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2.45GHz antennas, weatherproof, low cost?

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Folks,

Having serious quality issues with one vendor so we are looking for an
alternative. The antenna itself is fine but the connector quality is
causing issues.

Outdoor use in hot climate, Frequency 2.45GHz, the usual 1/2 design
that's about 4" long, somewhat flexible rubber outside, RP-SMA
connection, no swivel joint (because it'll just corrode and gunk up),
weather-resistant, UV proof, around $5/1k or less.

Any ideas?
 
M

miso

Jan 1, 1970
0
Folks,

Having serious quality issues with one vendor so we are looking for an
alternative. The antenna itself is fine but the connector quality is
causing issues.

Outdoor use in hot climate, Frequency 2.45GHz, the usual 1/2 design
that's about 4" long, somewhat flexible rubber outside, RP-SMA
connection, no swivel joint (because it'll just corrode and gunk up),
weather-resistant, UV proof, around $5/1k or less.

Any ideas?

Sounds like a customer to lose. Hopefully your name won't be associated
with the product.

I generally use L-Com for outdoor wifi antennas.

If you troll dslreports and find the WISP posts, you can see what works
and what doesn't.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
No kidding. I've had the RP-SMA connectors fall apart on me with
minimal bending. I have a fair collection of samples from various
vendors and as near as I can tell without destroying the whole lot,
the connectors are all junk.

What's inside:


$5 is a bit high. The typical 2dBi rubber ducky is $0.50 to $3.00
from various sources in China. The trick is finding one that doesn't
swivel. The connector will probably still be crap, but without a
swivel, might be a bit stronger. Non-swivel antennas:
<http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/724625166/Wi_Fi_flexible_colinear_2_4ghz.html>
<http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/540210897/Best_sell_2_4GHZ_Antenna_Frequency.html>
<http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/550421485/2_4GHz_antenna_WIFI_wireless_hign.html>
<http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/722905155/wifi_2_4ghz_antenna_with_RP.html>
etc. Plenty more.

For $5, you can probably get something custom made entirely from brass
tubing or semi-rigid 0.141 coax. I could probably design and build
something suitable, but it would probably be cheaper and better to
just RTV seal one of the above non-swivel rubber radomes, and call it
waterproof. Good luck on the connectors.

It's not about sealing. We've tried various other antennas. Unless they
are rated for outdoors use (and sometimes even if they are) the UV in
the southern areas of our country destroys them within months.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
miso said:
Sounds like a customer to lose. Hopefully your name won't be associated
with the product.

It's a very good client. I designed some of the electronics but this is
about an OEM part where it seems to be tough to get any decent quality
at a reasonable price.

On the one we have the rubber stick holds up well under UV exposure. On
the alternatives in the <<$10 price range the connectors hold up well
but the sun totally ruins the rubber part. So there must be good cheap
RP-SMA connectors and good cheap rubber parts. What I need is a product
where these two are combined.

I generally use L-Com for outdoor wifi antennas.

If you troll dslreports and find the WISP posts, you can see what works
and what doesn't.

I have been through Internet searches, haven't found. I have seen som,e
discussions on dslreport about outdoor routers and how to make your own
antennas but not about low cost UV-resistant off-the-shelf rubber versions.
 
U

Uwe Hercksen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
On the one we have the rubber stick holds up well under UV exposure. On
the alternatives in the <<$10 price range the connectors hold up well
but the sun totally ruins the rubber part. So there must be good cheap
RP-SMA connectors and good cheap rubber parts. What I need is a product
where these two are combined.

Hello,

rubber is a problem when exposed to intensive UV. Especially if the
rubber is not black but white or red.
Black rubber may hold well when it contains much black soot powder, but
the resulting conductivity may be a problem with 2.45 GHz.

Bye
 
T

tm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Uwe Hercksen said:
Hello,

rubber is a problem when exposed to intensive UV. Especially if the rubber
is not black but white or red.
Black rubber may hold well when it contains much black soot powder, but
the resulting conductivity may be a problem with 2.45 GHz.

Bye

Why not get a rubber one with a good connector and put a piece of UV
resistant heat shrink around it?

tm
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Uwe said:
Hello,

rubber is a problem when exposed to intensive UV. Especially if the
rubber is not black but white or red.


Well, car tires out here in super-hot California easily last 10 year,
even the fancy white-wall ones :)

Black rubber may hold well when it contains much black soot powder, but
the resulting conductivity may be a problem with 2.45 GHz.

It wouldn't be much of a problem if they placed a secondary non-laced
rubber ring or something wround the ground of the connector first. It
also does not have to be rubber, just somewhat flexible. Flexible in a
sense that it won't snap if someone accidentally bumps against it.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
tm said:
Why not get a rubber one with a good connector and put a piece of UV
resistant heat shrink around it?

Water, bird poop, dust and other gunk would collect up top where the
shrink tube ends, and the sun would still destroy that part. In many
areas where this gets deployed the sun comes from straight above at times.

But the main obstacle is the added labor for this process.
 
A

amdx

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, car tires out here in super-hot California easily last 10 year,
even the fancy white-wall ones :)



Arg, Fla. sun here.
I'm in discussions now with Sam's and Michelin about very minor rubber
checking. The tires have 21k miles 8/64 of the original 10/64 tread and
are just shy of 4 years old.
Took the car in for a slow leak in a rear tire. I watched the fellow go
out and look at a front tire, came back in and said he could not fix the
tire because it was rubber checked caused by the sun. Wanted to replace
all four tires for about $500.
I called Michelin, they said take it to another dealer for an
inspection report. The tires barely show rubber checking and Michelin
offered a 25% discount on new tires as a courtesy, but I ask the tech
"if they were your tires would you replace them?" He said no, drive them
another 3 or 4 years.
And then, add in the wife, " I don't unsafe tires... Arg
Mikek
PS, If your willing to pay up to $5.00, Buy a decent low priced antenna
and pay someone $2.00 to put two layers of heat shrink on.
Even the manufacturer.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
amdx said:
Arg, Fla. sun here.
I'm in discussions now with Sam's and Michelin about very minor rubber
checking. The tires have 21k miles 8/64 of the original 10/64 tread and
are just shy of 4 years old.
Took the car in for a slow leak in a rear tire. I watched the fellow go
out and look at a front tire, came back in and said he could not fix the
tire because it was rubber checked caused by the sun. Wanted to replace
all four tires for about $500.
I called Michelin, they said take it to another dealer for an
inspection report. The tires barely show rubber checking and Michelin
offered a 25% discount on new tires as a courtesy, but I ask the tech
"if they were your tires would you replace them?" He said no, drive them
another 3 or 4 years.
And then, add in the wife, " I don't unsafe tires... Arg


My previous set was Yokohama Geolandar tires. They held up very well but
at 10 years I replaced them because of age. Tread was still 50%, at
50,000 miles. Now I have Michelin LTX on there but since I am now a
consultant the car never spends the whole day in the glistening sun
anymore. Most days it's in the garage, so less of a concern.

Mikek
PS, If your willing to pay up to $5.00, Buy a decent low priced antenna
and pay someone $2.00 to put two layers of heat shrink on.
Even the manufacturer.

Ideally we'd like an antenna that's already UV-proof. We can't be the
only ones needing that.
 
M

miso

Jan 1, 1970
0
The rule of thumb for outdoor use is UV rated radome. It isn't cheap.

There is the right away and then there is cheap. It depends on your
reputation. Some companies like the old HP never sold shit because your
name is as good as your crappiest product. Other companies use branding
to sell shit. Market the crap under one name and the good stuff under
another.

I don't have the time to troll dslreports, but there are people on that
WISP forum who make a living doing outdoor wifi. I settled on L-comm
because it is what the installers use. At the time they were pointing
out which panels were prone to leaking.
 
M

miso

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ideally we'd like an antenna that's already UV-proof. We can't be the
only ones needing that.
There is no shortage of waterproof wifi antennas. Just not cheap ones.

I can't think of any outdoor wifi that wasn't TNC or N.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
miso said:
There is no shortage of waterproof wifi antennas. Just not cheap ones.

I can't think of any outdoor wifi that wasn't TNC or N.

Well, we have one but the connectors are junk. The FCC requires it to be
RP-SMA. Not that that makes a whole lotta sense but ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
miso said:
The rule of thumb for outdoor use is UV rated radome. It isn't cheap.

Nah. The car I drove in Europe (Audi) has a rubber antenna on the roof,
never fazed by the sun. The car is now 26 years old and the current
owner said it's still all fine.

There is the right away and then there is cheap. It depends on your
reputation. Some companies like the old HP never sold shit because your
name is as good as your crappiest product. Other companies use branding
to sell shit. Market the crap under one name and the good stuff under
another.

All I need is an antenna like there is on my Audi, but for 2.45GHz
instead of 88-108MHz. It works.

I don't have the time to troll dslreports, but there are people on that
WISP forum who make a living doing outdoor wifi. I settled on L-comm
because it is what the installers use. At the time they were pointing
out which panels were prone to leaking.

Leaking is under control. Right now it's the connectors that have gone
bad (used to be ok).
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Well, we have one but the connectors are junk. The FCC requires it to be
RP-SMA. Not that that makes a whole lotta sense but ...

I believe they require them to be "not commonly available" (not
specifically RP-SMA), in order to deter consumers from easily
replacing low-gain antennas with high-gain ones and thus increasing
the ERP beyond what the radios were actually certificated for.

I understand that trying to keep coming up with "not commonly
available" connectors has been a rather huge problem for manufacturers
over the years... as soon as they find a good one, lots of people
start using it for that purpose and all of a sudden it's "commonly
available" and can't be used :-(
[/QUOTE]

Well, with RP-SMA at least you are on the "good side", having honestly
made an attempt to discourage fudging. What more can you do?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
First you want waterproof. Now you want UV embitterment proof.
Anything else I need to know?

No, pretty much just what I mentioned in the first post, outdoors and
UV-proof.

See if you can get them to make it with silicon rubber.
<http://www.silicone.jp/e/catalog/pdf/rubber_e.pdf>


Thing is, we aren't quite high enough (yet) in quantities that custom
parts make sense. I am looking for something off-the-shelf. We can't be
the only ones with outdoor applications.

See section on "Weatherability". You also get ozone resistance as
part of the package. The commodity rubber ducky is polyurethane.
However, I couldn't find anyone that makes rubber ducky antennas from
silicone rubber, so that may be a dead end. You can get very good UV
proofing by simply spray painting the radome with clear acrylic.
<http://yarchive.net/electr/plastic_uv_resistances.html>
The problem is that if you bend it, it will crumble. So that's not
going to help.

Well, one vendor makes them but their connector quality fell apart.
Other than that they are ok.

Since you don't need to swivel, sliding a black (not white) fiberglass
or acrylic tube over the rubber ducky should work. Same trick with
the clear acrylic spray to make it UV proof. There will be some
detuning, but I doubt that it will be significant. You could probably
redesign the antenna yourself (using semi rigid coax) and a hard
plastic cylinder for the radome. However, I couldn't build it for $5
delivered.

More photos of rubber ducky wi-fi antennas:
<http://martybugs.net/wireless/rubberducky.cgi>

For your entertainment. A $99.00 rubber ducky 2dBi wi-fi antenna:
<http://products.pacificgeek.com/2_4ghz_2dbi_indoor_rubber_duck_antenna_1013127731.php>

Wonder what the profit margin on those is :)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
The black color or additive isn't really UV proofing. What it does is
prevent the UV rays from penetrating into the plasic. Under such
conditions, only the surface of the part deteriorates very slowly,
leaving the rest of the part intact.
<http://yarchive.net/electr/plastic_uv_resistances.html>

Some companies really know how to do this right. Our ChannelMaster TV
antenna is well over 20 years old, sits in the glistening sun all day,
yet none of the rigid and flexible plastic parts have deteriorated.
 
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