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250V plug wiring question

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Jay, Jun 4, 2007.

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  1. Don Bowey

    Don Bowey Guest

    Yes, indeed. I got that you have a small learning disorder.
     
  2. Circa Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:57:38 GMT recorded as
    Code does indeed prevent people from doing stupid things with electricity,
    as should be obvious from DJ Delorie's description of a 120V receptacle
    that was wired onto the two hot legs of a 240V circuit. Had the wires been
    marked according to code, the receptacle would not have been connected to
    the wires, as per code.

    I hope it can be forgiven that I have replied twice with a similar defense
    of adherence to the NEC, but I feel it is an important defense to make, as
    the intent of the NEC is to prevent people from doing stupid things with
    electricity.
     
  3. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Nonsense. It does nothing of the kind. You are confusing "prevent" with
    "prohibit".
    To the contrary. That the receptacle exists at all is prima facie evidence
    that neither the Code nor anything else *prevented* its installation in that
    manner.
    Rubbish. You assume without any foundation whatsoever that a person stupid
    enough to have wired a 120V receptacle to the two hot legs of a 240V circuit
    would have been deterred from doing so by proper color-coding of the wires.
    You're missing the point rather badly, I'm afraid. Go back a few posts in the
    thread, and see where this started -- I'm not arguing against color-coding.
    I'm arguing against the utterly absurd contention that color-coding is
    _in_and_of_itself_ sufficient to ensure safety. It's not.
     
  4. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Yes, indeed. I got that you have a small learning disorder.
    [/QUOTE]
    And I just got that you resort to personal abuse when you find yourself unable
    to rebut.
     
  5. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    You've missed the point completely.

    The immediate hazard is that a receptacle that accepts 120V devices was wired
    onto a 240V circuit.

    Re-identifying the white wire as a hot conductor does NOTHING to remove that
    hazard.
     
  6. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:21:42 GMT recorded as
    No. Rather, it is you who is making assumptions without any foundation
    whatsoever. Please read the sentence above that you yourself have typed.
    In it, you state that whoever wired the 120V receptacle to the 240V circuit
    was stupid. How can you support that statement, given the fact that the
    wiring color indicated that it was a 120V circuit?

    Since your foundationless assumption cannot be supported (but by all means,
    go ahead and try), then the logical conclusion is that the person that
    wired the receptacle would have been deterred from doing so by proper
    color-coding of the wires.
     
  7. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:21:42 GMT recorded as
    I don't believe anyone has made such a contention. Therefore, your
    strident argument against following NEC doesn't make much sense, now does
    it?
     
  8. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:21:42 GMT recorded as
    That the receptacle exists at all is prima facie evidence that someone
    manufactured it, and nothing more.
     
  9. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:21:42 GMT recorded as
    Not nonsense at all. If NEC is followed, accidents are prevented, as in
    the example under discussion. Please, give me an example of an NEC
    prohibition against electrical accident.
     
  10. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:26:54 GMT recorded as
    Precisely. Although, I fail to see why you think I missed the point, since
    I explicitly addressed it.
    Certainly it does. It informs anyone with a proper understanding of
    electrical wiring that the wires she or he was working with were not meant
    to be used with a 120VAC receptacle. In the situation as described, the
    receptacle *was* properly wired, *according to the color code of the wires
    at the receptacle end*.

    Actually read that this time, and make an attempt at understanding. I
    added some emphasis this time, which I hope helps a bit.
     
  11. Don Bowey

    Don Bowey Guest

     
  12. DJ Delorie

    DJ Delorie Guest

    The wires were marked according to code. The breakers were wrong; it
    was supposed to be a 120v circuit, and the whole thing was installed
    by one (incompetent) electrician. As I said before, the incident only
    made me paranoid in general, it wasn't a specific example for this
    thread.
     
  13. Circa 04 Jun 2007 22:01:41 -0400 recorded as <>
    All right, knowing that the installation was done all by one person adds to
    the discussion. You say the breakers were wrong, so that moves the problem
    to the panel end. The Electrician installed a 240 breaker and connected a
    120 circuit to it. Well, it ain't code! :) Incompetents is too kind a
    word.
     
  14. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Simple: the person who installed the receptacle assumed without checking that
    it was a 120V circuit.
    Obviously not.
     
  15. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Then perhaps you need to re-read the thread a little more carefully.
    I have made no such argument.
     
  16. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    Pedant.

    That the receptacle exists, _wired_as_it_is_, is prima facie evidence that
    neither the Code nor anything else *prevented* its installation in that
    manner.

    Happy now?
     
  17. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    It absolutely is nonsense. Codes, rules, regulations and laws don't prevent
    misbehavior at all. They *prohibit* it. Prohibition is not prevention; if it
    were, society would be crime-free, and violations of the NEC would not exist.

    *Following* codes, rules, regulations, and laws prevents misbehavior. And
    people decide whether to follow or ignore them, as they will.
    Straw man. And not even a very good one.
     
  18. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    You did nothing of the kind.
    Certainly it does NOT -- the re-identified wire remains invisible behind the
    receptacle, and the receptacle remains mis-wired and therefore still
    hazardous. The hazard is removed ONLY when the receptacle is either rewired
    correctly, or removed. Re-identifying the wire does not accomplish either
    task.
    Anyone with a proper understanding of electrical wiring would not have
    installed the receptacle in that manner in the first place.
    Fine. Mark the white wire red. Now you have black and red wires, the two hot
    legs of a 240V circuit, connected to the hot and neutral tabs of a 120V
    receptacle.

    Explain in detail how correcting the color code has removed the hazard.
    Actually read what I wrote this time, and make an attempt at understanding.
     
  19. Doug Miller

    Doug Miller Guest

    But according to you, the Code *prevents* people from doing things like that.

    Therefore, it never happened.

    Do you understand the difference between "prohibit" and "prevent" now?
     
  20. Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:59:43 GMT recorded as
    Incorrect. The NEC proscribes correct procedure, in the most part. If
    followed, the code will help prevent accidents from occurring.
    There you go! You finally got it. Took some time, though. You're a bit
    bull-headed, and I suspect you knew this all along, but simply like to
    argue and talk a lot, perhaps in the hope that folks won't notice when you
    finally submit a point. But good on ya for doing it!
    Please explain how. A straw man is a false argument, is it not? You said
    that I was confusing words when I said that the intent of NEC is to prevent
    accidents (stupid things). Your argument then, is that the code actually
    prohibits accidents. To make it clear, allow me to insert the word you
    want to use into the sentence I used:

    "Code does indeed prohibit people from doing stupid things with
    electricity."

    So, please, give me an example of an NEC prohibition against electrical
    accident (doing stupid things with electricity).
     
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