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90 amps for electric car charge!

B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by
either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging
rate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/business/15electric.html
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
? <[email protected]> ?????? ??? ??????
Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge"
connection...http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in
hybrid
vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services
by
either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their
charging
rate...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric
Car...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/business/15electric.html


<snip>
Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car
battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have
to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put
the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of
course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and
transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an
ICE with gasoline...
 
B

bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
And again, this is an example of comparing apples to oranges. These
electric vehicles are relatively small cars. And they should be
compared to similar size fuel efficient cars, not the average gas
vehicle. There are lots of car choices getting 30 city, 45 highway
or better. The Toyota Prius gets 51 city 48 highway giving a fuel
cost of about $12. Here in the northeast with electric at 17c kwh,
and using your above math, the fuel cost on the Prius vs the electric
is a wash here.

But I bet the Prius is a far more drivable vehicle, capable of higher
sustained highway speeds, etc. and doesn't have the obvious drawbacks
for the user that the electric car has.

Interesting choice for comparison since the Prius is a hybrid (partly
electric) car. It is likely to include an option to charge the
(relatively small) battery off the grid in the not-too-distant future.

From what little I have seen, the Tesla is a sports car - high
acceleration, probably better high speed behavior.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote: said:
The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated
someplace. In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg
where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. But
for most of the country, the power today still has to come from
conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from
one place to another.

Moving the pollution from one place to another is, in itself, a laudable goal;
seen what the air looks like in LA or Chicago recently?
And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure
what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a
gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the
electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses,
etc.

You're overlooking a few points in favor of the electric cars. First off, by
concentrating the emissions at the power plant, the air quality in most major
cities will be tremendously improved. Second, again by concentrating the
emissions in one place, it's easier to scrub them; one power plant producing
the electricity to power a million electric cars will likely produce much less
pollution than a million cars with internal combustion engines. Third, one
large power plant has the potential for economies of scale that a million
point sources lack. Fourth, and perhaps most important, the internal
combustion engine is terribly inefficient, since it derives all its power from
the mechanical energy of the expanding exhaust gases and wastes all of the
heat; coal-fired power plants are *far* more efficient.
 
B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
I see a nice marketing opportunity for SquareD, et al, to bring out
lines of 300A service panels to replace the ubiquitous 200A now in
every chalet or hut.

No, no, no!

Dad's car, mom's car, son's car, daughter's car = 360 amps additional to the
current 200 amp service or 560 amps give or take...

(Forget about the eight is enough family!)

And how about a 400 car parking garage downtown, each space with a 90 amp
circuit?
 
R

Rich.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

It's a 90A Circuit Breaker. However, the maximum current for the vehicle is
70A, as set by the duty cycle of the Pilot waveform.
At 240v that is 16.8 kw*4 to do a full charge, or 67.2 kw total. At the
national average of $.12 per kw that is about $8 ($.04/mile) for a full
charge to drive those 200 or so miles. This is about 1/3 the cost to drive
an average gas vehicle at 20 MPG and $2.60 per gallon.
 
S

Stormin Mormon

Jan 1, 1970
0
When I go camping, I bring my zero emissions
electric heater for my tent. I plug it into the
generator that burns oil, and pumps out carbon
monoxide. But, the heater is zero emissions.

Same deal with the car. Except that manufacturing
of the car pollutes, and that the batteries
eventually have to be thrown out, and, and, and.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..




The second big omission is that you always hear
the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true
only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has
to be generated
someplace.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Build more nuke plants and have CLEAN power plants, clean electric cars,
clean electric homes and clean air. When radiation free fission comes
out we an replace fusion in time. It's no reason not to kill coal and
oil now.

You have that incorrect and backwards. We're using fission power *now*; fusion
is still in the future. And it won't be radiation-free by any means.
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by
either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging
rate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/business/15electric.html


Sounds about right. There's no getting around the fact that it takes a
lot of energy to move a car, figure you typically need say 20 horsepower
at cruise on the highway, that's roughly 20kW assuming ~85% efficiency
of the motor and controller. That means about 20kWH per 60 miles of
range, and charging the batteries is not 100% efficient either. Whatever
energy you take out, you have to put back in and you can only pull 1.8kW
from a 15A 120V receptacle. 90A for four hours is about 86kWH, so
about 250 miles of highway cruising.
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated
someplace. In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg
where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. But
for most of the country, the power today still has to come from
conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from
one place to another. And possible introducing more, as I'm not sure
what the total energy/emissions balance looks like, ie burning a
gallon of gasoline in a car vs burning say coal to generate the
electricity, then sending it over a transmission system with losses,
etc.


Electric cars are certainly not the end-all be-all solution to our
problems, although they do offer advantages. A large stationary
generator operating steady at near full capacity is much more efficient
than a bunch of individual car engines, even if the generator is burning
fossil fuel. It also centralizes emissions in one place rather than
spewing nasty stuff into the stagnant air in city streets.

If the cost came down, I wouldn't mind having an electric commuter car.
I wouldn't get rid of my gasoline car, but for the 16 miles a day I
commute, something that could go 40 miles on an overnight charge would
let me go to work and back and have enough range to go get some lunch.
 
B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California
with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's
which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California
no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their
backyard.

If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting
to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid.
Neighborhood nukes?

Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one
neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company
transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge
them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their
AC and everything else going full blast???

Neighborhood Nuclear Power...
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html
 
T

The Daring Dufas

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Is your garage electric car ready?

Seems these cars can be charged with a regular 15 amp outlet, any 240 volt
outlet (50 amps best), or a 90 amp "4 hour charge" connection...
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) describes a system in which electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by
either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging
rate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Cities Prepare for Life With the Electric Car...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/business/15electric.html

The last one is a good example of the law of unintended results.

TDD
 
G

George

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California
with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's
which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California
no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their
backyard.

If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting
to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid.
Neighborhood nukes?

Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one
neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company
transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge
them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their
AC and everything else going full blast???

Neighborhood Nuclear Power...
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html
Aren't you assuming worst case? I think a lot of diversity will be
involved. Many would likely just use a longer term lower current draw
charge.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Also, the compare can't be made to a internal combustion engine car
getting 20MPG. The electric cars are very small cars. So, it should
be compared to cars getting 35-40 MPG. You can get a bluetec
Mercedes diesel in that range that is a real car. There are plenty
of other small cars capable of that mpg too, So assuming 35mpg, I
could drive at least 175 miles in a simlar car for the same $15 in
energy cost. And those electric energy costs are largely derived
from cheap coal from existing plants which are not particularly
clean. If we're to build anything remotely clean, ( think carbon
sequestration) you can expect the future energy prices to be way
higher. Unless we come up for a solution on how to make the
electricity, you can't begin to compare costs moving forward.

That solution's already here: nuclear.
 
T

Tony

Jan 1, 1970
0
George said:
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in
California
with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new
TV's
which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In
California
no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their
backyard.

If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be
interesting
to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid.
Neighborhood nukes?

Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one
neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company
transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all
recharge
them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have
their
AC and everything else going full blast???

Neighborhood Nuclear Power...
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html
Aren't you assuming worst case? I think a lot of diversity will be
involved. Many would likely just use a longer term lower current draw
charge.

And a lot more people would be going to off peak rates so they don't
start to recharge until people are going to bed.
 
T

The Daring Dufas

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Well I'm getting out my popcorn to sit back and watch the show in California
with this. They [California] had a fit with everyone buying those new TV's
which use a bit more energy. (Overloading the electric grid.) In California
no one wants any new major electric transmission lines built in their
backyard.

If quite a few people buy these cars in California, it will be interesting
to see what they do when it places a strain on their electric grid.
Neighborhood nukes?

Or for that matter if there was a concentration of these new cars in one
neighborhood anywhere. Say 3 homes all on the same electric company
transformer. Then all 3 homes get electric vehicles, and they all recharge
them at 6:00 pm when they get home on a hot summer day, and also have their
AC and everything else going full blast???

Neighborhood Nuclear Power...
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/about.html

I remember the Toshiba Corporation small reactor project for Alaska. I
wonder how it's going?

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/advanced/4s.html

TDD
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
? <[email protected]> ?????? ??? ??????
===========================================================================­=============

Noticing that in the USA and also the UK the discussion about electric
vehicles so often mentions the production of electrcity by burning
natural gas, oil, or god forbid, coal definitely being the most
polluting, as witnessed by the UK getting rid of much of it's coal
burning by the 1960s, after several hundred years of industrial
production based on coal.

Only recently, heard once again, that old Yorkshire (England)
expression which use the slang word "brass" for money! Which says
"Where there's muck (industrial dirt, smoke, smog etc.) there's brass
(money)"!

But there are many parts of the world that use hydro generated and or
more locally generated electrcity from wind power, solar etc. There
are for example some individual homes, in one part of Germany (that
country being presumably not as sunny as say the southern USA?) that
produce more electrcity from solar etc. than they consume. And by law,
there, it can be sold back into the public electric system. This does
mean, by the way, that there will not be times, when the roast is in
oven and the clothes dryer and/or clothes washer are operating they
will 'draw electricity from the grid'. But on an overall net basis
they put more energy from their built features such as solar cells,
back into the system, than they draw!

In this particular part of Canada we use about 95%, soon to be 100%,
electrcity generated by hydro. Which then gets into discussion about
whether hydro generation IS truly 'green', or not!

But trying to knock down the electric car argument by always
'assuming' that generating electricity involves some sort of 'muck' is
incorrect. Electrcity from hydro generation in north eastern Canada,
e.g. 'Churchill Falls', the planned 'Lower Churchill River Project' in
Newfoundland - Labrador, 'James Bay' in northern Quebec etc. already
powers New York via connecting high voltage transmission lines.
Certain types of transmission line can also be run under the sea.

However having said that; the OP seems to be a link to some very
expensive plugs and cords?

Looking at the third example in the link, $600 for what appears to be
a plug, a special socket and a length of possibly 10 AWG flex seems
very expensive!!!!!!! The plug in the $600 kit for, example, looks
identical to the 30/50 amp plug on the 230 volt 4800 watt garage
heater that we bought recently, complete with plug and cord for less
than $70, including sales tax! And which we plug into the 230 volt
welder outlet in our garage to provide auxiliary heat in cold weather
while working on a vehicle. Even to 'make up' that plug/wire/socket
combination, even allowing that the special plug into the vehicle
might cost say $30, could probably be done for around $60 or less?

Some of the preliminary calculations seem to indicate that even in
this cold climate, where batteries do not function as well as in
warmer climes, an electric vehicle, for the mileage and distances that
this retiree drives could be highly practical!
And here where gasoline, for example, now costs, more than a dollar
litre (Roughly 3.8 litres to a US gallon) so we are talking at least
$4 per gallon, for regular; and where a 20 mile per gallon vehicle
costs say 20 cents per mile, for gasoline alone, the electric
equivalent, seeing that our domestic electricity cost is around 10
cents per kilowatt hour it could cost us 80 cents to one dollar to
completely recharge an electric car battery?

Your math is incorrect. Charging at 90amps, 240V for 4 hours is
86Kwh of electricity. At 10c a KWH that would be $8.60. Here in
NJ, at about 17c, it would be $15.

Also, the compare can't be made to a internal combustion engine car
getting 20MPG. The electric cars are very small cars. So, it should
be compared to cars getting 35-40 MPG. You can get a bluetec
Mercedes diesel in that range that is a real car. There are plenty
of other small cars capable of that mpg too, So assuming 35mpg, I
could drive at least 175 miles in a simlar car for the same $15 in
energy cost. And those electric energy costs are largely derived
from cheap coal from existing plants which are not particularly
clean. If we're to build anything remotely clean, ( think carbon
sequestration) you can expect the future energy prices to be way
higher. Unless we come up for a solution on how to make the
electricity, you can't begin to compare costs moving forward.




That battery then giving
a range of say 60 miles for a cost of a couple of cents per mile. But
that seems, together with other savings too good to be true; and
probably is, whether one installs a suitable outlet in the garage or
not?
Oh, and BTW, not to mention situations when the vehicle's lights are on, or
when you need heating or even a/c;then the battery would be dead even
sooner. (Or just turn the car radio on).
 
D

David Nebenzahl

Jan 1, 1970
0
The second big omission is that you always hear the media gushing over
this cars as "zero emissions". Which is true only if you
conveniently ignore that all this power still has to be generated
someplace. In some small amount of cases today, it could be green, eg
where the car is charged at night using excess hydroelectric. But
for most of the country, the power today still has to come from
conventional fuels and all you're doing is moving the pollution from
one place to another.

This point can't be emphasized enough, as it's true that the pinhead
media always seems to get this one wrong and leaves the mistaken
impression that "green" electric cars run on pixie dust or some such.

Just last night I heard a local news report about recovering methane
from landfills for use as fuel. While this is a good thing overall, the
stupid reporter (or editor) got away with saying that this would reduce
carbon dioxide emissions! Of course this is totally untrue: while the
methane would be captured instead of simply venting to the atmosphere,
the carbon dioxide would be released later when it was burned. All
that's being done is delaying the release of the CO2. Sheesh; are we
*really* that much a nation of idiots?

Now, you and I are on opposite sides of this debate in lots of ways
concerning the overall viability of renewable energy, nuclear power,
etc. But I agree 100% with you here. Such stupid oversights on the part
of the media (and even on the part of some who promote green energy) can
only set things back.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tzortzakakis said:
? <[email protected]> ?????? ??? ??????



<snip>
Yeah, I've read in a german magazine (www.spiegel.de) that even the best car
battery has no more energy than 2 pints of gas. To become viable, they have
to be 3 times as good and 3 times as cheap. Not to mention, that if you put
the pedal to the metal, the bat will drain in very little time. And of
course, it's worse efficiency to burn coal, generate electricity and
transmit, distribute it etc. over 5-6 transformation stages than using an
ICE with gasoline...

'Worse efficiency' but it could still cost less to the consumer. And
not all electricity comes from coal.

daestrom
 
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