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50 hz timer motor

R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, I don't see any coil or solenoid as far as I could tell. The tiny
motor has a metal cap on one end integrated so I don't know what's
inside. It's a Crouzet motor TMX 88900048 A 32591. I already tried to
research the specifications of the motor but hit a dead end before.

If there`s no solenoid, then it`s most probably that the timer itself is
faulty. There was a common problem with some Hoover machines here (UK)
where the timer would skip through the rinse cycle in minutes. The cause
was the geneva drive in the timer (Crouzet) jamming.

Has the fault been apparent on the machine always since it was first
used on 60 hz, or has it developed recently?

Ron(UK)
 
Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.
 
T

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is sounding like a system problem. European washers are supposed to
be energy efficient. There seem to be a number of sensors in this
schematic. Perhaps you are being outsmarted by it. Have you actullay
tried washing a very dirty load of laundry? Maybe it is smart enought to
figure your test runs don't need the normal run time?
 
T

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**

Jan 1, 1970
0
Also did you check the Quick Wash function? Maybe stuck in that mode?
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.

In timers that have a geneva drive, it`s between the two sets of cams,
not easily servicable as it entails completly stripping down the timer,
not something a service man would normally attempt to produce a reliable
lasting and guaranteeable repair.

- Something that did just come to mind is the fact that Hoover washers
for the UK market wont work on ships that have 60 hertz supplies. the
drain pumps were changed at some time from a shaded pole motor to a
magnetic rotor, and while the shaded pole unit worked fine, the newer
pumps couldn`t develop enough power to get the water out on 60 hz.

Before you rip the timer apart, take a look on this forum,
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/ you might find something on there to give
you clue. Its a very slow site btw, dont give up on it loading.


good luck
Ron
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.

There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:

Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)

Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.

So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.

Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.

One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.

There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:

Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)

Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.

So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.

Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.

One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).

--- sam

Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Ron (UK)
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron(UK) said:
Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Ron (UK)
Further to my last post, some timers - we call them the Italian type -
have a lever external to the cam barrels, which is operated by the rear
cam and interupts the connection to the front cams at certain parts of
the program. It`s usually on a rod which runs from front to back of the
timer and has a 'flag' that fits in between the front and rear cams. If
this timer has that arrangment, perhaps it`s seized up in some way.

Ron
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron(UK) said:
Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg

Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).

The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.

What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz! :)

Thanks.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg

Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).

The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.

What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz! :)

Thanks.

What do the two white wires go to? a pair of contacts, or a coil?

Ron
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz! :)


Well if all else fails I've got a friend in the UK who I'm sure would be
happy to try the darn thing on 50 Hz if it was sent over there. I'd say
it's pretty safe to assume the timer is bad though, a part could have
been manufactured with a crack in it and broken apart in shipping.
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron(UK) said:
What do the two white wires go to? a pair of contacts, or a coil?

No, that's the motor.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well if all else fails I've got a friend in the UK who I'm sure would
be happy to try the darn thing on 50 Hz if it was sent over there. I'd
say it's pretty safe to assume the timer is bad though, a part could
have been manufactured with a crack in it and broken apart in shipping.

I don't think there is any issue with 50/60 Hz. The motor does what
it's supposed to do and there is nothing else in there that is electrical.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
T

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**

Jan 1, 1970
0
My bet is that the timer is OK. The washer has a quick wash feature
button and further is supposed to be energy efficient. I bet the timer
is turned on and off by a separate master timer, the interval of which
is determined by demand. I think the technology is fooling the original
poster.

Joe
 
Sam,

On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer
sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60
sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to
whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?

Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I
added up all the squares for the first program which includes the
pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user
manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill
time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the
actual drum-turning time.
 
My original post stated that the wash, drain, rinse and spin all were
cut short within each function. Even if it's an extremely light load,
if the machine is so smart that it thinks it should take in water to
wash, why wouldn't it completely empty it during the drain?
 
K

Ken Weitzel

Jan 1, 1970
0
My original post stated that the wash, drain, rinse and spin all were
cut short within each function. Even if it's an extremely light load,
if the machine is so smart that it thinks it should take in water to
wash, why wouldn't it completely empty it during the drain?

Hi...

For what it's worth, under some circumstances my old regular top loading
washing machine does just that - intentionally.

I believe it's related to "wash and wear" (no iron) cycles; where it
wants to cool the clothing down slowly, rather than going from a
real hot wash to an influx of real cold water.

Take care.

Ken
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer
sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60
sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to
whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?

That would seem to be pretty definitive unless something external to the
timer (i.e., in the module) is supposed to hold up the timer for 45 seconds
each minute.

I still say if you can find someone who can test a timer by itself by just
powering the motor and seeing how long between clicks, that would clinch it.
Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I
added up all the squares for the first program which includes the
pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user
manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill
time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the
actual drum-turning time.

I agree on that. Even a no-dirt load needs to be drained properly.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
That would seem to be pretty definitive unless something external to the
timer (i.e., in the module) is supposed to hold up the timer for 45 seconds
each minute.

I still say if you can find someone who can test a timer by itself by just
powering the motor and seeing how long between clicks, that would clinch it.




I agree on that. Even a no-dirt load needs to be drained properly.

On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a pair
of the timers own contacts so that the timer pauses during the first
part of the fill - and on some machines, the initial part of the water
heating. The pressostat (water level switch) and/or the thermostats are
responsible for re applying power to the timer motor to move it on past
the pause state. The water is heated to a given temperature until the
thermostat closes, then the rest of the heat cycle is a timed event.
The drain cycles are just a timed event once the pressure switch opens.
If the water hasnt gone when the timer comes to move on, most machines
will stop. I am of course relating to UK machines here, I imagine a
machine for the French market will be the same.

I think neither of these things have any relevance to the machines problem.

Ron
 
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