0.20 delay in 6v control circuit

[Bob Fraser]

I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?

Lots, but they sprawl all over the place given the sparse info here. Is this a
0.20 second delay?? And assuming this is a mechanical switch right now feeding
into some circuit, is it a momentary type? In other words, once switched and
released, does your relay continue being activated? Or does the relay only stay
activated so long as the switch is held down? If the later, do you also want a
..2 (sec?) delay after the release, too? There are other questions, as well.

It helps a lot if you spend a little time being as detailed as you possibly can.
It's your question, after all, and the proximity to what you need will depend on
how well you have expressed yourself.

Jon

 

[Robert Monsen]

I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?

The simplest solution would be to use an RC circuit:


6V
|
|
C|
C| Relay Coil
C|
|
-------.
47k | |
|/ |
Input -----/\/\/---o----o-----------| -----
| | |> /^\ diode
\ | | -----
100k / | + | |
\ ### | |
/ --- 22uF | |
| | cap | |
'----o-------------o------'
GND
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de

The RC keeps the voltage down for 200ms.

This won't cause it to delay when the input goes to 0, because
the transistor will keep the base voltage at about 0.8V. When you
drop the input, it'll immediately drop off.

The 100k resistor is there so the cap drains down to ground when the
thing is turned off. It takes 3 or 4 seconds to drain all the way down,
so the startup delay will be affected if its turned off and back on in
less that that time.

The diode protects the transistor from getting whacked by a reverse
transient when you shut off the voltage.

The accuracy is +-20% or thereabouts, due to the accuracy of the
capacitor. If you use a 100k trimmer instead of the 47k resistor, you
can adjust this to compensate if you care.

If you need an exact delay each time, regardless of cycle time, you can
use a monostable like a 555 to keep the signal from getting through to
the relay for a bit. It's also a fairly simple circuit. Let me know if
you need to see it.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Bob]

Thanks Robert.

I like the idea of being able to vary the time constant with the 100K
trimmer. Is that an NPN transistor? I will go to radio shack
tomorrow, pick up the parts and give it a try,
Thanks

 

[Robert Monsen]

Thanks Robert.

I like the idea of being able to vary the time constant with the 100K
trimmer. Is that an NPN transistor? I will go to radio shack
tomorrow, pick up the parts and give it a try,
Thanks

Yes, it's an NPN transistor. Any small transistor should work. A 2N2222
or 2N3904 or 2N4401, for example.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Terry Pinnell]

I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?

As Jonathan pointed out, your spec is vague. But, assuming the switch
is a basic SPST type, making permanent contact, then the simplest
approach is to place a small resistor between switch and relay coil,
and a large capacitor to ground. Trial and error is probably the
easiest way to arrive at satisfactory component values. But assuming
the 6V relay has a coil resistance of say 400 ohms, and pulls in when
the applied voltage reaches say 5V, then this circuit would do what
you ask:

http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/RCdelay.gif

 

[Bob]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
Hope this clarifies the picture:
Control voltage is 6v.
The switch is basic permanent contact type.
The relay is a Potter & Brumfield PB336-ND with 4.5 volt pull, 0.3
volt drop. Relay current is 60mA and coil Power is 360mW.
The switch normally stays on for 1 second. Then after another second
we would like the circuit ready to close the switch again.

Bob

 

[Robert Monsen]

Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:

6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |>
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND

* Schottky Diode

created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de

The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so

V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )

thus

t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s

Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Bob]

Thanks again Robert,

Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.

Bob

 

[Robert Monsen]

(fixed top posting below. Please post replys after the main body of
text. It's just convention here)

Thanks again Robert,

Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.

Bob

You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A Schottky
diode would be nice where the * is (it doesn't have to carry any
appreciable current, so any of them will do) but isn't necessary. It
just makes the recovery time a bit better, because it has a lower
forward voltage drop.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Bob]

(fixed top posting below. Please post replys after the main body of
text. It's just convention here)


You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A Schottky
diode would be nice where the * is (it doesn't have to carry any
appreciable current, so any of them will do) but isn't necessary. It
just makes the recovery time a bit better, because it has a lower
forward voltage drop.

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)

Bob

 

[Terry Pinnell]

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)

If you've wired it up correctly, then it should perform as Bob said.
(Although it gives a delay of about 0.33 s with that 220uF cap; lower
it to about 140uF to get the 0.2 s you specified.)

Have you connected the protective diode across the relay the wrong way
around? Its cathode (usually the marked end) should be connected to
6V.

 

[Bob]

If you've wired it up correctly, then it should perform as Bob said.
(Although it gives a delay of about 0.33 s with that 220uF cap; lower
it to about 140uF to get the 0.2 s you specified.)

Have you connected the protective diode across the relay the wrong way
around? Its cathode (usually the marked end) should be connected to
6V.

I used silicone diodes in both locations and they are in the correct
orientation. The one accross the relay has the marked end (cathode)
on the +6v side. Is there a way I can check to see the Diode is
marked correctly?

 

[John Fields]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
Hope this clarifies the picture:
Control voltage is 6v.
The switch is basic permanent contact type.
The relay is a Potter & Brumfield PB336-ND with 4.5 volt pull, 0.3
volt drop. Relay current is 60mA and coil Power is 360mW.
The switch normally stays on for 1 second. Then after another second
we would like the circuit ready to close the switch again.

---
Still vague.

Do you mean that at the same time the switch turns off you also want
the relay to turn off, then after the switch stays off for at least
one second you'd like the relay to come on 0.2s after the switch turns
on again?


Like this?:

|<----1s---->|<----1s---->|
____________ _______
SWITCH ______| |____________ _ _ |

0.2s --->| |<--- 0.2s --->| |<---
_________ ____
RELAY __________| |____________ _ _ ___|


What if the switch turns on again before it's been off for one second?

 

[Bob]

---
Still vague.

Do you mean that at the same time the switch turns off you also want
the relay to turn off, then after the switch stays off for at least
one second you'd like the relay to come on 0.2s after the switch turns
on again?


Like this?:

|<----1s---->|<----1s---->|
____________ _______
SWITCH ______| |____________ _ _ |

0.2s --->| |<--- 0.2s --->| |<---
_________ ____
RELAY __________| |____________ _ _ ___|


What if the switch turns on again before it's been off for one second?

Exactly. When the switch turns off I want the relay to turn off, the
switch will be off for at least one second. Then when the switch is
turned on I want the relay to be turned on 0.2 seconds later.

The switch will not be turned on again for at least 1 second.

Thanks

 

[Robert Monsen]

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)

Bob

When you close the switch, it should take 0.2 seconds to charge up the
capacitor enough to turn on the transistor. Thus, assuming the relay is
open when you start, the following should happen:

1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed
0.2 seconds
3) relay closed
....
4) switch open, relay opens immediately.

It sounds like you have the 10k resistor and 220uF capacitor swapped.
That would cause it to

1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed, relay immediately on
0.2 seconds (or less!)
3) relay open
....
4) switch open, relay still open

From your reply, I can't quite figure out whether that is what you are
seeing, though.

(You probably know this, but closed means passing current, open means
unable to pass current.)

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Bob]

When you close the switch, it should take 0.2 seconds to charge up the
capacitor enough to turn on the transistor. Thus, assuming the relay is
open when you start, the following should happen:

1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed
0.2 seconds
3) relay closed
...
4) switch open, relay opens immediately.

It sounds like you have the 10k resistor and 220uF capacitor swapped.
That would cause it to

1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed, relay immediately on
0.2 seconds (or less!)
3) relay open
...
4) switch open, relay still open

From your reply, I can't quite figure out whether that is what you are
seeing, though.

(You probably know this, but closed means passing current, open means
unable to pass current.)

Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.

Bob Fraser

 

[Robert Monsen]

Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.

Bob Fraser

Ok. I'm glad it works for you. I'm suprised the other transistor didn't
work, though. It's just a 2N2222 equivalent. Maybe it got toasted at
some point, or was just bad to start with.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\]

[snip]

Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.

I've mentione this in the past. The 2N3904 is only capable of handling
100 mA max, and that's on a good day. Because the circuit had a 10k
resistor to its base, it was a really bad day, there wasn't enough
current for the transistor (2N3904 or even a 2N4401) to fully saturate,
and the relay gets current starved also.

Remember that this is 6V, so it takes twice as much current to pull in a
given relay compared to 12V, and the relay coil is 1/4 as much DC
resistance. That puts four times the demand on the transistor compared
to 12V.

So use a decent transistor such as the 2N4401, or better yet a 2N2219 or
2N3053. And feed the base enough current to keep the transistor fully
saturated. If you can't reduce the base resistor to 1k or so, then use
a pair of transistors, but if you connect them darlington, the voltage
drop collector to emitter will be at least 1V, maybe more. You can
connect the collector of the first transistor to a 1k resistor, and then
to the +6V, and that will help.

 

[Robert Monsen]

[snip]

Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.

I've mentione this in the past. The 2N3904 is only capable of handling
100 mA max, and that's on a good day. Because the circuit had a 10k
resistor to its base, it was a really bad day, there wasn't enough
current for the transistor (2N3904 or even a 2N4401) to fully saturate,
and the relay gets current starved also.

Remember that this is 6V, so it takes twice as much current to pull in a
given relay compared to 12V, and the relay coil is 1/4 as much DC
resistance. That puts four times the demand on the transistor compared
to 12V.

So use a decent transistor such as the 2N4401, or better yet a 2N2219 or
2N3053. And feed the base enough current to keep the transistor fully
saturated. If you can't reduce the base resistor to 1k or so, then use
a pair of transistors, but if you connect them darlington, the voltage
drop collector to emitter will be at least 1V, maybe more. You can
connect the collector of the first transistor to a 1k resistor, and then
to the +6V, and that will help.

The OP mentioned that the relay was closing, then after .2 s, was
opening again. If the transistor was toasted by excess current, that
wouldn't happen, and the relay would probably just stay open or closed.
Also, if there isn't enough current, a relay simply won't close. It
definitely won't close for a short while, and then to open back up,
since relays take more current to close initially than to stay closed.

In addition, the TIP transistor has a much lower beta than the 2N2222 he
was using, so if anything, the current issue should have gotten somewhat
worse with the larger transistor.

Simulating with 6V, a 2N2222 and a 5V relay coil with a small 100 ohm
resistance, I got max about 30mW in the 2N2222. If the relay was
moderately big, then the 60mA might not be enough, but if this were
true, using the TIP wouldn't help.

One possibility is a misconnected transistor (2N2222s have non-standard,
CBE pinouts). I haven't analyzed why a reverse connected transistor
would do this, though. Seems like it would just have a much smaller
beta, and thus the relay would stay open. The other possibility, that I
mentioned before, is a reversal of the timing cap/timing resistor. That
fits his description (the relay energizing initially for a short while,
then opening until the next cycle.)

However, without more information, it's a mystery.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.