240V Mains Noise

[Leon Gross]

Hi,

We have just moved and our new electricity supplier, Integral Energy, uses
signals on the mains supply to switch off-peak loads (such as hot water
heaters etc - we have gas though). We are experiencing noise on the lines
which is causing the halogen lights to pulse and ceiling fans to whine. This
happens every day several times, often at night and is extremely annoying,
even waking us up. It happens every 30 minutes over several hours.

Integral Energy have come out and explained what is causing this but have
said at this stage there is nothing that can be done. Does anybody have any
ideas or comments about this? Surely they could fit some sort of filter to
stop it happening?

Leon Gross

 

[Phil Allison]

Hi,

We have just moved and our new electricity supplier, Integral Energy, uses
signals on the mains supply to switch off-peak loads (such as hot water
heaters etc - we have gas though). We are experiencing noise on the lines
which is causing the halogen lights to pulse and ceiling fans to whine.

** Huh ??? The lights pulse ????

Are they on some crappy a dimmer by any chance ???

The super-imposed signal does not alter the average voltage of the
supply - but may affect a dimmer's firing point at low settings.

This happens every day several times, often at night and is extremely annoying,
even waking us up. It happens every 30 minutes over several hours.

** Thousands of folk use ceiling fans in their bedrooms - with no audible
sounds from those tones.

Must be some fluky aspect of your fans.

Integral Energy have come out and explained what is causing this but have
said at this stage there is nothing that can be done. Does anybody have any
ideas or comments about this? Surely they could fit some sort of filter to
stop it happening?

** Easier by far to get the fans fixed and a buy a better dimmer.



........ Phil

 

[amstereo - matt2]

nah dude, I have seen this myu self, touch lamps (and remote light dimmers
as sold by HPM) suffer from this dimming effect its a flutter in the
brightness that occurs at the same time as the noise occures in fans,
especially the ones that are speed controlled using the nob style 3 speed
controllers (mirabella and others)

it's more to do with the speed / brightness controllers than it is with the
units them selves.

the easiest fix is a much better quality controller, but these are
expensive.

the control signals alter the waveform enough that the controllers factor
these as the actuall power supply and (incorrectly) send the power through.

I've even experienced these effects in stand / desk fans.

its not so much that the sounds are inaudible, its just that they are not
usually associated.

 

[David Sauer]

Integral Energy have come out and explained what is causing this but have
said at this stage there is nothing that can be done. Does anybody have any
ideas or comments about this? Surely they could fit some sort of filter to
stop it happening?

4 electronic controlled fans in our house exhibit the same noise as
well as a 2400W oil-filled heater, not sure how its controlled however
it does have a number of power settings.

No problem with downlights, both transformer and electronic feed.

Different supplier, SE QLD Energex. No where near loud enough to wake
myself, I'm only aware of the noise after working next to the motors
(now electronic based ) that startup to put the noise over the lines.

 

[Phil Allison]

4 electronic controlled fans in our house exhibit the same noise as
well as a 2400W oil-filled heater, not sure how its controlled however
it does have a number of power settings.

** Ah - it is something called a thermostat.

No problem with downlights, both transformer and electronic feed.

** But not dimmed.

Different supplier, SE QLD Energex.

** Oh - they must be more genteel than the other ruffians.

No where near loud enough to wake myself,

** A nuke would not wake this sleeping log.




............. Phil

 

[amstereo - matt2]

i'm on energex supply as well (south-east QLD)

the noise is noticable, but it won't wake you up unless your a shit sleeper.
close lightning strikes will wake me up, or the constant ringing of the damn
telephone.

 

[David Sauer]

** Ah - it is something called a thermostat.

yeah, got one of them which will switch it on and off automatically,
but also has power settings something like 1200,1800 and 2400 watts.

** But not dimmed.

Sorry, these are dimmed. 500VA clipsal dimmers with the large
pushbutton.

** Oh - they must be more genteel than the other ruffians.

Maybe he's living next-door to the substation or something, or lives
in an industrial area that then has little load of a night resulting
in an increase of the signal.

http://www.energex.com.au/upload/technical_documents/20030710_124800_3327753.pdf
has a good read on it under load control.

 

[Phil Allison]

yeah, got one of them which will switch it on and off automatically,
but also has power settings something like 1200,1800 and 2400 watts.

** It switches the element wiring around.

Sorry, these are dimmed. 500VA clipsal dimmers with the large
pushbutton.

** If you are using electronic stepdowns - then the dimmer is not the
simple kind.



.......... Phil

 

[Terry Collins]

Hi,

We have just moved and our new electricity supplier, Integral Energy, uses
signals on the mains supply to switch off-peak loads (such as hot water
heaters etc - we have gas though).

These signals are not the cause of your problems. Integral Energy's
supply has become more noisy over the last few years.

Do you live near an industrial area, or a coal mine?, or ?

BTW You can expect to average 1 or 2 nights per year without power

 

[Phil Allison]

These signals are not the cause of your problems.

** What ?????

The OP is hearing control tones at night - every 30 minutes .

You say this is not happening ?

Despite the company staff agreeing it is ???




........... Phil

 

[Terry Collins]

** What ?????

The OP is hearing control tones at night - every 30 minutes .

No, he is hearing the effect on machinery/lights!

You say this is not happening ?

Despite the company staff agreeing it is ???

Okay, I missed the second paragraph. If the staff from Integral Energy
admit that it is their control tones that are causing the trouble,
perhaps he has some redress under the service conditions.

Additionally/alternatively HPM make a filter combo for the meter/fuse
box and power points that he might consider installing.

I would be curious to know which fans and lights (brands/models) are
affected.
Ceiling fans, floor fans, computer fans?
Are the lights plugged into power circuits or wired into ceiling
circuit?
And what suburb is he in.

 

[Phil Allison]

Phil Allison wrote:

No, he is hearing the effect on machinery/lights!

** He is hearing the actual tones - the ceiling fan converts the signal
into sound !!!!!

Okay, I missed the second paragraph.

** Pays to read a whole post AND the even the whole thread.

If the staff from Integral Energy
admit that it is their control tones that are causing the trouble,
perhaps he has some redress under the service conditions.

** Nope - control tones are a normal part of the AC supply system, have
been for 30 + years.

Additionally/alternatively HPM make a filter combo for the meter/fuse
box and power points that he might consider installing.

** The problem is in the lighting circuits.

I would be curious to know which fans and lights (brands/models) are
affected.
Ceiling fans, floor fans, computer fans?

** The OP said it was ceiling fans - did you read his post at all
??????

Are the lights plugged into power circuits or wired into ceiling
circuit?

** The dimmer is the problem - since the rms AC voltage is not changing.

Dimmers that detect the zero crossing without a prior LPF will modulate
their output.



........... Phil

 

[Leon Gross]

No, he is hearing the effect on machinery/lights!

Okay, I missed the second paragraph. If the staff from Integral Energy
admit that it is their control tones that are causing the trouble,
perhaps he has some redress under the service conditions.

Additionally/alternatively HPM make a filter combo for the meter/fuse
box and power points that he might consider installing.

I would be curious to know which fans and lights (brands/models) are
affected.
Ceiling fans, floor fans, computer fans?
Are the lights plugged into power circuits or wired into ceiling
circuit?
And what suburb is he in.

Not sure what brands the lights are but they are all 240V halogens (without
transformers.) All switches and dimmers are HPM I believe. The fans are by
Hunter pacific, in fact they say in the manual that noises may be heard at
night due to signals on the power line "This is normal" they say!!

The computer is running via a UPS, so no problems there. The lights and fans
exhibiting the problem are directly wired, I guess into the lighting
circuit. We are in Ruse, power lines are all underground.

Thanks for the tip on the power filter, they guy from Integral Energy said
he had never heard of any power filters being used to stop the
interference.....

Thanks to all! This info will help me when they say "the problem is normal,
nobody else complains, nothing we can do.."

Leon Gross

 

[David Sauer]

** He is hearing the actual tones - the ceiling fan converts the signal
into sound !!!!!

Now my memory has come back, the installation manual for our fans
actually had that stated on a plain A4 sheet that looked like it got
chucked in along the way.

These are labelled as Casablanca models (possibly Omega), BigW sell a
cheaper version which has less electronics and a hell of alot more
bearing / motor noise.

Did I ever mention that I believe that these tones are responsible for
also turning on one of these fans at around 5am during winter only.
After noticing the fan going for no reason I've placed items on there
and sure enough at around 5am for about 3 weeks during winter the
stupid fan starts.

They're the remote controlled type for fan and light. AN and E
straight to the fan unswitched, and no wall controller, just an IR
remote. Certainly makes easier installation.

 

[Phil Allison]

Now my memory has come back, the installation manual for our fans
actually had that stated on a plain A4 sheet that looked like it got
chucked in along the way.

These are labelled as Casablanca models (possibly Omega), BigW sell a
cheaper version which has less electronics and a hell of alot more
bearing / motor noise.

** The earlier version of the Casablanca ceiling fan from Omega is one I
am painfully familiar with.

Did I ever mention that I believe that these tones are responsible for
also turning on one of these fans at around 5am during winter only.
After noticing the fan going for no reason I've placed items on there
and sure enough at around 5am for about 3 weeks during winter the
stupid fan starts.

They're the remote controlled type for fan and light. AN and E
straight to the fan unswitched, and no wall controller, just an IR
remote. Certainly makes easier installation.

** The first model released maybe 8 or 9 years ago used RF instead of
IR.

A customer of mine ( an electrician by trade) worked for Omega Smeg and
did all the running around with theTaiwanese and Chinese factories to get
that remote controlled fan design into mass production. I did not know a
thing about it until the shit hit he fan ( pun intended) with the arrival of
the first batch of several thousand units in Sydney.

The RF control was so primitive it was highly vulnerable to any signals on
or near the same band ( 304 MHz ) or even radiated noise from a fluoro
light. Garage door openers, remote door bells and all manner of other
gadgets would set the fans spinning. Complaints came streaming in to Omega
and they referred them to their trouble-shooter the electrician who finally
realised he was way out of his depth and dumped the problem optimistically
onto me.

Once I had the schematics and a fan to play around with the nature of the
problem was obvious. The transmitter was not even crystal locked while the
receiver was a super-regenerative type with a wide bandwidth. The
transmitter modulation codes that controlled the fan involved only four
different patterns - one of which was a square wave !

When I explained to my customer there was no solution possible other than
a full re-design of the remote he had a fit. About $50,000 worth of fans
were involved and the stuff up was HIS fault.

He decided that abusing and monstering me to do the impossible to save
his hide was the proper way to go so a major falling out occurred. I
confirmed my diagnosis with the famous RC expert and Silicon Chip
contributor Bob Young who laughed out loud when I described the set up to
him over the phone.

I think Omega Smeg eventually flogged the fans off below cost to
unsuspecting dealers and through auctions.

Bad news.

Then they produced the IR version which I though had solved the previous
misbehaviour.



.......... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Thanks to all! This info will help me when they say "the problem is normal,
nobody else complains, nothing we can do.."

** Your complaint is with the dimmer and fan makers - as most such units
do not have a significant problem with tones.

The fans are bound to come from China where they likely have no way to
simulate the superimposed tones - hell most Chinese electrical goods
factories have dirt floors and are powered by Diesel generators running at
60 Hz !!



.......... Phil

 

[Arpit]

i guess you could try installing a line filter

 

[Phil Allison]

"Arpit" <

i guess you could try installing a line filter

** Where do you get one that knocks out the right frequencies on the
power and lighting ccts.

The tones vary in frequency from area to area and the notch filter
must match them.



.......... Phil

 

[Tony Pearce]

"Arpit" <

** Where do you get one that knocks out the right frequencies on the
power and lighting ccts.
The tones vary in frequency from area to area and the notch filter
must match them.

Why would you need a notch filter rather than a Low Pass Filter?

TonyP.

 

[Arpit]

hmm, good point. i guess your suggestion of just buying better
controllers was the best solution