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250V plug wiring question

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Jay, Jun 4, 2007.

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  1. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:54:03 GMT recorded as
    Ah, very good. However, you miss the important point here (which you
    concede in a separate post) that following the code in this example would
    have prevented the improper wiring. Which, of course, is my point.
    Yeah, pretty happy. I had a very nice weekend. You?
     
  2. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:51:43 GMT recorded as
    Because of the wire color. Possibly careless, but I don't think stupid. I
    think the stupidity would lie in not following the code to make sure that
    the proper wire and/or breaker was installed for the circuit in question.
    I had hoped you would have been able to form this idea for yourself, but
    I've given up waiting for that. So anyway, I don't accept your premise.
    Except that you concede that point in a separate post. So, not so obvious,
    then?
     
  3. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:08:41 GMT recorded as
    Yes, indeed it does. If the code is followed, things like that don't
    happen.
    Your grip on reality is a bit weak, there.
    Do you?
     
  4. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:52:45 GMT recorded as
    OK, I did. Didn't find any such contention. How about you point it out?
    In response to:
    You said:

    "...Code obviously did not prevent some fool from having wired the
    receptacle that way; there is no particular reason to suppose that proper
    color-coding would have done any better. Given that the outlet ALREADY
    EXISTS in that condition, it is not made any more, or less, hazardous by
    altering the colors of the wires that feed it...."

    You are making a contention against a poster's recommendation to follow
    code. Thus, you have indeed made that argument.
     
  5. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:05:25 GMT recorded as
    I will accept that your failure to address my point is a concession.
     
  6. Don Bowey

    Don Bowey Guest


    So what??? It doesn't help the electrician who comes along sometime later
    and gets the crap kicked out of him by getting a shock from the "cold"
    colored wire.

    Obviously you have not done any serious house wiring.
     
  7. Don Bowey

    Don Bowey Guest

     
  8. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    IF FOLLOWED. There you go! You finally got it.
     
  9. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    OF COURSE following Code prevents improper wiring. You continue to miss two
    important points:

    1) Code, in and of itself, does not prevent improper wiring. FOLLOWING Code
    prevents improper wiring.

    2) Correct color coding, in and of itself, does not remove the hazard.
     
  10. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    IMO, being careless with electrical wiring *is* stupid. YMMV.
    I have said absolutely nothing that would have caused a person with normal
    ability to comprehend written English to suppose that I had not "formed that
    idea for myself."
    Except that I did *not* concede that in a separate post.
    Clearly not obvious to you, at any rate.
     
  11. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    You sure seem to be having a hard time grasping this concept.

    Code *prohibits* people from doing things like that.

    FOLLOWING Code *prevents* people from doing things like that.
    Not MY grip. I have a very firm understanding of the difference between
    "prohibit" and "prevent", but you seem to think they are synonymous.
    It's quite obvious that I do, since I continue to insist on the distinction.
    It is equally obvious that you do not.
     
  12. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Then you didn't read carefully enough.

    Don Bowey's first post in the thread -- referring to the 120V receptacle
    wired onto the 240V circuit -- says, in its entirey:

    "If the white wire is to be used as a hot lead, US code requires that it be
    taped with black tape to alert workers that it it hot. Certainly that makes
    it less dangerous."

    Manifestly, the danger remains, until the receptacle is removed, or the
    breaker rewired or replaced.
    You certainly have some creative ways of interpreting plain, clear language
    to suit your own preconceptions. That is in no way a contention against a
    recommendation to follow the NEC. It is a clear statement of two clear facts
    that you have yet to grasp:

    1) The NEC does not prevent stupid or dangerous wiring practices. It
    *prohibits* them. People who do not follow the NEC will do stupid things no
    matter what the Code says.

    2) A 120V receptacle wired to the two hot legs of a 240V circuit is inherently
    dangerous, and color-coding the white wire of the circuit to indicate that it
    is hot does NOTHING to remove that danger. As long as the receptacle remains
    on that circuit, it is dangerous, regardless of the colors of the wires
    supplying it.
     
  13. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    I will accept YOUR failure to address my point as a concession. You claimed
    that you "explicity addressed" the hazard posed by a 120V device wired onto a
    240V circuit. I say you did not. By failing to refute that charge, you concede
    it.
     
  14. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    True, but -- so what?? That's NOT the greatest danger here.
    To the contrary, I've done quite a lot. It's apparent to me that you've never
    done any at all, since you completely fail to see what the REAL hazard is
    here.
     
  15. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    You have completely missed the point.

    A 120V receptacle wired across the two hot legs of a 240V circuit is an
    immediate and serious fire hazard because it will put 240V through any 120V
    device that is plugged into it.

    This is a far greater danger than the hypothetical risk of a hypothetical
    shock to a hypothetical electrician who may someday touch the (hot) white
    wire.
     
  16. David Harmon

    David Harmon Guest

    On 04 Jun 2007 14:00:16 -0400 in sci.electronics.basics, DJ Delorie
    A friend of mine found one of those after buying a house. Former
    residents apparently did it to run a window air conditioner in the
    bedroom.
     
  17. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    I bet that A/C didn't last long...

    I wonder, though, if the outlet might not have been what your friend thought
    it was. Look at a NEMA plug and receptacle configuration chart, e.g.

    http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware References/plugandreceptacleconfiguratio.
    htm#20%20Amp.

    and note the similarities between the 5-20 (120V 20A) and 6-20 (240V 20A)
    configurations. People often mistake one for the other.
     
  18. David Harmon

    David Harmon Guest

    On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 19:34:34 GMT in sci.electronics.basics,
    (Doug Miller) wrote,
    That could be a wrong guess about the air conditioner; I dunno, whatever
    was there was gone before I visited.
    I saw the wiring, though, and helped fix some of it. It was a typical
    dual 15A household socket, NEMA 5-15R according to the chart, split with
    the top socket wired 240 and the bottom wired 120V. That crosses the
    line in my book. We found some scary stuff in the kitchen wiring too,
    but I don't remember the details there.
     
  19. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Ahh. I was picturing a single 6-20R or 5-20R in a faceplate with a round
    cutout.
    Oh, yeah, absolutely. Crosses the line in pretty much anybody's book. Wow.
    Amazing that anybody would be that stupid, but it happens.

    I've always been mystified as to why people would monkey around with
    electricity without taking even the most elementary steps to understand what
    they're doing -- don't they realize it's dangerous?
    I've seen plenty of weird and scary stuff too, like a medicine cabinet with
    built-in lights and receptacle -- lights controlled by the wall switch,
    receptacle hot all the time -- and fed by a single 14-2 BX cable.

    Yes, 14-2.

    Used the black wire as constant hot, white as switched hot, and the cable
    *armor* as the neutral.
     
  20. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:41:30 GMT recorded as
    I cannot rebut a point you do not state and defend. Nor does "you did
    nothing of the kind" suffice to rebut a properly stated point of argument.
     
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