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280V motor on 230V circuit

C

charles

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is the grounded conductor in a 2-wire 230/240 volt system fed to each home
referred to as "neutral" even in UK?

Yes. - but where is it grounded. Formerly it was grounded only at the
star (centre) point of the local transformer, but more recently is it being
grounded (again) at the domestic intake point.
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
| |> I'm a little confused about a 230 volt circuit. In what part of the world
|> does the utility supply 230v?
|>
|> jak
|
| In theory, it's 230 on a single phase - neutral circuit here in the UK now,
| but in practice, it's actually nearer the previously accepted 240v for the
| most part ...

Is the grounded conductor in a 2-wire 230/240 volt system fed to each home
referred to as "neutral" even in UK?

Yes, although we have 3 types of supply arrangement for earthing
used on public supplies. (Note that on 240V, there's often far
more distance between the consumer and the transformer than
you'll find in the US on 120V supplies.)

TN-S:
Neutral is grounded only at the transformer, but a separate
earth conductor is carried in the supply network and brought
into the home from that same grounding point.

TN-C-S (also known as Protective Multiple Earthing):
A single PEN (Protective Earth and Neutral) conductor from
the transformer serves as both neutral and ground connection
in the supply network. The PEN conductor must also be earthed
regularly throughout the supply network, and it requires very
high integrity connections to ensure the risk of it breaking
is very low (this is a legal requirement). Once the supply
reaches the consumer, the PEN conductor is split into separate
neutral and earth conductors in the installation.

TT:
The supplier grounds the neutral as for TN-S, but doesn't
provide the consumer with any earthing connection. The
consumer needs to make their own ground connection for earthing
(and shouldn't cross-connect this to the neutral).
TT is only found on old rural overhead supply networks, and
they are upgraded to TN-C-S when due for refurbishment.

Even if the supplier does provide an earth connection (TN-S
or TN-C-S), the installation can choose to ignore it and be
wired as a TT system. This is sometimes done for submains
to outbuildings and outdoor electrics, even when the main
installation is TN-S or TN-C-S.

These earthing system arrangements are covered in the uk.d-i-y
FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/electrical.html#system
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
| |> Jamie wrote:
|>> hr(bob) [email protected] wrote:
|>>
|>>> On Apr 26, 6:14 pm, Jamie
|>>>
|>>>> Deodiaus wrote:
|>>>>
|>>>>> I have a broken pool motor [magnetek y56y] which will cost a bundle
to
|>>>>> fix
|>>>>> or repair.
|>>>>> While doing a search on the web, I found the same model (really
cheap)
|>>>>> but
|>>>>> wired for 280V, instead of the 230 V load that my wiring is
supplies.
|>>>>> Now, I was thinking of buying the cheap 280V model and installing
it
|>>>>> instead. Aside from rotating at a different speed and
|>>>>> maybe some power inefficiencies, are there any other drawbacks of
|>>>>> using the 280V model
|>>>>> instead?
|>>>>
|>>>> are you sure it isn't 208 ?
|>>>>
|>>>> --http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> I'd be suspicious that the 280V was a misreading somehow of 230V.
|>> that sounds more plausible.
|>>
|> I'm a little confused about a 230 volt circuit. In what part of the
world
|> does the utility supply 230v?
|>
|> jak
|
| In theory, it's 230 on a single phase - neutral circuit here in the UK
now,
| but in practice, it's actually nearer the previously accepted 240v for
the
| most part ...

Is the grounded conductor in a 2-wire 230/240 volt system fed to each home
referred to as "neutral" even in UK?

One common neutral that is grounded back at the nearest transformer
substation, and three phases, fed singly to homes in a reasonably 'balanced'
way (loading-wise). So one side of the street may be fed from one phase, and
the other side of the street from a different phase, then further up the
street, some more houses connected to the remaining phase and so on. Each
house also has a protective ground connection. Generally, no 'pole pigs'
except in rural areas. For the most part, each collection of several hundred
houses, are connected underground to a small building containing 3 phase
transformers. I think that the input to these stations is around 11kV, also
underground. The 'hot' side of the supply is usually known as "live" in the
UK, but is sometimes also known as "phase".

I'm not an electrical engineer, but that's pretty much the basis of the UK
domestic distribution system. Commercial premises usually have a full three
phase plus neutral connection to the network.

Arfa
 
D

Deodiaus

Jan 1, 1970
0
I tried first by replacing the capacitor. I could not pry off the
pump because it was rusted shut and bolted on well.
The repair guy said it was a break in the winding. He is rewinding it
for $170.
I was thinking of doing it myself but I was told that rewinding it
manually is tough.

BTW, I cannot refind the "for sale" motor on the web anymore.
 
|
| |> |
|> | |> |> In article <[email protected]>,
|> |> [email protected]
|> |> wrote:
|> |>
|> |>> There are two different flavors of 220/230/240 volts. Some places
|> |>> have a
|> |>> simple system with one wire hot and one wire grounded. Other
|> |>> places have
|> |>> a split system where the voltage is split in half to get
|> |>> 110/115/120 volts
|> |>> relative to ground, by adding a additional "middle" conductor that
|> |>> is the
|> |>> grounded one.
|> |>
|> |> Sonny, you need to LEARN the difference between Ground and
|> |> Neutral......
|> |> before you spout any further BS.......
|> |
|> | What he wrote looks reasonable to me in terms of ground and neutral.
|> | Neutral is the grounded conductor where I live. He does not say to
|> | use a ground as a neutral, if that's what you're getting at. I can
|> | only guess that that may be what you're getting at, you haven't really
|> | said.
|>
|> He might be one of those "knows just enough to be really dangerous" people
|> on the net. I didn't even mention "neutral". My intent was to explain it
|> in a simpler way for someone to just understand the basic difference. The
|> term "middle" was to convey a little more information than "neutral" would
| <SNIP>
|
| Well, I understood what he meant, but maybe I took it the wrong way. When he
| said middle conudctor I was thinking the center lug on the transformer which
| is grounded and used as the neutral.

That is what I meant when I said middle conductor. I intentionally avoided
calling it neutral for the person I was responding to. I did quote it to
make it clear (but this apparently was not clear enough for at least one
person) for others that I was using some other term.
 
| Yes, although we have 3 types of supply arrangement for earthing
| used on public supplies. (Note that on 240V, there's often far
| more distance between the consumer and the transformer than
| you'll find in the US on 120V supplies.)

Our supplies to homes are also 240V. We just ground it in a different
way through the use of a center tap and an additional wire, which gets
the neutral designation. For an equivalent _balanced_ load in the US,
we should see no more voltage drop than in the UK. And that voltage
drop will be effectively halved between one of the hots and the neutral.


| TN-S:
| Neutral is grounded only at the transformer, but a separate
| earth conductor is carried in the supply network and brought
| into the home from that same grounding point.
|
| TN-C-S (also known as Protective Multiple Earthing):
| A single PEN (Protective Earth and Neutral) conductor from
| the transformer serves as both neutral and ground connection
| in the supply network. The PEN conductor must also be earthed
| regularly throughout the supply network, and it requires very
| high integrity connections to ensure the risk of it breaking
| is very low (this is a legal requirement). Once the supply
| reaches the consumer, the PEN conductor is split into separate
| neutral and earth conductors in the installation.
|
| TT:
| The supplier grounds the neutral as for TN-S, but doesn't
| provide the consumer with any earthing connection. The
| consumer needs to make their own ground connection for earthing
| (and shouldn't cross-connect this to the neutral).
| TT is only found on old rural overhead supply networks, and
| they are upgraded to TN-C-S when due for refurbishment.
|
| Even if the supplier does provide an earth connection (TN-S
| or TN-C-S), the installation can choose to ignore it and be
| wired as a TT system. This is sometimes done for submains
| to outbuildings and outdoor electrics, even when the main
| installation is TN-S or TN-C-S.
|
| These earthing system arrangements are covered in the uk.d-i-y
| FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/electrical.html#system

Nice info!

I'm curious about this: is it legal in the UK for a home to feed their supply
into their own transformer and ground the secondary at that point as a new
system?
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
JANA said:
If you are in North America, and have 120 VAC to the outlets, what you
call 220 or 230 VAC in your home is actually 208 VAC, unless you
installed some kind of transformer to compensate.

No, that's not true. It's 240V, the transformer has a grounded center tap so
120 from either side to neutral, and 240 between the hots. You find 208V in
commercial buildings and some apartment complexes that are fed with 3 phase,
but not in a house, unless you're one of the few lucky people to have 3
phase available.

I somehow think that the vendor of the motor made an error. Having 280
VAC sounds to me very unconventional, unless this was some kind of
special installation.

It's clearly a typo and should be 208V.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
James Sweet said:
No, that's not true. It's 240V, the transformer has a grounded center tap
so 120 from either side to neutral, and 240 between the hots. You find
208V in commercial buildings and some apartment complexes that are fed
with 3 phase, but not in a house, unless you're one of the few lucky
people to have 3 phase available.



It's clearly a typo and should be 208V.

If it's not a silly question, with the motor in question being offered "on
the web, really cheap", then if it's e-bay, why not use the 'ask the seller
a question' option, or if it's a reseller, use his on-site 'contact us'
facility ? Then there would be no debate about typos and exotic voltage
issues ... :)

Arfa
 
B

Benj

Jan 1, 1970
0
I tried first by replacing the capacitor. I could not pry off the
pump because it was rusted shut and bolted on well.

This is standard with "pool stuff" around water.
The repair guy said it was a break in the winding. He is rewinding it
for $170.
I was thinking of doing it myself but I was told that rewinding it
manually is tough.

He is right, it is.
BTW, I cannot refind the "for sale" motor on the web anymore.

Here's the first lesson in "shopping like a woman": Ya snooze, Ya
loose!
You see that "good price" you MUST buy it right then and there. If you
futz around trying to make up your mind, it'll always be too late!
Later it will be gone. [Hey, you think there's nobody else out there
who can spot a bargain like you?]
 
| If you are in North America, and have 120 VAC to the outlets, what you
| call 220 or 230 VAC in your home is actually 208 VAC, unless you
| installed some kind of transformer to compensate.

That's only true if the source transformer is a three phase WYE/star type.
If you have center tapped delta three phase, or single phase Edison split,
then you have genuine 240 volts (although with that delta you may also have
a third wire that is 208 volts relative to ground/neutral).


| I somehow think that the vendor of the motor made an error. Having 280
| VAC sounds to me very unconventional, unless this was some kind of
| special installation.

It may be a reference to working on 277 volts, which is an available voltage
in some large commercial/industrial locations.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
Deodiaus said:
I have a broken pool motor [magnetek y56y] which will cost a bundle to
fix
or repair.
While doing a search on the web, I found the same model (really cheap)
but
wired for 280V, instead of the 230 V load that my wiring is supplies.
Now, I was thinking of buying the cheap 280V model and installing it
instead.  Aside from rotating at a different speed and
maybe some power inefficiencies, are there any other drawbacks of
using the 280V model
instead?
  are you sure it isn't 208 ?
--http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

I'd be suspicious that the 280V was a misreading somehow of 230V.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yeah, where do you find 280 volts? it's either 208 or 230.
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
? "Deodiaus said:
I have a broken pool motor [magnetek y56y] which will cost a bundle to
fix
or repair.
While doing a search on the web, I found the same model (really cheap)
but
wired for 280V, instead of the 230 V load that my wiring is supplies.
Now, I was thinking of buying the cheap 280V model and installing it
instead. Aside from rotating at a different speed and
maybe some power inefficiencies, are there any other drawbacks of
using the 280V model
instead?
Yes-it could be toast in a couple of seconds. While motors with brushes,
like the ones used in short duty appliances, like drills and blenters, will
rotate slower in lower voltages, without problems, Asynchronous motors
(brushless) will really smoke to death if used in voltages significantly
lower than nominal. Can't you find a generic pool motor, if you know the
horsepower, voltage (3 phase? line to line) and intake and outlet gauge? and
maybe rpm?

HTH,
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ï said:
In alt.engineering.electrical Michael Kennedy
|
| |> |
|> | |> |> In article <[email protected]>,
|> |> [email protected]
|> |> wrote:
|> |>
|> |>> There are two different flavors of 220/230/240 volts. Some places
|> |>> have a
|> |>> simple system with one wire hot and one wire grounded. Other
|> |>> places have
|> |>> a split system where the voltage is split in half to get
|> |>> 110/115/120 volts
|> |>> relative to ground, by adding a additional "middle" conductor that
|> |>> is the
|> |>> grounded one.
|> |>
|> |> Sonny, you need to LEARN the difference between Ground and
|> |> Neutral......
|> |> before you spout any further BS.......
|> |
|> | What he wrote looks reasonable to me in terms of ground and neutral.
|> | Neutral is the grounded conductor where I live. He does not say to
|> | use a ground as a neutral, if that's what you're getting at. I can
|> | only guess that that may be what you're getting at, you haven't
really
|> | said.
|>
|> He might be one of those "knows just enough to be really dangerous"
people
|> on the net. I didn't even mention "neutral". My intent was to explain
it
|> in a simpler way for someone to just understand the basic difference.
The
|> term "middle" was to convey a little more information than "neutral"
would
| <SNIP>
|
| Well, I understood what he meant, but maybe I took it the wrong way.
When he
| said middle conudctor I was thinking the center lug on the transformer
which
| is grounded and used as the neutral.

That is what I meant when I said middle conductor. I intentionally
avoided
calling it neutral for the person I was responding to. I did quote it to
make it clear (but this apparently was not clear enough for at least one
person) for others that I was using some other term.

--
Nope. LV (low voltage)230-V in Europe is just sufficient for 1 km distance.
MV (medium voltage) 20 kV for 60 km. HV (high voltage) 150 kV for 220 km.
EHV 400kV for 500 km with stability issues. 110 volt is so low you need a
transformer outside each building....
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nope. LV (low voltage)230-V in Europe is just sufficient for 1 km
distance. MV (medium voltage) 20 kV for 60 km. HV (high voltage) 150 kV
for 220 km. EHV 400kV for 500 km with stability issues. 110 volt is so low
you need a transformer outside each building....



--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr


Learn the system before you criticize it.

It's not 110V, it's 240V, we simply split it with a grounded center tap
which gives 120V between each side and neutral, or 240V between the sides..
There's no transformer per house, except rural applications. Generally 5-10
houses are on each transformer, sometimes more. The problem with long runs
is that the voltage fluctuates substantially with large loads such as
central air conditioning. Standard North American residential service is 200
Amps 240V, I gather this is quite a bit larger than typical European
domestic stuff, so stretching it over 1km distance would require
prohibitively large cables or suffer from wide voltage swings. Makes more
sense to run 7200V down the street and locate a smallish transformer near
every half dozen houses.
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ï "James Sweet said:
Learn the system before you criticize it.

It's not 110V, it's 240V, we simply split it with a grounded center tap
which gives 120V between each side and neutral, or 240V between the sides.
I'm perfectly aware of this, only in theory, though, as I've never been in
USA. I have worked, though in the decommisioned US base in Gournes, really
impressive your distribution systems:)
And in Europe we have 400 V (3 phase) line to line voltage. It's 230 line to
earth. Large motors and conditioners use 3 phase. Normal residence is 40 A
230 V single phase, or for energy hogs 400 V 3 X 40 A 3 phase..
 
T

Thomas Tornblom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Europe.

I also noticed just last week that Malaysia and Singapore use 230V (@50Hz).
 
T

Thomas Tornblom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Residential power in Sweden is 400V 3 phase, main fuses normally 25A
or lower.

Room outlets are wired with one phase, neutral and ground to get 230V.

There is a smallish transformer station in the neighborhood which
probably powers two entire blocks. I would guess somewhere around 20-30
houses.
 
T

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

Jan 1, 1970
0
? "Thomas Tornblom said:
Residential power in Sweden is 400V 3 phase, main fuses normally 25A
or lower.

Room outlets are wired with one phase, neutral and ground to get 230V.

There is a smallish transformer station in the neighborhood which
probably powers two entire blocks. I would guess somewhere around 20-30
houses.
Absolutely the same here, in Greece we are using only Schuko sockets, from
german Schutzkontakt, security contact. There is a larger substation, maybe
2-3 for a city (in Iraklion we have 3, 180,000 residents) that steps down
from the transmission voltage, 150 kV down to primary distribution voltage,
15 kV that is the distributed with cables buried in earth. Our local power
station has units with 15 kV (older) and newer with 6.6 kV alternators, all
is stepped up to 150 kV even for the ~15 km to Iraklion. In capitals, like
Athens, electricity comes at 400 kV, is stepped down to 150 kV for secondary
transmission, again goes to the areas af the city with underground cables,
stepped down to 15 kV locally, and then distributed again (the main
generation facilities are in Kozani, West Macedonia, and they burn brown
coal. Typical size of a unit is 300 MW, voltage 21 kV and current 10 kA
which is stepped up to 400 kV, 400 A line current for transmission to Athens
and Thessaloniki).
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Residential power in Sweden is 400V 3 phase, main fuses normally 25A
or lower.

Room outlets are wired with one phase, neutral and ground to get 230V.

There is a smallish transformer station in the neighborhood which
probably powers two entire blocks. I would guess somewhere around 20-30
houses.

Similar in UK.

In most European countries, there's a single phase current limit,
above which you have to take a 3-phase supply. In the UK, that's
100A, so it's not very common to have a 3-phase supply although
you can ask for one if you want a 3-phase supply. In some other
European countries, the single phase limit is as low as 20A, so
just about everyone has a 3-phase supply.

Residential substation transformers (11kV down to 230/400) are
usually 1MVA, feeding a number of streets. A substation may have
more than one transformer in some cases (although they usually
only start out with one). Obviously, smaller transformers are
used where there aren't so many houses, and these are sometimes
pole mounted if the wiring is overhead.
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's not 110V, it's 240V, we simply split it with a grounded center tap
which gives 120V between each side and neutral, or 240V between the sides..

It's the regulation at 120V which people notice.
If you want to call it a 240V supply, then you
need to call EU supplies 400V or 415V. That's
equally misleading.
There's no transformer per house, except rural applications. Generally 5-10
houses are on each transformer, sometimes more. The problem with long runs
is that the voltage fluctuates substantially with large loads such as
central air conditioning. Standard North American residential service is 200
Amps 240V, I gather this is quite a bit larger than typical European
domestic stuff, so stretching it over 1km distance would require
prohibitively large cables or suffer from wide voltage swings. Makes more
sense to run 7200V down the street and locate a smallish transformer near
every half dozen houses.

The transformers are small in comparison, which gives poor
regulation in comparison (and as I said before, it's the
regulation at 120V which is the primary concern -- regulation
of 240V across 2 hots doesn't matter much for typical US 240V
loads).
 
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