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24VAC power supply question about VA spec

Kewpy

Oct 26, 2013
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It's pretty late here now, but I'll give you a quick (edit: not so quick) description of what the system is, and what I'm trying to do, and do a diagram tomorrow.

I have a newly installed Geo-Thermal “Water to Air” Heat Pump in my home. You may be more familiar with a conventional "Air to Air" Heat Pump, which extracts Heat from the air, multiplies it and distributes it to the house. However, air temperature is constantly varying, and those heat pumps lose their ability to produce useful heat once the ambient air temperature falls below a certain point. Geo-Thermal Heat pumps, on the other hand, use the energy from beneath the earth, which is fairly constant.

There are many ways to tap the earth's energy, but in my system, (Water to Air), two deeply drilled water wells are used, which provide water that is a constant 55 deg. F. This water is pumped out of one well and delivered to the Heat pump, which uses a process like "reverse" Air Conditioning, to extract the heat, multiply it and transfer it to a coil over which air is blown and distributed to the house via a fan. Then the water is returned to the earth into the second well. Very efficient, very "Green" and very cheap to run, and here the Gov. helps offset the initial high cost of the system. Payback from not burning fossil fuel is very quick.

The only problem is my well water is very dirty, hence the need to purge (clean) the dirt from the water filter regularly. (there are also "closed loop" Geo systems that don't use well water, but circulate a Glycol solution in and out of the earth, However the "Open loop" system I use is much more efficient)

In-between the cooling and heating season, the system isn't used, so as the well "sits" it becomes very dirty, as it also does after a very heavy rainfall. Once the heating season arrives in the fall (as it is here now) the well starts to get used. The water it pulls up is very, very dirty, and clogs the water filter in just a few minutes. There are several filters "in-line" , but the first one filters out the "big" stuff and this filter has a valve on it that can be opened briefly, which will "purge" the dirt off of it, rather than having to disassemble it and clean it. As the days and weeks go by, the well runs cleaner and cleaner, therefore the times that this purge operation is needed gets to be less and less. Hence the need adjust the "off" interval for the 24VAC purge valve to be longer and longer.

Sequence of events:
When the T-Stat calls for heat, it opens a well water zone valve (there are 2 zones-downstairs and up). The well pump then sees the pressure drop in the pipes and starts to pump water out of the ground. The Geo-Thermal heat pump, having been also called into action by the T-stat, starts its process and I'm now getting warm air throughout the house.

But, if the water filter gets too dirty, the flow is reduced below the needed amount, and the Geo-Thermal heat pump shuts down prematurely. Hence the need to purge (clean) the filter.

As my drawing shows, because the T-stat and zone controller use 24VAC to operate the water zone valve, I tapped off that to provide 24V to the solenoid "purge" valve. The drawback is that without a timer controlling it, the purge valve is open all the time during the entire heating sequence, and a portion of the needed well water is diverted out the bottom of the filter housing, and thru the purge valve’s piping. The well pump is able handle this "leak" with no problem, but as you can imagine, I'm wasting a portion of the water into the sump pump pit. But, it is keeping the filter from getting clogged. By the filter assembly’s design, the dirt exits, rather than attaching to the filter.

Over the next few weeks, the well will run cleaner and cleaner, so, that's why the timer "Off" time can be adjusted to be longer and longer. The valve opens to purge the well for only a short burst, (<5 sec) then stays closed. The off (closed) period gets to be longer and longer, as the well gets cleaner and cleaner.

So to conclude, my drawing is functional (if I have the proper timer), and can work, but not optimally. Because the timer is always powered, its timing events are not coordinated with the start up of the Heat pump. Ideally, I'd like the timer's short "ON' period to begin and be simultaneous with the start of the heating sequence. That way, I'm always assured that any dirt that may have gathered in the well during the "down" time (between calls for heat) will be expunged immediately, and the timing cycle will then continue: The "off" duration will be adjusted and set manually on the timer, as I observe the filter in its clear glass housing over the upcoming days and weeks.

Whew, didn't think I'd take so long to explain it. Hopefully I didn't lose you!
 

KrisBlueNZ

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I understand. That's a good explanation, thanks. What a clever system - using the stable temperature of the earth way below the surface to provide the heating energy for your house!

I am familiar with normal air-to-air heat pumps - many houses have them here in New Zealand - but I had not heard of the water system. Probably because most people here don't have large areas of property to sink wells into! I imagine it would be popular with the farmers though.

I'm sorry you didn't see my other two posts before writing up that description, but it's still very interesting.

I guess you really can look at the pump/filter system as an independent part of the system. When the thermostat calls for the system to start up, you want to first purge the filter for a few seconds and close the purge valve, then at intervals while the system is running, you want to purge the filter again. You want to be able to adjust the interval between the purges, but not the duration of them.

I THINK (not sure) that if you actually switch the power to the timer from the thermostat, the timer will always start at a particular point in its cycle; if you arrange it so this is the purge period, every time the system starts up, a purge will be initiated. Then the timer will continue to run until the adjustable purge-to-purge time elapses, and trigger another purge, then restart the purge-to-purge time again.

If the system shuts down, the timer will forget "where it's up to" and the next time the system starts again and the timer is powered up, it will initiate another purge and start timing again.

If you set the timer to use one minute as its timebase, you should be able to get a reasonable range of purge-to-purge times, right? And you can configure the timer to generate a one minute pulse on the purge output. So the only thing you need is a way to shorten that one minute pulse down to a few seconds. That's why I suggested a timer relay.

It's just a bit unfortunate that everything in the system uses AC, because the simple timer relay board I found on eBay requires DC. But you can use your DC supply for that and the timer. The only extra thing you need is a relay that's driven by the thermostat, that switches the supply voltage to the timer so that the timer starts a new cycle each time the thermostat comes on. As I said, I THINK that will make the timer reset and start a new cycle, beginning with a purge signal. This will require a relay (not a timer relay) with a 24V AC coil and at least one normally open contact. These should be available from a local electrical retailer.

There are AC timer relays available on eBay but they're in the USD 10~20 range. The board should be fine though, and since you already have a 12VDC power supply, you don't have to buy anything, apart from an AC-operated relay to control the power to the timer, which you will need anyway.

I hope that makes sense and that I haven't missed anything obvious!

Ah yes I did. The timer has a reset input. But I don't think it would be very useful in this application.
 
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Kewpy

Oct 26, 2013
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Actually, I did see your earlier posts, but I felt it important that you had a complete and accurate understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish (but, your guess was remarkably close!)

I'm in a bit of a rush, but I've given your last post a quick read thru. I'm encouraged that there may be hope to use this timer after all.

As to the timer's start up, again, you are correct: On receiving power, it does "reset" and starts off fresh each time with the "A" event, then counts it off and proceeds to the "B" event, and cylcles. No matter where in the cycle power may be interrupted, it always starts off "fresh" from the "A" event. In the specs for the timer, it shows: Reset Method: Power on/External/Manual

As to adding the other parts you suggest, I certainly don't mind spending $10-$15 more. It's most important to find and use parts that (presumably) would be the most reliable. I know the cost doesn't guarantee that, but it's a thought. But if the cheap board will work, all the better! (considering I spent "double" for the timer)

Lastly, any way you can do a rough sketch of the circuit for me? I don't want to impose; again, I'm most grateful that you've spent this much time with me, but with my first read thru of your last post, I wasn't picturing the scheme. Having said that, perhaps later, after I read thru it again (more slowly) I'll get it.

Oh, on the timer, terminals 2 and 3 are labeled "Gate" and "Reset". Any idea what that is? Is it anything that would be useful?

Thanks.
P.S. I didn't mention: Geo-Thermal heat pumps are both Heating and Air conditioning. In summer, the process is reversed and the heat extracted from the house is "sinked" into the earth, via the water wells.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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OK, here's the arrangement I'm suggesting.

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Mains voltage comes into the 24VAC transformer, which you already have. This provides the 24VAC that operates the zone valve, and it's also used for the purge valve.

When the thermostat activates the system, it feeds 24VAC into the coil of relay K1, which activates it and causes its contact to close. This connects the mains supply to the input of the second power supply, which must have a 12VDC output. You said you already have one of these.

When that power supply powers up, the Sestos dual timer will power up as well, and will activate its "A" output. The contact in the timer will close between A-COM and A-NO and this will feed 12VDC into the power input of the timed relay circuit, which is something like the unit I linked to on eBay.

The timed relay circuit closes its output (connects COM to NO) for a short, adjustable period of time. During this time, the contact feeds 24VAC from the secondary of the 24VAC transformer into the purge valve.

When the timed relay's time expires, it opens its contact and the purge valve deactivates.

About one minute later, when the "A" output of the dual timer turns off, the timed relay circuit loses power and is ready to activate the next time the "A" output turns on.

The dual timer now waits for the "B" delay period, which is the delay between purges. If the system keeps running, and therefore the dual timer remains powered, when the "B" time expires, the dual timer will again activate its "A" output, which will power up the timed relay and generate a short activation on the purge valve, and the cycle will repeat indefinitely while the system is running.

As soon as the thermostat turns its output off, the 12VDC section will lose power and the dual timer will reset itself ready for the next activation.

The dual timer must be programmed with an "A" activation time at least as long as the purge relay run time. I assume you would set the timer to use a one minute timebase; you would then set the "A" time to one minute, and set the "B" time according to your needs.

The K1 relay must have a 24VAC coil (many relays have DC coils; relays with AC coils are a special type), and its contacts must be rated to switch your mains voltage at an amp or so.

Here are some links to suitable relays on the Digikey site. These are socket-mount relays; you can get suitable sockets from Digikey as well. You might be better to look locally though. The important specifications are 24VAC coil, contacts rated for AC mains voltage and 1A or more, minimum contact configuration 1x normally open (SPNO).

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/XT424524/PB1198-ND/1841566
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MY2 AC24 (S)/Z184-ND/307702
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SZR-LY2-1-AC24V/480-5211-ND/3073230
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/XT484R24/PB1200-ND/1841568

All of the mains wiring, including the connections to the contact of K1, must be done carefully and tidily, and insulated so you cannot touch it accidentally. K1's socket must be firmly mounted. And so on.

Edit: The Gate input isn't useful in this application, and I can't see any way to use the Reset input to improve or simplify the design.
 

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duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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Hi Kewpy,
I tried to PM you but it didn't seem to work.
I have a stream of spring water passing my house at 10C. I would like a water to air heat pump which I cannot find in the UK. What is the make of yours?

Duke37
 

Kewpy

Oct 26, 2013
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Kewpy

Oct 26, 2013
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Hello Kris
Perfect! That seems like it would do the trick. As soon as I get in the other parts, I'll get it together and report back to you. I may also add a momentary contact switch to activate the purge valve manually, in case a "between cycle" purge is needed. That way, I won't have to bother changing the timer settings.

I can't thank you enough for the help. It always amazes me how people such as yourself are so giving of their time and expertise. I can only imagine that the payback is the satisfaction derived from helping others. Again, many thanks, and I'll be back in touch with the results.

Oh, BTW, there IS a commercial purge valve for sale for this purpose.......only costs about $650 US!!!!! Mine, (now ours) if successful, is less than $75 US. (including Soleniod purge valve)
 
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KrisBlueNZ

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I may also add a momentary contact switch to activate the purge valve manually, in case a "between cycle" purge is needed. That way, I won't have to bother changing the timer settings.
I think you can use the Reset input for that. It restarts the timer, beginning with the "A" output activation. So the next purge will be delayed until the "B" time after you reset it, if that's what you want. If you want an extra purge without affecting the timer, then you'll need an external pushbutton as you said, connected across the relay contact on the timed relay board.
I can't thank you enough for the help. It always amazes me how people such as yourself are so giving of their time and expertise. I can only imagine that the payback is the satisfaction derived from helping others. Again, many thanks, and I'll be back in touch with the results.
No problem! Yes, it's good to be able to help people, to exercise my brain, and to show off my problem-solving abilities, such that they are :) It gives me something to do - I'm currently unemployed... but with a bit of luck that will change soon - I went to a screening test for a new job last week, and they said I did really well and they want to interview me tonight, so fingers crossed :)
Oh, BTW, there IS a commercial purge valve for sale for this purpose.......only costs about $650 US!!!!! Mine, (now ours) if successful, is less than $75 US. (including Soleniod purge valve)
Yes, we hear that sort of thing here from time to time. Recently another contributor saved someone several hundred dollars by explaining how to build a simple power supply to use with a transducer of some kind (I forget the details) instead of the manufacturer's own price-enhanced product. I'm sure this is one reason why the DIY culture is taking off so strongly nowadays.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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That relay has a standard 24VDC coil. Also, it is PCB-mount. You need one with a 24VAC coil. If you get one of the ones I suggested, you'll need to get a socket/base for it as well.

Thanks :) The interview went OK. I'll find out in a day or two whether they will offer me a job.
 

Kewpy

Oct 26, 2013
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Hello Kris
Well, it took a month for the timer to arrive. It should've only been 2 weeks, but they sent something completely different by mistake, so then they sent what I ordered.

However, it seems that the timer was not what you thought. We need a timer that triggers the relay AND starts to count at the same time. However, this only starts the counting and at the end of the delay time, it triggers the relay. So it can't be used.

Could I trouble you to see if you can find another one? You had seemed to be able to search Ebay very quickly when you came up with that one. (See post # 20)

Thank you.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Oh dear. Yes, it looks like it's a delayed closure, not a timed pulse closure. Sorry!

I can't find anything suitable on eBay!

Luckily, you can modify the board to do what you want.

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1. Remove the circled device (a 1 kilohm resistor, marked "102") on your board. You can cut it in half with a pair of side cutters, or remove it using a small soldering iron (30 watts or less).

2. Using a thin insulated wire and a small amount of solder, connect the pad marked "A" to the pad marked "B". The LED and the diode (small orange cylinder with black stripe) should remain in place as long as you don't heat them up so much that the solder melts on the other end.

3. Check for obvious short-circuits caused by excess solder.

The board should now do what you want. The LED will not work.

Good luck!
 

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Kewpy

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Glad to know that we can still use it. However, the picture you show is different than the one I bought. If you follow the link in post # 20, it shows the model I have, with the slight exception that on the silkscreened part number, mine doesn't have the "S" at the end. (TDRMO1). Also, good thing I bought 2 of 'em. (In case I screw up the mod!) If you need it, I can try to snap a close up pic of what I have.
Again, many thanks.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Yes I think I'll need a better picture than the one on the auction page.

Can you put a bright light on it and take a close-up. I only need the section from the edge of the relay up to the far end of the 8-pin IC.
 

Kewpy

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Here's a screen grab till I can get time to take a pic. See if this is usable. If not, I'll see if I can get a close up pic shortly. As I mentioned, mine is identical, except for the "S" at the end of the p/n. Not sure if that means anything. Thanks
 

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Kewpy

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Here's a couple of pics, hopefully they are sharp enough for you to see.
 

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KrisBlueNZ

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attachment.php


Yep. Remove the resistor marked 472 and connect the two pads together as shown.
 

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