50 hz timer motor

[[email protected]]

A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

 

[oldfogie]

A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.

 

[James Sweet]

A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

That's bizarre, does the timer use a normal syncronous motor? Either way
that part draws so little current that you could very easily make a
little frequency converter, all you need is an oscillator that runs at
60Hz, a couple of mosfets and some glue components.

 

[Ron(UK)]

A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

A possibility is that the timer has developed a fault in that the gear
set in the timer is somehow sticking. Most washing machine timers have
a sytem where the main cam increments one notch for every so many
revolutions of the timer motor. You might notice two 'barrels' inside,
the rear one turning continously and the other clicking round once every
revolution of the rear barrel. The rear barrel controls the main motor,
and the front barrel the fill valves, drain pump and heater. Some
machines have a solenoid which kicks the front barrel out of gear for
certain parts of the wash - heat pause etc. This solenoid is controlled
by a triac on the control module, maybe that`s where the problem lies. A
continuously buzzing solenoid usually means a faulty module.

I,ve seen timers that clicked through in minutes because the little
planet gears were gummed up with deteriorating grease.

Hth

Ron(UK)

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

That's bizarre, does the timer use a normal syncronous motor? Either
way that part draws so little current that you could very easily make
a little frequency converter, all you need is an oscillator that runs
at 60Hz, a couple of mosfets and some glue components.

I have been in email contact. My guess is either that the motor is
indeed defective (unlikely) or that the machine is supposed to move from one
state to the next quickly, but should then hold in each state awaiting
a completion signal and for some reason, that part of the circuit doesn't
like 60 Hz. Unfortunately, the schematic is in French:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/SFX70.pdf

From what I can decipher, the timer uses a normal synchronous motor.

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[Mike Berger]

If the machine is useless anyway, disassemble the timer and
watch it run on 60 HZ. At least you'll get a clue as to why
it's going so fast.

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.

OK, we now have a schematic in English if anyone is still awake on this
issue:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/sch_eng.pdf

It lookse like there is a signal to start the timer (page 4) and my guess
is that due to either something being broken or the 60/50 Hz issue, the
timer is overshooting where it should stop and so isn't waiting for the
Start signal. Of course, all the magic happens in the "Module".

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Ron(UK)]

OK, we now have a schematic in English if anyone is still awake on this
issue:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/sch_eng.pdf

It lookse like there is a signal to start the timer (page 4) and my guess
is that due to either something being broken or the 60/50 Hz issue, the
timer is overshooting where it should stop and so isn't waiting for the
Start signal. Of course, all the magic happens in the "Module".

There appears to be no solenoid connections on the timer, which would
indicate that it`s an 'italian type' which is at odds with the machine
seeming to be a variable temperature machine - on a variable temp
machine, during the heat pause, the timer main cam is knocked out of
gear by a solenoid operated by the module, so that the sub cam which
controls the main motor direction still turns. the solenoid drops out
when the wash water reaches a certain temp, then the rest of the heating
cycle is governed by the time it takes the main cam to move on to it`s
next position

I suspect it`s a mechanical timer and there is a problem with the pawls
between the two cam barrels ( my terminology may differ from yours)
If the timer has a thin card or plastic cover on top, it can usually be
easily levered off to reveal the cams. If both cams revolve together all
the time, the pawl mechanism which causes the intermittent drive of the
front cam is jammed. Some use a maltese cross or 'Geneva Drive' for
this action.

Ron

 

[[email protected]]

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

 

[Ken Weitzel]

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

Hi...

I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
hy-sync motor?

We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
multiple?

If it's of sufficient interest, I have a small car inverter that
changes frequency considerably with changes in engine speed...
and also have a just removed (sticky, but still runs fine) that
I could do some experiments with. Let me know.

And, from the purchase of the replacement defrost timer, I know
that all kinds of replacement motors are available. Wonder if it
wouldn't be possible to replace just the motor? We have a
great old-style appliance parts store here in Winnipeg, and I'd
be happy to check with them if you like.

Take care.

Ken

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

Hi...

I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
hy-sync motor?

We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
multiple?

If it's of sufficient interest, I have a small car inverter that
changes frequency considerably with changes in engine speed...
and also have a just removed (sticky, but still runs fine) that
I could do some experiments with. Let me know.

I think the poster said that someone had applied 50 Hz to the motor
and it behaved as expected compared to 60 Hz - 5/6ths the speed.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
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[Asimov]

"Ken Weitzel" bravely wrote to "All" (05 Nov 05 03:08:49)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: 50 hz timer motor"

KW> From: Ken Weitzel <[email protected]>
KW> Xref: core-easynews sci.electronics.repair:347585

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

KW> Hi...

KW> I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
KW> hy-sync motor?

KW> We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
KW> possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
KW> multiple?
[,,,]


Ken,

You may be onto something here. The problem might be that the motor is
*not* syncing at all but instead is behaving as a simple ac motor.
Perhaps this is due to the number of pole pieces which can't match up
at 60 Hertz with the design rpm. Basically the rotor simply slips
through its normal virtual electronic cage and spins really fast.
It doesn't spin 1.4 times faster but instead maybe 14 times faster.

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.

 

[Ron(UK)]

"Ken Weitzel" bravely wrote to "All" (05 Nov 05 03:08:49)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: 50 hz timer motor"

KW> From: Ken Weitzel <[email protected]>
KW> Xref: core-easynews sci.electronics.repair:347585

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

KW> Hi...

KW> I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
KW> hy-sync motor?

KW> We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
KW> possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
KW> multiple?
[,,,]


Ken,

You may be onto something here. The problem might be that the motor is
*not* syncing at all but instead is behaving as a simple ac motor.
Perhaps this is due to the number of pole pieces which can't match up
at 60 Hertz with the design rpm. Basically the rotor simply slips
through its normal virtual electronic cage and spins really fast.
It doesn't spin 1.4 times faster but instead maybe 14 times faster.

That`s a posibility, but if the rear cam barrel in the timer were
turning too fast, the drum wouldn`t do the correct number of turns per
direction in tumble before changing direction.

Ron

 

[Ron(UK)]

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Approximately how many minutes per rev is the rear cam turning?

Ron

 

[[email protected]]

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle

together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.


Esther

 

[Ron(UK)]

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.


Esther

That doesn`t sound correct to me, the rear cam (motor control) should
as you say turn about 1 rev a minute, but the front cam which controls
the fill, heat, drain and spin should I think only move on one click for
each rev of the rear cam. Can you see any coil or solenoid on or inside
the timer?

Ron

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.

Now, when running on 60 Hz, is everything just 6/5ths as fast?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[[email protected]]

yes.

 

[[email protected]]

As far as I could tell, there is no coil or solenoid inside. However,
the tiny motor has a metal cap on one end and I'm not sure what, if
anything, might be inside. The motor is Crouzet TMX 88900048 A 32591.
I tried to research the motor specification with Crouzet but had hit a
dead end previously.

Esther

 

[[email protected]]

No, I don't see any coil or solenoid as far as I could tell. The tiny
motor has a metal cap on one end integrated so I don't know what's
inside. It's a Crouzet motor TMX 88900048 A 32591. I already tried to
research the specifications of the motor but hit a dead end before.