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50 hz timer motor

Ron, on the timer sequence diagram, it shows the pre-wash, wash, rinse,
extra rinse, spin, dry and stop events, but not the drain event. If
it's a timed event, I would expect that on the event sequence. Or
unless it's implied/built-in under the wash and rinse events??
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron, on the timer sequence diagram, it shows the pre-wash, wash, rinse,
extra rinse, spin, dry and stop events, but not the drain event. If
it's a timed event, I would expect that on the event sequence. Or
unless it's implied/built-in under the wash and rinse events??


Ron(UK) wrote:

Yes, I expect it`s just regarded as the last phase of each cycle except
spin when the pump runs throughout that cycle on most (but not all [1])
washing machines.

As far as I know, any problem in the drain/heat/temp sensing department
would prolong the cycle times not shorten them. Unfortunately, the only
real way to prove a timer is to replace it with a known good one, which
would appear to be out of the question in your case.

I spent over 20 years repairing laundry appliances for a living, it`s
been about 4 years since I gave up, folks these days tend to be cajoled
into buying an extended warranty with their new machines in exchange for
a very low ticket price. Here, washing machines, like most home
appliances are so cheap, it doesn`t make sense to invest money in any
machine over five years old. The microwave oven repairing side to my
business stopped almost overnight when local supermarkets started
selling ovens for £39.99. Similarly with VCR`s at £29.99!

[1] some machines switch the drain pump on and off during the final
spin, presumably to prevent some kind of cavitation or maintain enough
water in the sump hose to keep the pump draining effectively

Ron(UK)
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
I spent over 20 years repairing laundry appliances for a living, it`s
been about 4 years since I gave up, folks these days tend to be cajoled
into buying an extended warranty with their new machines in exchange for
a very low ticket price. Here, washing machines, like most home
appliances are so cheap, it doesn`t make sense to invest money in any
machine over five years old. The microwave oven repairing side to my
business stopped almost overnight when local supermarkets started
selling ovens for £39.99. Similarly with VCR`s at £29.99!

[1] some machines switch the drain pump on and off during the final
spin, presumably to prevent some kind of cavitation or maintain enough
water in the sump hose to keep the pump draining effectively


Over here top loaders are cheap, starting at around $200 but front
loaders still command quite a premium. They start at about $600 and go
up from there. An imported brand is usually around $1000+ so it's well
worth repairing.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
James said:
Over here top loaders are cheap, starting at around $200 but front
loaders still command quite a premium. They start at about $600 and go
up from there. An imported brand is usually around $1000+ so it's well
worth repairing.

How odd, exactly the opposite here, tho these days top loaders are
pretty rare , top loaders are less economical and as most UK households
have their washer in the kitchen it has to fit under a worktop.
The only decent top loader available in the UK was the Hotpoint which to
the best of my knowledge isnt made anymore, and they cheapened that so
much it went from a super machine into an unrelaible nightmare.

Our throwaway society has really hammered the repair industry, even
secondhand stores are closing, I used to make a substantial proportion
of my income servicing and repairing items for those guys. These days
one has to specialise, I concentrate on professional sound equipment.

Ron(UK)
 
Ron,

What is your repair experience with the system board (called power card
on the Brandt BR1000) where the cycling motor modules, speed potent
module, extra rinse module all converge, on a washing machine? Have
you needed to replace it? Wonder if the 50hz/60hz issue would affect
the electronics.

Ron(UK) wrote:
On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a
pair
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
How odd, exactly the opposite here, tho these days top loaders are
pretty rare , top loaders are less economical and as most UK households
have their washer in the kitchen it has to fit under a worktop.
The only decent top loader available in the UK was the Hotpoint which to
the best of my knowledge isnt made anymore, and they cheapened that so
much it went from a super machine into an unrelaible nightmare.


Top loaders are simple, so they're cheaper to produce and also less
efficient so they cost more to operate. Probably only more expensive to
buy over there because they're imported. Honestly I'm not sure why
anyone would want one, after owning a front loader for even a relatively
short time I can tell it's vastly superior, much quieter, holds more
laundry, uses less detergent and water, and the clothes come out cleaner
and less tangled. They do seem to be gaining popularity so obviously I'm
not the only one who's noticed that.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron,

What is your repair experience with the system board (called power card
on the Brandt BR1000) where the cycling motor modules, speed potent
module, extra rinse module all converge, on a washing machine? Have
you needed to replace it? Wonder if the 50hz/60hz issue would affect
the electronics.

They are called modules here, and generally control just the main motor
speed, If the machine uses a brush type motor, it`s a simple triac
chopper circuit, getting feedback from a tacho generator on the rear of
the motor. Some induction motors are also controlled this way.
Machines with a solid state timer - so called computer washers - often
have the triacs on the board to control the water valves and pump, and
relays for the motor direction and heater circuit and a triac to operate
the heat pause coil on the timer (I`m thinking Hotpoint here).

They are generally pretty reliable, off the top of my head I recall most
faults being due to either solder cracks due to vibration or heater
relay contacts burnt. if the heat pause triac went leaky the coil would
buzz and the machine either wouldn`t pause while the water heated or
would stick at that point. If the motor control triac failed the machine
would spin uncontrollably on all settings where the motor should be turning.

I guess 60hz could affect a microprocessor controlled machine, I`m not
really sure as the problem doesn't often come up.

Ron (UK)
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
They are called modules here, and generally control just the main motor
speed, If the machine uses a brush type motor, it`s a simple triac
chopper circuit, getting feedback from a tacho generator on the rear of
the motor. Some induction motors are also controlled this way.
Machines with a solid state timer - so called computer washers - often
have the triacs on the board to control the water valves and pump, and
relays for the motor direction and heater circuit and a triac to operate
the heat pause coil on the timer (I`m thinking Hotpoint here).

Heater circuit? Do they not just take in hot water from the central
tank? Seems odd to use expensive resistance heat to warm water when most
houses have cheaper (though not nearly as much so as it used to be) gas
hot water, or is natural gas expensive enough there to justify electric?
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
James said:
Top loaders are simple, so they're cheaper to produce and also less
efficient so they cost more to operate. Probably only more expensive to
buy over there because they're imported. Honestly I'm not sure why
anyone would want one, after owning a front loader for even a relatively
short time I can tell it's vastly superior, much quieter, holds more
laundry, uses less detergent and water, and the clothes come out cleaner
and less tangled. They do seem to be gaining popularity so obviously I'm
not the only one who's noticed that.

Well Hotpoint top loaders weren't so simple, there`s more engineering
in them (gearbox, agitator drive, clutch, much tougher bearings and
seals etc) and they were British made. People tended to be very
attached to their top loaders as they take a massive load compared to a
front loader, and at one time were very reliable. The down side - as you
say- is that they used a huge quantity of water and juice to heat it and
wouldn`t go under a work top. As time went on, the machines got
constructionally flimsier and more mechanically delicate, and individual
parts for major components like the gearbox were no longer avaiable, the
mabufacturers supplying only a complete power unit.

I used to hate working on them, but not as much as I hated Speed Queens!

Ron(UK)
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
James said:
Heater circuit? Do they not just take in hot water from the central
tank? Seems odd to use expensive resistance heat to warm water when most
houses have cheaper (though not nearly as much so as it used to be) gas
hot water, or is natural gas expensive enough there to justify electric?

They used to be hot and cold, but the domestic water isn`t hot enough
for washing without a boost from the machines element
Surprisingly most machines here are cold fill only these days. they take
in so little water on the wash program, the manufacturers claim it`s
more economical to heat it in the machine. Thats also the reason why
modern machines take so long compared to how they use to be.

Gas is a lot less expensive than electrikery when it comes to water heating.

Ron(UK)
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well Hotpoint top loaders weren't so simple, there`s more engineering
in them (gearbox, agitator drive, clutch, much tougher bearings and
seals etc) and they were British made. People tended to be very
attached to their top loaders as they take a massive load compared to a
front loader, and at one time were very reliable. The down side - as you
say- is that they used a huge quantity of water and juice to heat it and
wouldn`t go under a work top. As time went on, the machines got
constructionally flimsier and more mechanically delicate, and individual
parts for major components like the gearbox were no longer avaiable, the
mabufacturers supplying only a complete power unit.

I used to hate working on them, but not as much as I hated Speed Queens!


I wonder if they were any different than the HotPoint top loaders here?
There's three basic designs I run into, GE/HotPoint with the centrifugal
clutch driven water pump, belt drive Whirlpool with a wig-wag used to
shift the transmission, and the modern direct drive Whirlpool with a
rubber coupler between the motor and transmission rather than a belt.
Most top load washing machines are one of those three internally
regardless of the brand slapped on the outside and not much has changed,
you can still get parts for a 30 year old machine in most cases.

The front load stuff is all different though, the early machines from
the 70's were built much more like a standard domestic top loader using
a large induction motor and transmission with belts, the newer ones are
much more European and use a DC or brushless motor with a belt drive
directly to the drum. The Neptune I picked up recently uses a 3 phase
motor of some sort, there was nothing wrong with the motor itself so I
didn't dig into it so I'm not sure if it's permanent magnet like a
brushless motor or if it's an AC induction motor but I suspect the
former. I do know that the capacity of this washer is enormous, it fits
easily as much as my extra large Whirlpool top loader I had before and
with no agitator in the middle it's a lot easier to cram big stuff like
my bedspread in there. The thing I don't like about it however is it has
the control panel along the back and the detergent hopper on the top so
you lose one of the big advantages of a conventional front loader of
being able to have a shelf or counter over it but the price was right
($0) so I can't really complain too much.
 
Ron(UK) said:
On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a pair
of the timers own contacts so that the timer pauses during the first
part of the fill - and on some machines, the initial part of the water
heating. The pressostat (water level switch) and/or the thermostats are
responsible for re applying power to the timer motor to move it on past
the pause state. The water is heated to a given temperature until the
thermostat closes, then the rest of the heat cycle is a timed event.
The drain cycles are just a timed event once the pressure switch opens.
If the water hasnt gone when the timer comes to move on, most machines
will stop. I am of course relating to UK machines here, I imagine a
machine for the French market will be the same.

I think neither of these things have any relevance to the machines problem.

Here is the email response I received from Brandt:
Following your request, we can give you these following information :
the cycle of washing of the machine is managed by electronics. The micro engine of the >programmer is ordered by the electronic chart. The duration between two power supplies >of the micro engine depends on many parameters and is not systematically 1 minute.

Ron, the new and more advanced machine these days, Are their timer
movements and duration controlled entirely by a microprocessor and as a
result sometimes it might take a minute to move a notch and other times
it might take 5 minutes? In other words, would a notch in a cotton
wash function take longer to move as opposed to a notch in a wool wash
function? Or in your experience, a notch increment is constant during
a timed event?

By the way, doesn't Brandt sell their machines in UK? My machine is
French-made, but not particularly for the French market.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
James said:
I wonder if they were any different than the HotPoint top loaders here?
There's three basic designs I run into, GE/HotPoint with the centrifugal
clutch driven water pump, belt drive Whirlpool with a wig-wag used to
shift the transmission, and the modern direct drive Whirlpool with a
rubber coupler between the motor and transmission rather than a belt.
Most top load washing machines are one of those three internally
regardless of the brand slapped on the outside and not much has changed,
you can still get parts for a 30 year old machine in most cases.


The Hotpoint top loader I refer to has a cenfigugal clutch below the
(induction) motor to drive the gearbox (power unit) via a belt, and the
pump is directly above the motor driven via a flexible rubberised canvas
coupling known to repairmen as the 'Chinese lantern' because of it`s
shape. The top of the motor has a large fan/umbrella to deflect water
that inevitably leaks from the pump.

The Whilpool (Phillips) machines were French and had the drum mounted
much like a front loader except you put the washing in from above via a
trapdoor in the drum. Transmission is/was via a bakelite variable
centrigugal drive using a pair of tapered pulleys and 3 ballbearings. As
the motor speed increases the two pulleys are forced together by the
ball bearings which increases the diameter. The later of these machines
used a low voltage permanent magnet motor (the same motor as in the
Sinclair C5!) the voltage being dropped by the heating element.
Horrible machines to work on.

Ron
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron, the new and more advanced machine these days, Are their timer
movements and duration controlled entirely by a microprocessor and as a
result sometimes it might take a minute to move a notch and other times
it might take 5 minutes? In other words, would a notch in a cotton
wash function take longer to move as opposed to a notch in a wool wash
function? Or in your experience, a notch increment is constant during
a timed event?

By the way, doesn't Brandt sell their machines in UK? My machine is
French-made, but not particularly for the French market.

In a microprocessor controlled machine there isn`t a mechanical timer -
or I havent seen such a machine if there is. All the functions are
managed by the micro in combination with the power board.

As far as moving on a notch as you put it, in a normal mechanical timer,
the longer programs just have more notches than the short programs and
the heating cycle is longer for higher temps.

The pdf circuit diagram Sam posted appears to be unavailable now, are
you saying your machine has a microprocessor board somewhere? in which
case why would it have a typical crouzet type timer... Is it that you
are confusing the power module with a control module (microprocessor board)?

I`m about five years out of whack with washing machines now as the
repair trade here has just about vanished, so there may well be new
developements I,m not aware of.

Ron(UK)
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron(UK) said:
In a microprocessor controlled machine there isn`t a mechanical timer
-
or I havent seen such a machine if there is. All the functions are
managed by the micro in combination with the power board.

As far as moving on a notch as you put it, in a normal mechanical
timer, the longer programs just have more notches than the short
programs and the heating cycle is longer for higher temps.

The pdf circuit diagram Sam posted appears to be unavailable now, are
you saying your machine has a microprocessor board somewhere? in which
case why would it have a typical crouzet type timer... Is it that you
are confusing the power module with a control module (microprocessor
board)?

Sorry, I must have deleted it by mistake. I'll try to get it back.

A photo of the "power card" is at:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/pwrcard.jpg

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam Goldwasser said:
Sorry, I must have deleted it by mistake. I'll try to get it back.

A photo of the "power card" is at:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/pwrcard.jpg

Schematic is now back at:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/sch_eng.pdf

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
Ron(UK) said:
The Whilpool (Phillips) machines were French and had the drum mounted
much like a front loader except you put the washing in from above via a
trapdoor in the drum.

The Brandt machine I have is of such design, a top-loader tumbler. I
chose this design over the front-loading because it doesn't require me
to bend when loading/unloading clothes.

Esther
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Hotpoint top loader I refer to has a cenfigugal clutch below the
(induction) motor to drive the gearbox (power unit) via a belt, and the
pump is directly above the motor driven via a flexible rubberised canvas
coupling known to repairmen as the 'Chinese lantern' because of it`s
shape. The top of the motor has a large fan/umbrella to deflect water
that inevitably leaks from the pump.


Yep, that sounds identical to the US machine, they made a zillion of
those sold under GE, Hotpoint, and a number of other brands, my grandma
had one of that design that would be at least 40 years old now if she
still had it. If you ever need parts for one, just about everything is
available from http://www.repairclinic.com, I don't know if new machines
like that are still sold but they were not too many years ago.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:

I suspect, looking at the power card photo, that same pcb is used for
either mechanical or a microprocessor controlled machines. There`s some
empty components spaces to the right of the heatsink which are probably
triacs to control watervalves, pump, etc, on the micro machine. the
motor control triac is just visible clipped to the left hand side of the
heatsink - could be TR1. The relay could be either heating element
control or motor direction, I would guess motor direction. The white
plastic cased module is very typical of continental machines.

Looking once again at the pdf, I see that there`s a feed to the timer
motor from the module, which is probably how the timer gets interupted
during the heat pause phase. I cant see how a problem there would cause
the machine to increment through at a faster than normal pace tho a
shorted component might cause the timer motor to run all the time.

Ron
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Brandt machine I have is of such design, a top-loader tumbler. I
chose this design over the front-loading because it doesn't require me
to bend when loading/unloading clothes.

Esther

It`s quite possible that the same machine is sold under several
different brand names. I wonder if there`s anyway of crossreferencing
machines from different manufacturers in the US.

Ron
 
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