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0.5 volt signal to earth signal

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Hello I'm wondering if someone could help me with a wiring project. I have an agricultural implement to fit on the back of a tractor which has an electronic counter and uses a momentary earth signal to advance it. The problem being it has an unreliable source and counts when not required. I would like to use a source from something called an ISO 11783 socket in the tractor, this socket sends a 0.5 volt signal when a hydraulic lift switch is operated and I would like to use this signal to advance the counter. Obviously there is insufficient power to operate a relay so I was wondering if anyone could recommend a way in which this could be wired to work? Thanks in advance
 

KrisBlueNZ

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I don't think this ISO 11783 connector "sends a 0.5 volt signal when a hydraulic lift switch is operated". I searched for ISO 11783 and found this text on iso.org:
ISO 11783 as a whole specifies a serial data network for control and communications on forestry or agricultural tractors and mounted, semi-mounted, towed or self-propelled implements. Its purpose is to standardize the method and format of transfer of data between sensor, actuators, control elements and information-storage and display units, whether mounted on, or part of, the tractor or implement
Also on can-cia.org I found this:
The North American Agricultural and Construction Industries (CON/AG) published a framework for adding agriculture-specific messages, which lead to the ISO 11783 standardization activity. The virtual terminal specification within the ISO 11783 standard was pre-developed in Germany by the LAV non-profit organization (part of VDMA, Verband Deutscher Maschinen- und Anlagenbau). The ISO 11783 standard is also known as Isobus.
So I think that ISO 11783 (aka Isobus) is a serial data bus based on CAN (the serial bus designed for use in cars). In that case, I doubt that there will be a separate signal on the connector that relates to the hydraulic lift switch.

If you're absolutely sure that there is a signal like that, then I (or someone else here) can design a circuit to close a relay when this signal is present, if you can give some details of the signal - for example, is it referenced to the 0V rail of the electrical system? And how much current can it supply?
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Thank you, the best diagram I have managed to find on the internet is http://www.kramp.com/shop-gb/en/21686/581502/111390/AMHT3104001+Plug+male+7+pole+ISO+11786# it is written in German but it shows pin 4 is a hydraulic lift position signal as well as an earth on pin 7. I have tested these in the tractor and pin 4 shows a 0.48 volt signal on my multimeter when the hydraulic switch is activated but I'm not sure about the current it can supply or how to test it. I would describe myself as being fairly confident with vehicle electrics but not an electronics whizz!
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Hmm. Okay.

I have a suspicion that the signal on pin 7 is not a DC level, because 0.5V is not a very convenient or sensible voltage. I think the signal is probably a "rectangular wave" aka a "pulse stream", when the hydraulic lifter is in action. That is a voltage that alternates rapidly (probably hundreds or thousands of times per second) between 0V and some positive voltage, quite possibly +12V. If the signal is at +12V for 4% of the time, and at 0V for 96% of the time, the average (mean) voltage (which is what the multimeter will display) will be about 0.5V.

If the signal on pin 7 is like this, this makes it a lot easier to deal with. It won't be able to power a relay, but we might be able to use something simple like an optocoupler to do what you want.

So I would like you to test this signal to see whether it is a pulse stream or not. The easiest way is with an oscilloscope, but I guess you don't have a portable one of those. But you can make up a simple circuit to test it, with a diode and a capacitor, and your multimeter. It would be best to solder the diode and capacitor onto the socket, clip the multimeter on, and take the whole assembly out to the tractor. Then, watch the multimeter reading as you activate the hydraulic lifter. If it's a pulse train like I suspect, the multimeter reading will show the positive voltage (minus a little bit).

Do you feel comfortable doing this? If so, I'll describe the components and the circuit.
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Yes that seems to make sense, I presume we are still talking about the signal from 'pin 4' as pin seven I think is just a general earth. I would like to have a go at testing this if you could help me. I would have to get the components though as apart from a bag of resistors I don't have many electronic components lying around the workshop!
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Right, sorry, pin 4 is the signal.

You'll need a small-signal diode such as a 1N914 or 1N4148. These should be on the shelf at Radio Shack. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062576. I can't believe they want USD 1.99 for a diode that costs less than a cent each in large quantities!

You need a small capacitor between 10 nF (0.01 µF) and 100 nF (0.1 µF). The actual value is not critical at all. A voltage rating of 50V or more is fine. Any of the following parts are suitable, and are flagged as "in-store":
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062363
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062364
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103628
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102514
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062365
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102589
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103629
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102517
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102516
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062375 (pack of 100 assorted).

I've given links to Radio Shack components on the assumption that you're in the U.S. If you aren't, these links will at least tell you what you're looking for. There is a place in your profile for you to put your location.

You may be able to find suitable components in your workshop. Perhaps scrounge them off an old board from a TV or something. Post photos if you like.

I'm also assuming that your multimeter is a digital one with a 10 megohm input resistance on the voltage ranges.

Here's the circuit in ASCII art:
Code:
4 ----|>|----------- multimeter positive
             |
           -----
           -----
             |
7 ------------------ multimeter negative

Here is the circuit as a list of nodes, i.e. sets of points to be connected together.

1. Connector pin 4; anode of diode (the end without the stripe).
2. Cathode of diode (the stripe end); one side of the capacitor; multimeter positive.
3. Connector pin 7; other side of the capacitor; multimeter negative.
 

duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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Spiratronics look good. In Derbyshire, there is R.F. Potts of Derby (not far from train or bus station) or Bowood of Chesterfield. Cricklewood are close to the railway station and Maplin are in several towns.
CPC have no postage charge if ordered on the internet but they bombard you wth catalogs.

What tractor and machine do you have? Are they far from derbyshire/
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Yes, Spiratronics looks good. Good information on their web site. Yes you could get a LS4N46 optocoupler. I had a feeling you were in the U.K. Tractors bring to mind Farmer Palmer - "Get orfff moy laaaand" :) I'm glad to see duke37 on this thread. He'll sort it out!
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Spiratronics look good. In Derbyshire, there is R.F. Potts of Derby (not far from train or bus station) or Bowood of Chesterfield. Cricklewood are close to the railway station and Maplin are in several towns.
CPC have no postage charge if ordered on the internet but they bombard you wth catalogs.

What tractor and machine do you have? Are they far from derbyshire/
Hi I'm based down in Dorset. I have a New Holland T6040 tractor and the drill is an ageing Vaderstad 30s these are quite rare as it is a mounted version of the bigger trailed drills. It is quite a nice little machine the problem being the tramline counter advances via a magnetic switch on the meter drive wheel so every time the wheel drops in a hollow the tramlines advance so you have to concentrate very hard as to which bout you are on and even more annoying if your doing the tramline run!
P.S my father has a Nuffield 460 in the shed ;) family owned from new.
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Yes, Spiratronics looks good. Good information on their web site. Yes you could get a LS4N46 optocoupler. I had a feeling you were in the U.K. Tractors bring to mind Farmer Palmer - "Get orfff moy laaaand" :) I'm glad to see duke37 on this thread. He'll sort it out!
It looks like I might be going to town later on and I could go to our local maplin store would these parts be correct
http://www.maplin.co.uk/search?text=1n4148&x=0&y=0
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/resin-dipped-ceramic-001uf-capacitor-ra44x
also any of these
http://www.maplin.co.uk/c/components/leds-and-displays/opto-couplers
P.s you have my accent of to a t!:D
 

duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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Kris has too much confidence in my ability.
I will talk to my brother about the equipment although he is better with the big hammer than the soldering iron.

Dorset is a bit far for me to drive ! And my scope is too heavy to carry on the train.

The Nuffield pictured is a petrol/TVO model which is similar to what we had as the first post war tractor. A vast improvement on the standard Fordson and would go like stink in 5th gear. In those days, lorries were limited to 20mph. Good to practice double declutching also.

My brother has a Marshall and one which is called Joseph because of its coat of many colours, it is a mixture of Nuffield and Marshall.
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Right just got back from town and have wired the plug, a 150ma switching diode and a ceramic disc 0.1uf capacitor as per photo.
I have connected my multimeter up but obviously don't know what I'm looking for yet. I have posted a photo of that as well. I cant get any reading from the ohms, but the 200mv show a reading which very slowly drops away after the switch is deactivated.
 

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KrisBlueNZ

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OK, it looks like my guess was wrong. So on the 200 mV range, you see a reading of 002.7 while the hydraulic lifter is running, and it slowly decays to zero when the lifter stops? In that case, it really is just a 0.5V DC signal. Bummer.

So there's a +12V rail on pin 6 of that connector? And pin 4 goes to +0.5V relative to pin 7 when the hydraulic lifter is running?

connector.jpg
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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OK, it looks like my guess was wrong. So on the 200 mV range, you see a reading of 002.7 while the hydraulic lifter is running, and it slowly decays to zero when the lifter stops? In that case, it really is just a 0.5V DC signal. Bummer.

So there's a +12V rail on pin 6 of that connector? And pin 4 goes to +0.5V relative to pin 7 when the hydraulic lifter is running?

View attachment 12405
Yes that is all correct unfortunately. The other pins I think give true ground speed via a radar mounted underneath the tractor, the actual wheel speed and pto ( power take off shaft speed) and then our pin 4 showing hydraulics up or down and I think pin 5 is hydraulics position this is read in the cab on a LCD screen as a value between 0 & 100% unless there is something to read a 0.5v signal I'm guessing it's getting rather complicated!
 

KrisBlueNZ

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No, it's not too difficult. I'll draw something up within the next day or so.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Sorry for the delay! I hope this will still be useful.

Here's the design I've come up with. It seems to work OK in simulation. You may need to adjust it once you've built it up, to accommodate component variations. I will explain this below.

ep268193.gif

The circuit uses three transistors, and some resistors, capacitors and diodes. It is powered from the +12V source on the left; the top and bottom rails need to be connected to pins 6 and 7, respectively, of your 7-pin connector.

The circuit's input is on the node labelled Vin, at the left end of R1. This needs to be connected to pin 4 of your 7-pin connector.

At the right hand end, the inductor labelled Relay_coil represents the coil of the relay. This coil should be rated for 12V DC and should have a power requirement of 0.4W or less (equivalent to a resistance of 360 ohms or higher).

Here's a circuit description.

The input voltage passes through R1, and is clipped by D1 and D2. These components protect Q1 from noise, surges, or spikes on the signal. R2 pulls Q1's base to around 0V when nothing is connected to R1.

Q1 operates as an emitter follower; its emitter follows the input voltage, with a constant positive offset of around 0.7V.

At the base of Q2, this voltage is combined with feedback via R8 from the output. When Q2's base reaches about 0.65V, Q2 conducts and forward-biases Q3, which starts to conduct and pull its collector voltage upwards. This increasing voltage is coupled through R8 and reinforces the increasing voltage on Q2's base, i.e. it provides positive feedback, which causes the Q2/Q3 pair to quickly switch to fully conducting. Q3 energises the relay coil. In this state, Q1's emitter voltage must fall to a lower voltage before Q2 will turn OFF. This makes the circuit immune to noise around the decision threshold.

The graph shows the input voltage in green, and the voltage on Q2's base in blue. The input voltage is a triangle wave from 0V to 0.5V and back again, with a low-amplitude sinewave superimposed on it, to simulate noise.

The points marked A and B on the blue trace correspond to the turn-on and turn-off of the relay. At point A, when Q3 conducts and energises the relay, extra current through R8 causes Q2's base voltage to jump up sharply. At point B, when Q1's emitter voltage has dropped low enough for Q2 to turn OFF despite the extra current through R8, Q3 turns OFF and the current through R8 disappears, causing a sharp falling edge on Q2's base voltage, marked B.

The circuit activates the relay at an input voltage of around 380 mV, and deactivates it at an input voltage of around 220 mV.

The voltage thresholds are dependent on the characteristics of the transistors used, which vary somewhat due to manufacturing tolerances. So you may find that the voltage thresholds are not accurate when you've built your circuit. In this case, you can replace R4 and R5 with a 50k preset potentiometer aka trimpot, with its wiper to Q2's base, and the other ends to Q1's emitter and the 0V rail. This will allow you to adjust the threshold voltages up and down, but not the distance between the upper and lower trigger voltages.

You can calibrate the circuit using a potentiometer to supply an adjustable voltage to the input. Set the trimpot initially about half way. Monitor the input voltage while you adjust the potentiometer, and see what voltages the circuit switches ON and OFF at. Adjust the trimpot so that both thresholds are comfortably inside the 0V/0.5V range of the input signal. Probably ideally they should be centred around 0.25V. If they are too far apart, you can increase R8 (to 1.2 megohms or 1.5 megohms) to make the high and low voltage points closer together.

I hope this makes some sense. Let me know if you need more info :)

Again, sorry for the delay.
 

colliedog

Apr 12, 2014
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Kris, please don't apologise, I'm very grateful for your help! Like I have already said I'm a little green to the world of circuit building, but I have put my vehicle electrics thinking cap on and have studied your diagram and have pretty much got my head around it. However I do have a couple of daft questions! mainly with v2 and v3. Is that a straight connection from the bottom rail with vin and r1or do the circles with the +&- represent anything apart from a dc current? Also I presume I will build it all on some circuit board? so what would you recommend for this? Sorry again for the daft questions but I'm afraid your teaching the naïve!
 
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