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250V plug wiring question

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Jay, Jun 4, 2007.

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  1. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:09:50 GMT recorded as
    Possibly because there is no concept behind your semantics?
    You have undertaken a transparent exercise in pretzel logic, in an effort
    to disguise the glaringly obvious fact that you are recanting on your major
    point of contention. It's comforting to know that now, at least, you
    accept the NEC as a hedge against electrical accident.

    Now consider that you have failed to list one single example of a
    prohibition, *any* prohibition, in NEC, let alone the specific prohibition
    you keep talking about, i.e. that there exists in the NEC a prohibition
    against stupidity. Thus, your argument re prohibition is empty.
  2. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:00:09 GMT recorded as
    This is the best example yet of your foundering. Take my words in the
    first quoted paragraph, and your response below it.

    Charlie: "If the NEC is followed, accidents are prevented...."

    Doug: "It absolutely is nonsense...."

    Charlie: "Incorrect...."

    Doug: "IF FOLLOWED. There you go!"

    So, is it correct, or is it nonsense? I guess for you, it is either,
    depending on how confused you are by your own arguments.
  3. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:01:48 GMT recorded as
    A rather pointless exercise in semantics. It is linguistically understood
    that the written word must be read and adhered to by a human being in order
    for its words to have effect.
    Nobody ever claimed that it did. Note that it is you that has added the
    "in and of itself" phrase in an effort to defend your defenseless position.
  4. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:39:44 GMT recorded as
    I'm sorry, but Mr. Bowey did not say that the color coding "in and of
    itself" was sufficient to ensure safety. Far from it. He stated that
    color coding would alert a worker to a hot wire, which would make the
    situation of 240V wiring in a junction box less dangerous than if
    improperly labeled. Specific to this hypothetical situation, it would
    prevent a competent worker wiring a hot lead to a 120V neutral.

    Specific to the actual situation, i.e. wiring a 240V breaker to a 120V
    circuit, color-code was again ignored, as a competent electrician would
    never connect a white wire to a hot terminal in the CB panel. The NEC
    guideline is to always connect the white wire to the ground block. White
    and green wires are understood to be grounded conductors.

    So again, color coding, along with hundreds of other safety guidelines,
    exists to "prevent people from doing stupid things with electricity."
  5. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:07:20 GMT recorded as
    Message-ID: <lk49i.15881$>

    "*Following* codes, rules, regulations, and laws prevents misbehavior. And
    people decide whether to follow or ignore them, as they will."
  6. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:43:11 GMT recorded as
    Do you own a copy of NEC?
  7. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    So now I have to address your reading comprehension problems, too?

    You claimed to have explicitly addressed the problems inherent in connecting a
    120V receptacl to a 240V circuit. I assert that you did not.
  8. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    I have done nothing of the sort, as is readily apparent to anyone with a
    normal ability to comprehend written English.

    You have continually asserted that Code "prevents" unsafe wiring practices,
    which is manifestly false.
  9. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Not in that post, he didn't.

    [remainder snipped as unresponsive and irrelevant]
  10. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Indeed. Thank you for making my point for me: the provisions of the Code
    deter unsafe practices only when obeyed; they provide no value,
    preventive, deterrent, prohibitive, or otherwise, when the installer is
    ignorant of the Code or determined to ignore it.
  11. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Creative snipping, there, Charlie. Let's restore the part you clipped

    And **THAT** is what I said was nonsense.
  12. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Of course. Do you?
  13. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    I'm glad you finally understand that.
    That is a false statement, and I have already cited at least one
    instance in which exactly that claim was made.
    To the contrary, it is your position that is utterly defenseless, to
    wit, that the NEC prevents unsafe practices. It does not. It prohibits
    them -- and it might profit you to pick up a dictionary and acquaint
    yourself with the differences in the meanings of the two words.
  14. Chuck

    Chuck Guest

    In an oblique defense of Doug's
    position, consider that, as evidenced by
    many of the comments in this thread, the
    NEC creates an "expectation" of
    compliance. If an electrician assumes
    compliance with the NEC, he may be done
    in by an unsafe practice. If he assumes
    noncompliance, he will spend much more
    time testing to verify compliance. How
    likely is it that the mere presumption
    of NEC compliance will lead to injury?
    If everyone is expected to test
    everything for NEC compliance, then the
    benefit of affixing the tape is second
    order: who would believe it and why?

    FWIW, this is neither an endorsement of,
    nor an indictment of the NEC.

  15. Circa Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:24:18 -0400 recorded as
    <> looks like Doug Miller
    Well whip out some prohibitions, then. Chapter and verse.
    I have the McGraw-Hill NEC Handbook, 24th edition.
  16. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    In my opinion, very. Judging from the work done by the previous owners of
    two of the homes that I have owned, from what I have seen in homes that I
    inspected when house-hunting (and declined to make purchase offers on), and
    from what I have seen in the homes of friends and relatives -- there is a
    *lot* of dangerous, slip-shod electrical work in the world. Much of it is
    retrofits done by homeowners or jackleg contractors, but some appears to have
    been done during original construction and is thus presumably the product of
    supposedly professional electricians.
  17. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    It's not clear to me what the purpose of this is, but, ok, here ya go:

    "Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used ... where exposed or subject to
    excessive moisture or dampness." [2005 NEC, Article 334.12(B)(4)]

    It should be clear to any thinking person that this provision does nothing to
    *prevent* such installation.

    Now, it's your turn: cite something that the Code prevents.
    That's, what, one rev back? Or two?
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