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8051 on-chip debugging

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Schueler, Mar 25, 2011.

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  1. Arlet Ottens

    Arlet Ottens Guest

    The commercial IDEs/compilers also take time to learn, so there's not
    much difference. Some of the IDEs are also very poorly made, such as
    Microchip's MPLAB.

    I've programmed H8, AVR, various ARM flavors, x86, MIPS, and PIC, all
    using GCC. The time invested in learning the GCC tricks has paid off
    multiple times.
     
  2. Guest

    You got that right!
    Bingo. Spaghetti doesn't even start to describe it. There is a *ton* of dead
    code in there too. The device is trivial, but firmware isn't my call. I do
    hardware.
    You're preaching to the choir.
    When the owner of the company says he wants to do something his way, he gets
    to. I'm not going to argue about firmware. I get to do enough of that with
    just the hardware.
    Yup. That's one reason I don't do code anymore. I have a severe case of
    xenocryptophobia. ;-)
     
  3. Nowhere near.
    Well, piece of advice: before you _repeat_ such claims, after having
    been challenged about them twice, by two different people, maybe you
    should go check on your facts first.
    Aren't pragmas.
    It's nowhere near _that_ bad.
    Then you just do that. The tools know how to deal with the trickiness
    this entails. Better than you do, anyway.
     
  4. Nico Coesel

    Nico Coesel Guest

    There is no project manager so tell me where I should send the money
    if I use Eclipse.
     
  5. Guest

    No USB.
    I used their parametric search, clicked UART, USB, and I2C. I only see 28 and
    32 pin packages. "Dig I/O" bar only shows between 21 and 25 I/Os.
     
  6. Nico Coesel

    Nico Coesel Guest

    In that case I'd go for TI's MSP430. I've used those for a while for
    various projects.
     
  7. Dombo

    Dombo Guest

    Op 26-Mar-11 22:17, Nico Coesel schreef:
    Unless your time is worth nothing the purchase price of a tool is only a
    (small) part of its total cost.
     
  8. Nico Coesel

    Nico Coesel Guest

    Then show me a tool which doesn't require time to learn how to use it.


    Eclipse being free doesn't mean it is bad. Eclipse is funded by huge
    companies like Nokia, IBM, SAP, Oracle, etc, etc. Its most certainly
    not a hobby project. Eclipse has been specifically designed to aid
    software engineers developing complex pieces of software. There are
    many different IDEs and the majority of them are not very productive
    to work with.

    For most compiler vendors the IDE is not part of their core business
    so they invest as little as possible in developing their IDE. Note
    that many have already moved to Eclipse or will do so in the near
    future.

    Semiconductor manufacturers like to show off with simple IDEs to win
    customers for their microcontrollers. Don't get fooled by shimmering
    beads and mirrors. At some point you will want to take software
    development to a next level and you'll find the simple IDE to be
    inadequate (=time wasted on learning how to use it). Or you'll move to
    a different platform (=time wasted on learning how to use the specific
    IDE).

    The whole point of Eclipse is to learn once and use it for all
    languages on all platforms. The same goes for GCC (and binutils). GCC
    works the same for all targets. If you know how to use GCC for an
    MSP430 you know for 99.9% how to compile for LPC2000.
     
  9. Guest

    ...but it's such a neat tool! ;-)
    It finds it fine if you click on USB MCUs, too. Dumb site.

    I'll certainly look into it as a replacement for the Atmel part we're using.
    $99 for the Dev Kit is certainly reasonable, too. Thanks!
     
  10. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    Depends how you value your time.
     
  11. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    This is complete crap.
    Again crap and conjecture not based on reality.
    Iagree... This is why most silicon vendors do a GGC compiler so it is
    "free" to use their MCU's. They don't give a damn about GCC or Open
    source they just want the cheapest possible start up cost to get their
    silicon in use.
    In what way?
    The answer to that is "badly"
     
  12. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    Ok so you have one person wanting to use the Keil compiler with eclipse.
    However I can probably fined many more who tell me Eclipse is crap.

    You said: IDE is not part of their core business so they invest as
    little as possible in developing their IDE

    Which is complete crap. In fact Keil developed the IDE for their ARM
    compilers BEFORE they did the compiler.

    It would help if you could stop to read what was written. Freescale,
    NXP, Renasas etc are silicon compnaies and are looking for the least
    expensive way of getting the cheapest tools packaged with their silicon
    to get people to try and use their silicon.

    When they have decided on the silicon it is expected they will move on
    to professional tools. The Tools packaged with the silicon are usually
    coasted out of the marketing budget. A necessary evil

    The problem is GCC, Linux and Eclipse tend to come with a religion
    transplant that removes all engineering common sense.
     
  13. Dombo

    Dombo Guest

    Op 27-Mar-11 1:55, Nico Coesel schreef:
    Strawman strategy. I never claimed that a tool (commercial or free)
    doesn't require time to learn how to use it. I only claimed that the
    purchase price is only part of its total cost. Therefore one should not
    only look at its purchase price but also consider the time it takes to
    get up to speed with it and the eventual productivity. And those factors
    are certainly not equal for every tool.

    I'm not saying that free tools costs more, just that it is not
    self-evident that free tools cost less than commercial tools when you
    look at the whole picture. Considering how much a manweek costs compared
    to the purchase price of most tools, the purchase price should be in
    most cases only a minor consideration.
    Strawman strategy. I never claimed it was.
     
  14. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    That is the same in every industry.
    That is not true by a LONG way.
    No. Silicon vendors put as little effort as possible in to developing
    these tools It comes of their profit line

    If you say so... I do know several people who costed it out and came to
    the opposite conclusion.
    I didn't say that at all. I use Open Source tools my self. I am just
    not a fanatic about it.
     
  15. He has none, just anecdotes, because it is, I gather,

    *illegal to publish benchmarks of commercial compilers*.

    What have they got to hide I wonder?

    The one I remember is this notorious example

    <http://www.compuphase.com/dhrystone.htm>

    Here it seems Keil trashed GCC by comparing its output with
    theirs. Without mentioning theirs had opimization turned on and gcc did
    not!!

    The only time I looked into it (on ARM) I found no significant
    difference when compiling small functions and tight loops (which was my
    focus when I needed to optimize something). There was a bigger
    difference with respect to library functions and floating point math.

    [...]
     
  16. Guest

    This is an extension of an existing product. The issue is to have minimum
    development investment. That, and the fact that he doesn't trust programmer's
    time estimates. ;-)/2
    I have enough problems dealing with other's hardware. Software?
    Forgetaboutit.
     
  17. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    In message <
    I know a company who bought the Raisionance (4 seats) According to
    them there were so many bugs and problems they went out and bought the
    Keil system to save the project. They said there was no comparison
    between the 2 systems.

    Also the Rasionance does not support anything like the same number of
    8051 parts.
     
  18. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    In message <
    I don't suppose you are a Senior Engineer Raisonance as the linked in
    entry for Bruno Richard says?
     
  19. Chris H

    Chris H Guest

    No interest in Hitex other than I used to work for them over 6 years
    ago.

    I can supply many compilers myself (over half a dozen brands including
    GCC and Keil)
    I worked or many years as an Engineer using Keil compilers. I have used
    them in depth on real high integrity development and know personally
    many others who are pushing the 8051 family to it's limits.

    We have also validated compilers for safety critical use.

    However recently I have had to give support to some one with the
    Resonance 8051 compilers who switched to Keil in mid project because of
    the problems. I expect Bruno will be familiar with them. Though I don't
    think this is the place to detail all the problems or the client.
     
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