cars
    had.
    The reason you think that, is you keep thinking the money is going to
    something that doesn't require more energy. But you are forgetting that the
    money always ends up going back to something that requires energy. Give a
    child $10 and you could say that it didn't have an environmental impact. But
    it does. That child will end up buying a stuff toy that requires lots of
    energy to make.
    That is what I like to do, make people think. :)
     
  5. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Depending on wide scale H2 usage as a energy source will quickly
    More fear mongering.
    Did you even read the article you linked to?
    That article also took a good stab at fear mongering on it's own.
    It left out a very important piece of information.
    H2 will react with hydroxyl radicals to the total effect of increasing water
    content in the upper atmosphere.
    It will slow the repair of an ozone hole/ozone formation. With all things
    being equal, the ozone hole would increase. That is if all other energy use
    stayed the same, and you started dumping hydrogen into the air.

    But all things are not equal.
    If you go to a hydrogen economy, with renewable energy sources, the amount
    of ozone destroying products entering the stratosphere, that means that the
    hole won't need to repair it's self as quickly, because there is less stuff
    actively making a hole. And there will be lower amounts of other substances
    that enter the stratosphere, that inhibit ozone repair, and those substances
    are far more damaging than the hydrogen that people are complaining about.

    And it is hardly the only source of stratospheric water.
    CH4 counts in there highly.

    Even the article reluctantly admits that the effects will be a net positive,
    at the bottom!!

    It is just the environmentalist playing politics.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030902074301.htm

    http://www.you.com.au/news/2055.htm

    Read the articles you link to, will ya!
    Where in heck do they talk about H2 reacting with O3?
    H2 reacts with OH.

    http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov2001/1005320570.Ch.r.html

    Look at this article, notice what is required for hydrogen to react with O3.
    The oxygen in O3 can react with H2 after the oxygen is no longer in the 03
    molecule. By that time, there the O3 molecule is already destroyed.

    http://www.emep.int/ozone/lagr_pho/chemical_reactions.html
     
  6. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    That's not to say that nobody ever makes stupid decisions in the name of
    That is what I use to think.
    After I started looking at the entire loop, then I now realize that it is
    happening so much that it is almost shameful.
    Part of that cost for the electricity is from burning the fuel in the power
    plant. For large industrial users, that is the primary fraction of the power
    cost. But for residential users, that is not the primary fraction. The
    primary fraction for residential users is the infrastructure cost. The
    equipment maintenance schedule to replace and repair the equipment supplying
    your home. That money runs line trucks, builds transformers, and harvests
    trees for poles. All of it is less efficient than the primary power circuit
    that charges your phone.
    The energy prices that went into making the panels that are on the market
    "today" is included in the price.
    When the other panels make it to the market, then you can bet energy price
    is part of it., And even if they don't charge any more, to reflect the price
    of gas and oil used in production, then that means that the producer just
    made less profit, so he can't spend as much on "fun" stuff, so in the end,
    the energy released into the environment to produce that panel, will be
    relatively locked to the price.
    You are using your brain, that is all one can ask for.
    Most people I see, are not using their brain.
    T8 lights, anyone?
    Forced usage comes to mind.

    If there is a power shortage, then the power utilities should be the last
    one that's bankrupt.
    Smells of price controls, and head people taking money out of the cookie
    jar.
    That is being nice.
    Or they could have just increase the electricity price to force you to use
    less energy.
    That is how supply and demand is suppose to work.
    When there is a gas shortage, price goes up, so people drive less. Thus,
    demand will drop to meet supply.
    All money runs in a loop. There is no place at the sun to deposit $5 to get
    some energy.
    The sun is the source of the power (energy) for the system, but it is not in
    the system loop. The people getting power off the sun, sell power to the
    manufacturers in the city, and to the home of the people in the city. The
    manufacturers use that energy to make products. The generating people take
    that money and spend it on products to keep the place running. Those
    products cost money. The same money that the companies pay for energy is
    paid back to the companies in labor, and parts. It is a continuous cycle
    where all money flows through the people that are at the energy source. That
    is currently the oil and coal companies.

    Based on that, you could say that if the oil company increase price of their
    product based on a shortage , then they will just end up paying more for the
    products they by, and an endless spiraling loop to infinity will be created.
    That would be true if you didn't take into account the way market
    economics, and supply and demand is suppose to work. As the price goes up,
    then demand will drop off to the point that it meets supply. The energy
    going into producing the products to keep the source running will drop a
    bit.

    If the energy source get to expensive, then they will consume off an energy
    source that doesn't put as much demand on the market that it's supporting.
    The price that the energy source is getting for what it can produce is a bit
    higher, but so is what it's paying out. It will naturally equal out, that is
    how the market is suppose to work. That's why it irritates me for people to
    complain about gas prices. That is the way it's suppose to work. Higher
    fossil fuel prices, makes other energy sources more viable.

    A free market will naturally consume off the cheapest source of energy. When
    renewable energy gets cheaper, then it will be the primary source.
    But if you don't maximize conventional sources now, then you won't have any
    old energy to work with.
    That is why I think a centralized production system will be the primary
    setup for solar powered generation.
    Power will be generated in the desert regions, and transported via hydrogen
    and high voltage trassmission systems to the rest of the US.
     
  7. Paul Dube

    Paul Dube Guest

    Bravo! Well Done Sir N9WOS
    I am very impressed by your knowledge and understanding of
    our current energy situation (crisis).This article should be posted
    in newspapers throughout the country. You should think about
    taking up politics and making things "right". Thank you for enlightening
    the ignorant masses (me included) as to the "Big Picture" and looking at
    things from outside "The Box"

    Thoroughly impressed............ Paul ....................
     
  8. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Ahhhh... I don't know about that.
    The idea of my horrible grammar, and spelling
    posted across every newspaper, makes me cringe. :-0
     
  9. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Do the calc's you'll find the quite a few intermediate reactions
    Uuuuu......... aren't you missing something?

    There is usually two parts to water.

    Hydrogen, and oxygen.

    You are so obsessed with the hydrogen, that you are missing the oxygen part.
    The extra oxygen introduced into the atmosphere will neutralize additional
    natural, and man made hydrogen. So in the end, additional existing hydrogen
    will be neutralized, and directly replaced with man made hydrogen if it's
    vented.

    The hydrogen side is a closed system, but the oxygen doesn't just disappear.
    The atmosphere forms a closed system in it's self. If you pump hydrogen and
    oxygen out from splitting water, they will naturally have a tendency to
    cancel each other out, in the environment. So you will end up back where you
    started. Water.

    If the hydrogen consumes some oxygen atoms from the ozone layer, that means
    there is additional oxygen atoms from the splitting process that no longer
    have a pair. (ie) Oxygen enrichment.

    There is two supply chains in the hydrogen economy system. The hydrogen
    side, which is via pipes and storage, and the oxygen side, which is via the
    normal atmosphere. The hydrogen production plant is venting pure oxygen to
    the atmosphere, and capturing the hydrogen to be used a fuel. When you burn
    hydrogen, you need air, which contains oxygen, and you end up with water.
    Both supply loops are completed, and you end up with what you started.
    Water.

    Actually, now that I think about it, hydrogen enrichment of the atmosphere
    is the last thing I would be worried about. I would worry about oxygen
    enrichment. If you build up massive amounts of hydrogen in an energy reserve
    system, then that means that you would have an unimaginable number of metric
    tons worth of oxygen that has been freed into the atmosphere. And it will
    remain there, until they hydrogen is burnt, or till it's vented which will
    allow it to neutralize the excess oxygen, there by, creating water.

    If you increase the free oxygen content of the atmosphere, what will that do
    to the ozone layer? (smiles)

    It seems the people doing the atmospheric modeling has also overlooked half
    of the equation. That being the oxygen side. Such a pity. :)
     
  10. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    You missed some fundamentals..
    No, oxygen doesn't stay close to the earth.
    The atmosphere is far more complicated than that.

    http://spacescience.nrl.navy.mil/introupatmsci.html

    Yes, the O2 concentrations, based on percentage of total gas volume, no
    longer make up the normal percentage, at altitude. Interestingly enough the
    percentage of O2 remains about the same when compared to N2 and Ar.
    All three evenly reduce in density as altitude increases past 800km+.

    The ozone layer is around 20 to 30 Km above the earth's surface. Some say
    10 to 70Km
    Notice that the H and H2 levels don't start rising from natural hydrogen
    buoyancy until about 150Km

    But, elementary oxygen "O" becomes the primary atmosphere component from
    250Km to 700Km. O is broken down from O2 by light.

    Anything above 500Km, O and H2 are the primary substances.
    Anything above 600Km, O , H2 and H are the primary substances.
    Anything above 700Km, H2 and H are the primary substances.
    Notice that 700Km is way above the top of the ozone layer.

    The hydrogen concentrations, based on total gas density, at the ozone layer
    is negligible.
    The enriching effect from it's buoyancy doesn't make it a major part of the
    gas makeup,
    until you get past the 200Km range.
    Thus, no affect on the O3 layer, because the hydrogen is way above the O3
    layer

    O concentrations at those altitudes will produce a decent amount of
    attrition of the H and H2 molecules.
    If you raise the O2 levels at ground, the O2 concentrations at altitude will
    naturally even out. And since the O level is directly feeds off of the O2
    layer by photonic actions. I can easily say that O concentrations will
    increase accordingly.

    Thus, I can postulate that a hydrogen based economy, based off of the
    splitting of water, with a large portion of hydrogen in storage, and oxygen
    vented, will actually reduce the hydrogen content of the upper atmosphere,
    as a result of hydrogen attrition from elevated oxygen levels.

    And, as a result of elevated O2 And O levels, the natural production of
    ozone will actually increase. :)

    http://history.nasa.gov/CP-2156/ch2.8.htm

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/chemistry/chem-c2407/hw/ozone_kinetics.pdf

    http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/ozone.htm
     
  11. Glenn Martin

    Glenn Martin Guest

    This doesn't actually disagree with my post. I was merely pointing out that
    the example the first poster used of 'conservation' was, in fact, "chucking
    out perfectly good stuff" or "waste". This is the very opposite of
    conservation and so shouldn't be used as an example of conservation.
    The only energy my m,oney releases to the environment is either my body heat
    which is released anyway or energy upon combustion. Since all old, tattered
    bills are burnt anyway, this makes no difference.
    On the other hand, there's always better stuff coming down the pipe in most
    technologies. If I waited for the best computer technology, I'd never own
    one.

    The only problem with this is that when gas and oil prices go up, the
    economy actually slows down resulting in less purchasing and manufacturing
    and thus less energy expenditure. If you can point me toward a study or
    essay that confirms your conclusion, please do so.
    But if I follow this argument to its' logical conclusion, because gas
    costs twice as much in Europe it has twice the environmental impact despite
    the fact Europeans drive less and generally use smaller, more
    energy-efficient cars. I contend that the PRICE=ECONOMIC ACTIVITY=ENERGY
    USAGE formula is a lot more limited in its' usefulness than you think.
    Only if the money was spent as you say rather than being banked and
    provided that money had the environmental effect you say it did. Frankly I
    find that a pretty shaky assumption.
    Or he'll buy something that requires much less energy to make or he'll
    save it to buy the latest fad doll which has doubled in price due to demand
    but took just as much energy to make or buy something that's completely
    recyclable . All these are possibilities with very different environmental
    impacts. It's not a very good fit this energy equals money thing.


    Glenn Martin
     
  12. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    On the other hand, there's always better stuff coming down the pipe in
    most
    The main point is to know when to upgrade.
    Do it when the technology has just made a large advance to the point that
    the foreseeable coming equipment will just be a marginal improvement,
    and/or, the existing equipment needs replace anyway.
    That is what, true, unadulterated, conservation looks like.
    People consuming less energy and products to survive.
    True conservation, and economic growth, are fundamentally at odds.

    It gets me when an organization is pushing a "conserving" product, and they
    say, "Every dollar you save, will put 3 dollars into the economy"
    What????????? How can something that reduces the amount of money spend on an
    item, increase the money in the economy??????????? There is something
    fundamentally wrong with that statement. If you don't have to spend as much
    on energy, then you will put less money into the economy, because you won't
    have to spend it.

    I can't at this time, I'll have to look around.
    But it is not a very big leap in logic.

    If the consumers use half the oil at the elevated price, then the producer
    gets the same amount of money to produce half the oil, so he will take the
    rest of the money that is no longer needed for oil production and spend it
    on other stuff. That stuff requires energy to make. Or if they buy the same
    amount of oil, then the producer is getting twice the money, which he will
    still spend on stuff that takes energy. Thus, either way, the total
    environmental impact of each gallon of oil sold, is increased.

    That is with conditions.
    The conditions are that, the price of all other sources of energy remain the
    same. (ie) oil goes up, but NG and coal does not. The person that gets twice
    as much for his oil will still buy products that reflect the unchanged
    prices of the other energy sources, so he can buy more, which increases the
    environmental impact of people buying his oil.

    If all of the energy prices go up because of an all around lack of supply,
    then the environmental impact will not increase, because anything the oil
    producer wants to buy will cost twice as much. So, in reality, when all
    energy sources go up evenly, then the actual energy value of a dollar, is
    reduced by the opposite amount. So, in the end, he can't buy anything more
    than he could before.
    It's a direct, and painful conclusion, but it's one I have already thought
    about, and agree with. If, via taxes, and other government controls, you
    double the price of gas. There is only one natural conclusion, when you by
    that gallon of gas, half of the money is going to the government, or other
    organization. The government will use that to buy equipment, and services.
    That money will be supporting an organization that is consuming large
    quantities of energy. When you buy that gallon of gas, you give them more
    money to spend on products and energy. In total, when you buy a gallon of
    gas, you also buy a gallon of gas for the government. So, the economic
    impact of you buying that gallon of gas is doubled. The government may not
    spend it on gas, but they will probably spend it on electric bills, or
    products that support the organizations that the gas taxes prop up.

    If the government can reduce gas usage by 50% with the tax that doubles the
    price, you will end up with about the same amount of energy used if you
    would of left the price alone, and let the people use twice as much.
    Money doesn't just sit around in a bank.
    If everyone went to get all their money out of a bank at once, the bank
    couldn't come up with the money. The reason banks allow free checking, and
    stuff, is because they used deposited money to loan to people, in an effort
    to make more money. That money that is loaned to someone, it is used to buy
    equipment and products that take energy. Products that they would not of
    been able to buy before. So, if you put it in a bank, you are giving it to
    someone else to spend. And the original owner of the money will not just let
    it sit in his bank account forever. He will spend the money (that he wouldn't
    of had without the inflated price) on a product that requires energy. Or
    beneficiaries will spend it, after he dies.

    But selling that doll will get the seller twice as much money, and that
    extra money will buy the seller twice as much as it would of without the
    inflated price, and twice as much stuff, equals twice as much energy used.
    If he buys something recyclable, then he is still paying for the
    environmental impact of the company producing that product, and if it's a
    recycled product, then he is paying for the environmental impact of the
    company recycling the product.
    People keep telling themselves that, but it doesn't make it true.
    Like you referring to putting it in a bank, or a recyclable product, or the
    like, but that doesn't get around the fact that where ever you point, it
    will always lead back to the energy source.

    Money is the exact opposite of energy. Energy flows one way, money flows the
    other way through the economy. You could basically say money is Antienergy.
    It's value is the exact opposite of the sum of the energy in the system.
    More energy feeding the system, the higher energy value that money has.
    (ie)Energy is cheap so people waste it. It is given to a person in exchange
    of services that took energy to perform. Like a person that trims trees. His
    work may cost nothing in the way of produced energy, but the person that
    trims trees, needs energy to stay alive. He needs energy to heat his house,
    and power his car. And he gives that money to other people that use energy
    to produce food, so he can eat. Basically, you are giving him a receipt to
    get energy, so he can stay alive, to trim your trees. So him trimming your
    trees has an environmental impact equal to the amount of money have to you
    pay him to do so.
     
  13. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    The ozone layer is around 20 to 30 Km above the earth's surface. Some say
    And the reactable area is logarithmically larger too. The is a substantial
    quantity of gas in that area, even at the vastly reduced pressures, and
    densities.
    What the hell does that have to do with this discussion?
    What the hell does the ability to use aerodynamic surfaces, got to do with
    it's contribution to the chemical reaction.
    There is many more metric tons of H2 in that area than the human race will
    ever create in are lifetimes, and you say it won't have an impact?
    You talk about me coming to conclusions that have no basses.
    Now that is a conclusion with no basses.
    You are stretching it a bit thin here.
    To do anything of value, in reference to blocking UV rays. But that has no
    bearing on it's contribution to the chemical reaction, formation, and
    destruction of the 03 layer. Do you actually think that the formation, and
    destruction of the 03 that feeds the ozone layer only happens in the areas
    that it is dense enough to perform it's primary beneficiary act? That being
    blocking UV light.
     
  14. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Self correction.
     
  15. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    There is many more metric tons of H2 in that area than the human race will
    Strike that remark.
    After doing some calculation.
    We could produce that much.
    100,000's of cubic Km's but it's could be surpassed.
     
  16. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Do you base this conclusion on anecdotal evidence and assumptions, or do
    I was just wasting a little time, throwing out a few thoughts.
    It is just my opinion
    If you want o put any stock in that opinion, it is up to you.
    It is not my job to change your mind.
    If you chose to disagree with it, so be it.
    So be it.
    Local utility here, is an REMC.

    http://www.sciremc.com/ratetariffs.php

    By definition, they can not make any profit.
    The generating company is an REMC.
    By definition, they can not make any profit.
    Anything they charge, has to be used to cover what it was billed for
    They charge a little over $0.022 per KWH for large users.
    That is based off of price to generate the power, plus losses to get it to
    the user.
    There is a recurring monthly charge that is imposed to cover cost of
    providing service to the user.
    That is $60 per month
    And there is a peak KW hour cost to cover the percentage of the total line
    capacity you are using.
    That is $8.55 per peak KW
    Thus, paying for the repair of the line, and replacement when needed.

    Industrial users pay a little more for their energy, at about $0.025 per KWH
    But that is because they have a more dynamic load.
    Large machines shutting off, and one, surges, ec. which causes additional
    losses for the utility.

    Lets assume that delivery efficiency is about the same for rural users.
    So the rest is charges to cover no electrical usage.
    Home users are charged $16 for the utility connection (faculty charge).
    That covers the cost of providing the transformer, pole and other equipment,
    and it's maintenance.
    First 750KWH is $0.076 per KWH.
    That is electricity plus line usage charge.

    $0.076, -0.022 = $0.053 per Kw hour, or the majority of the money.
    (ie) Helps pay for the repairs and upkeep to the transmission system you are
    using.
    If you don't use any power, you don't utilize any transmission system,
    so you don't have to pay for it, if you do use it.

    Next 750 KWH is $0.055 per KWH
    You have already paid your share of the line cost to get electricity to your
    house, so that portion starts to go down.
    $0.055 - $0.022 = $0.033 per KWH.

    Over 1.5 MWH is $0.0465 Per KWH.

    $0.0465 - $0.022 = $0.0245 per KWH.
    The line usage portion is about equal to the cost of the electricity from
    there on up.
    The government spends money, don't they?
    If you use that extra $100 to keep yourself alive, or buy what ever you want
    to spend it on, then yes, that is part of the energy cost in producing that
    panel. Because you have to be alive to produce the panel, or it won't get
    produced. And you have to get some profit to spend on other stuff, or you
    will no longer see a reason to produce the panel, so it won't be produced.
    So, without that energy spent, then the panel won't get produced.
    To try to make that statement, means that you don't get the point. It's a
    mater of perspective. The energy that is consumed for the other person to
    buy the panels includes the price that you paid, plus the extra that you
    tagged on. So he is basically paying the energy cost for your wind turbine
    and the solar panels. But to him, the energy cost of the panels is $100,000.
    He can't tell that only $80,000 is actually covering the energy cost of the
    panels, and that the extra $20,000 is actually going to be spend on
    something else.
    http://www.maine.gov/bgs/energy/2003/Requirements6.doc

    "2.5.2.2 Mercury vapor lamps shall be replaced with metal halide or
    high-pressure sodium lamps of equal or greater light output, but fewer
    watts."

    If they ban Mercury vapor, then they definitely should band MH because it
    waste a lot more energy than MV lamps.

    Look over....
    "3.5.6 Fluorescent Lamps and Ballasts"

    Notice that if you do not have T8 lamps, (except for limited situations) you
    will not meet code.
    If you have and older ballast, you will have to change it before it's end of
    life.

    There is a lot more where that came from, but I don't have all year to quote
    all them to you.
    That is the problem.

    That doesn't have any effect on the statement I made.
    The GDP is measuring money flowing through all links of the economy.
    If you have an economy that have five links in the chain, and all money
    flows through one point. Then the total GDP will be five times the money
    flowing through the primary point. But all money still goes through the
    primary point sooner or later.
    Either supply must go up, or price must go up until demand stops climbing.
    I am use to being in the minority.:)
     
  17. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Correction..... :)
    That doesn't have any effect on the statement I made.
     
  18. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Not necessarily. How much energy is consumed when capital equipment is

    Let me expand on that just a bit.
    In terms of a government taxation on a company in energy terms.

    The company earns the right to consume energy, or products containing
    energy, by selling products, or services. They charge the customers "energy
    credits" for the energy required to provide the product to them.
    (ie) They earn money.

    The government doesn't put any penalties on energy that the company uses to
    self to stay alive.
    (ie) operating cost.

    The government puts penalties on (they want a part of) unused "energy
    credits" that have been collected, and energy containing products that was
    purchased with those "energy credits" that is not needed to keep the company
    running.
    (ie) Free money, and products that won't be used by the company to stay
    alive.

    Depreciation is a scam the government pulled off on the industry, but that
    is besides the point.
    In this application, it can put in energy terms.

    Go back to that $10,000 refrigeration unit I referred to earlier.
    Remember that I stated that the life was 10 years, and the money wasted to
    have one was $1000 a year. One tenth of it's life is wasted a year. In 10
    years, it's life is gone, and it's worth no energy. It's value has been
    consumed, and it will carry no value to anyone.

    The government, in their shallow wisdom, has put an arbitrary life span of 7
    years on equipment. To them, when you buy a piece of equipment, then you
    haven't actually spent the money on the business yet. You can still trade
    the machine for it's original value in money. So the taxes for free, unused
    money, will still apply. And as it's value is consumed by each passing year,
    then they classify that energy value as being irrevocably lost into, used by
    that company to operate. And money that is used to stay alive, is not taxed
    in the same way, so they give money (energy credits) back because it is no
    longer part of the energy that they can claim a right to.
    Basically, it's just the government saying that they won't take away part of
    the energy you earned a right to use, if you give that "energy credit" to
    someone else to use to earn more energy credits. Because, in the end, the
    other person that is now earning a lot of "energy credits" (money) from
    using the "energy credits" that he got off you to by energy, so he will have
    paid you back, and given the government far more in in "energy credits" than
    the government lost when it said it wouldn't take your "energy rights"

    Basically along the same lines as, you got to have energy to get energy, or
    the right to use energy.

    Basically they don't want to take a chunk out of your "money" that you use
    to pay for energy credits that you borrowed. They think that if you can use
    that extra energy to earn more energy, to pay back your "energy debt"
    faster, then you will en up giving them more energy credits to put into
    something else, in the long run. Like energy to build fighter jets. Or fuel
    to power those jets.

    In the end, money is just an energy credit.
     
  19. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    I will expand the subject.
    (A big expansion!!!!!!!)

    I will cover the way power flows through society.
    I will cover how you are forming a parasitic power loop.
    And I will cover how to slow the flow of power.

    This is an energy economy
    Money is just a token that holds an energy value.
    And it has always been an energy economy.
    Food is an energy source, and farmers create energy (food from sun light)

    In an energy economy, you have the source, from which all things run.
    The things that run off the energy source, sell back stuff made with that
    energy, to keep the source running.
    The stores sell stuff to people to live, and pay the energy source for
    energy to run.
    The people work to earn money from the factory, to pay the store, and pay
    the energy source to keep the house warm.
    Factories use products, and sell stuff to the energy source to keep the
    energy source running, in tern buying energy to operate.

    The energy source takes all that money coming in from each link in the chain
    to buy stuff from the factory to keep producing energy.

    If the energy source can produce twice as much energy with the equipment and
    the price of the equipment stays the same, then he will sell energy at half
    the price.
    You may say that won't work, because he can just keep charging the same
    amount.
    Yes he can.
    But he will be buying stuff that isn't needed, which is what it will cost to
    keep the energy source running (keep him happy), then that mean that he isn't
    producing twice the energy with the same equipment. He is still producing as
    much energy from the same amount of stuff that is required to keep him
    going.
    He is still consuming as much of his own energy coming back to him in the
    form of products, as he was before.

    As long as the energy source can produce the same amount of energy that it
    took to produce it, that loop will remain operational. And there will plenty
    of energy to produce all the little intricate sub loops that stretch out
    from the source.

    Like people working at a factory to produce Lego blocks, that they buy with
    the money they earned working for the factory that produced Lego blocks. The
    energy source can run without the factory building Lego blocks, but the
    factory, and the person can not live without the energy source. That sub
    loop is being feed by the primary energy loop. Where do you think people are
    getting money to pay the power company?
    It must come from people that work to keep the power company going.

    People may say that the only energy cost in the generating equipment is the
    energy it took at the foundry to produce it. But it takes the entire
    community to support the foundry and the people that work there. The money
    will work it's way out to the community, and into sub loops, until it
    finally goes back through the primary loop, which is the power loop that
    feeds the system.

    The formula for the price of power is simple. If a machine that cost $1
    produces 10 watts of energy in it's life time. Then the electricity cost
    $0.1 a watt. If it takes 1 watt of energy to produce a machine, then 9 watts
    of energy will be burnt up in the sub loops, until that final 1 watt of
    energy is put back into a machine that will produce 10 more watts. All items
    in the sub loops will have an equivalent energy cost of 1 watt for every
    $0.1. If something cost $0.3 to buy, then it used 3 watts from the source.
    link one used one watt of energy to mine the materials, link two paid link
    one $0.1 for those materials, and used one watt of energy to refine those
    materials. Link three paid link two $0.2 for the refined materials and used
    one watt of energy to make it into a tool. Link four buys that tool for $0.3
    which cost 3 watts of energy. And he paid for that tool with money he got
    working for the link that produced the power unit that supplies all the
    energy to the system, the link that produced the power unit uses 1 watt of
    energy to build the unit, and hires three people, that it pays $0.3 each to
    build the unit. Total energy cost to build the unit, $1

    It always cost as much energy to keep the energy source running as the
    energy source produces.

    If all the sub loops take up to much power too provide the equipment to keep
    the source running, then the source can't get enough money off of the energy
    it sells to produce the power to keep the system running.
    Thus, the cost of power will go up, and that will shed extraneous sub loops,
    it will keep going up until the money from the power going out will buy the
    equipment used to produce the electricity

    All right, now what happen if you throw two energy sources into the mix.

    Lets use one source to form a primary loop.
    Lets use energy from one energy source to bread the new secondary energy
    loop..
    In this case, a link that produces the equipment to sell the power company
    to make power, uses some of the money to buy equipment to make power for
    himself.

    The power company buys the solar panels for $100K. The other is you that got
    the windmill from the extra $20K that the power company gave you for the
    solar panels. If the power company is the only one to sell to the community,
    then the energy that he sells to the community will reflect cost that he put
    into the system. His apparent energy cost to produce the power to the
    system, will be greater and it will cost the people that use off of him,
    more. Because it is taking more of his own power to get his panels to
    produce the power to sell the community. It will be the power that he
    produced, that will produce the windmill. The power loop formed by the
    windmill is parasitic to the primary productive power loop that feeds the
    community. If you had only charged him $80K, then the community would only
    be paying 80% of what they are now. That means that there is only 80% of the
    power that can be used throughout the system as there could have been.
    To the community, that mean more of the power that's generated, needs to go
    back into the power source to keep it running. But to the person that got
    the windmill for a little bit of labor installing some solar panels, then
    energy used to acquire the windmill was cheep. That is because it wasn't his
    energy that was used to make the system. It took $100K of energy to provide
    power for the community. 20K was parasitic loop that doesn't support it's
    self at first, 80K was to the primary loop that went to supporting the
    community.

    The person that got the windmill, gets $20K worth, imposed a direct energy
    load on the system. That windmill took 20K worth of power off of the power
    company's system to make.

    Now it's time for a parasitic loop to support it's self.
    If the parasitic loop starts to sell power to the community, then he will be
    able to buy another wind mill (made with his own power) to produce power
    when that the first one quits. And then the loop is no longer a parasitic
    loop. It is a self supporting loop, that no longer provide a hidden load on
    the community. Anyone that buys equipment to produce power with money the
    earned from the existing power supply (economy), is posing a direct load on
    the power supply, that doesn't help the power supply. You may as well bought
    a bunch of bricks for all they care. The turn around comes when the
    parasitic source turns around and feeds to the community to self support it's
    self.

    There is no difference between a brick and a windmill, before the windmill
    produces power. Either way, it increased the total energy impact to the
    primary loop, to produce the source to feed the loop.

    Now lets look at your case.
    What makes it most interesting in your case is the fact that neither of the
    powers sources were being bought to produce power for the primary source.
    Both loops are secondary parasitic loops. Actually, one loop is a parasitic
    of a parasitic loop. Anyone that buys a piece of power generating equipment
    is making a parasitic power loop. The money he got, trickled down from the
    energy source. He had $100k worth of energy. He spent that to get a power
    source, but in the process of getting a power source, someone used the money
    from his loop that was just starting, and made a third loop. To the primary
    loop, it took 100K to start the secondary loop. To the secondary loop, it
    took $20K to start the third loop. Power to create both loops came from the
    primary loop.

    The first parasitic loop took $100K worth of power.
    The secondary parasitic loop took $20K worth of power.

    Some people, like you, said that that would mean that the total impact for
    the two systems would be $120k.
    No, power doesn't flow like that. You each, represent a node in the network.
    Power flows from one node to another. Power can only flow in series from him
    to you. He is spending energy, you are receiving it. If there was a third
    link that both of you was consuming off of, then you two would be in
    parallel. But the link both you would be feeding off of, is producing $120K
    worth.
    But in this case, he feeds you $100k you feed the windmill maker $20K, and
    the solar panel maker $80k.In a parallel circuit feeding from you. In the
    end, it cost him $100k in energy to get the panels. The panels only cost
    $80K, but getting the panels from you cost $100k. If he left you out of the
    circuit, and got the panels directly from the node that you got them, then
    it would of only cost him $80K and you would of never had $20K to buy a
    windmill. A windmill that would of never been built. And $20K of energy that
    would of never been used. Getting the panels from you, increased the energy
    used to get the panels by $20K

    And if you say, "Well.. He will just spend it on something else that cost
    power to make"
    You are correct.
    Power will always find it's way through the loop, and come back to the
    source.
    The question is how fast it travels through the loop.
    The longer it takes for it to travel around the loop, the less energy is
    consumed. The longer you hold onto the money (energy), before sending it on
    down the line, the slower fuel (energy) will be consumed.

    The way to reduce total power in the system, is to reduce the speed at which
    it travels through each node in the circuit. If a device you own, takes less
    money (energy) to operate, then you will end up getting a back log of money
    (energy credits). You are forming a resistance to the power flow. You will
    start to consume less money off of the circuitry upstream, and thus total
    power flow (energy used by society) will be reduced. Anything that increases
    the rate at which money is spent by any one node in the energy network of
    society, will never reduce the power consumed by society.

    Does that make things clearer?
     
  20. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    (Note that these cost accounting schemes are all legal and ethical, and
    You just don't grasp it.
    No mater WHAT accounting and labor figuring the company uses to arrive at a
    cost, is irrelevant.
    When company A sells the small widget for a $1 it means they have a dollar
    to spend on stuff to keep the company running. If people only buy big
    widgets for $2 then the company will get a surplus that will be spend
    somewhere.

    If you buy small widgets from company A for a $1, and big widgets from
    company B for $1.80, then you will end up with the lest energy impact to
    produce those products.

    If everyone did that, then company A would have to find a way to produces
    only small widgets for a $1, which means they will waste less on other
    unneeded stuff (reducing the impact producing it), or they will end up
    increasing the cost to $1,20
    All the errors I have seen you try to impose on it, are totally irrelevant
    to the accounting system.

    It's like complaining that you can't have fluid in the tires of a farm
    tractor, because it will make it impossible to properly balance the tires
    for high speed operation.

    Correct.

    But that is irrelevant to the operations of the tractor. It can't achieve
    high speeds.
    You just don't grasp it.
    That does not affect the equation.
    Which is used to produce products, and then handle those products, or
    perform services which use energy.
    But someone had to pay you enough to get the heat to keep yourself warm.
    That is irrelevant.
    The product you made will carry the cost for the gas that you used. The cost
    in energy to produce that product is the amount of gas to keep you warm.
    The energy has been lost, but the money from the energy supplier has to make
    it's way back to you, for you to buy another cubic foot of gas to burn. The
    line of people from the person that bought the product off you, to the
    energy supplier, will all have to foot the cost for that cubic foot of gas
    you burned. A small amount of money that can't be spent by someone else to
    buy a cubic foot of gas.
    When it is going back to the energy supplier, it is being lost from the
    system. Destroyed as far as you and me are concerned.

    If I pay someone $10 to cut my hair, and they spend $5 of it on electricity,
    then half of it is permanently gone from the economy. He spends $5 on hair
    supply products. The hair supply products cost $2.5 in electricity to make,
    so there is only $2.5 left in the economy from the money I put in. the
    employee that makes the hair care products needs $2.5 in electricity to stay
    alive, so nothing is left in the economy.
    That money is permanently lost until it is re spent by the energy maker. In
    the exact opposite sum as the energy they make.

    If the energy maker doesn't buy anything with that money, then there will
    never be any money reenter the economy to by energy. And the energy maker
    will cease to exist because his equipment will finally stop running, so
    there will be no economy.
    The heat is still there, you just can't use it, Energy is never lost. It is
    just not in the system.
    The power source is there to put energy in the system to replace what is
    lost out of the system.

    And by putting energy into the system, they consume money out of the system.
    Which they put back into the system on the opposed side of the system. So,
    in reality, they are the source of money and energy.
    There is plenty of codes on the book that affect normal people.
    I will dig through and find a good list of them for you.
    I know New Mexico has a ton of them

    BTW, just because that doesn't directly apply to everyone, doesn't mean that
    it don't have an affect on everyone.
     
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