where to attach the ESD wrist stap's crocodile clip

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Buttered, Dec 31, 2007.

  1. Buttered

    Buttered Guest

    Hello and happy new year in advance. :)
    I have a question here. where would be the suggested spot to attach
    the crocodile clip of an Electrostatic discharge (ESD) wrist strap. I
    was thinking about attaching the crocodile clip to the exposed metal
    of any electrical appliances such as my PC's power supply while its
    plug remained on the power receptacle. Would this be working?
    Buttered, Dec 31, 2007
    #1
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  2. Buttered wrote:
    >
    > Hello and happy new year in advance. :)
    > I have a question here. where would be the suggested spot to attach
    > the crocodile clip of an Electrostatic discharge (ESD) wrist strap. I
    > was thinking about attaching the crocodile clip to the exposed metal
    > of any electrical appliances such as my PC's power supply while its
    > plug remained on the power receptacle. Would this be working?



    ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    it's always easy to find a proper ground.

    --
    Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
    prove it.
    Member of DAV #85.

    Michael A. Terrell
    Central Florida
    Michael A. Terrell, Dec 31, 2007
    #2
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  3. On Dec 31, 6:27 pm, Buttered <> wrote:
    > Hello and happy new year in advance. :)
    > I have a question here. where would be the suggested spot to attach
    > the crocodile clip of an Electrostatic discharge (ESD) wrist strap. I
    > was thinking about attaching the crocodile clip to the exposed metal
    > of any electrical appliances such as my PC's power supply while its
    > plug remained on the power receptacle. Would this be working?


    That will work, so long as your appliance is always plugged in.
    Better to get one of the proper ESD earth plug attachments that plug
    into the power point though, then you can connect your mat and wrist
    strap etc properly in a more permanent setup.

    Dave.
    David L. Jones, Dec 31, 2007
    #3
  4. Buttered

    Clint Sharp Guest

    In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    <> writes
    > ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    >cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    >

    Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    outlets?
    --
    Clint Sharp
    Clint Sharp, Dec 31, 2007
    #4
  5. Buttered

    neon VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,325
    the answer is earth ground . there are many grounds chasiss grounds power gnd signal grounds but the srtap got to go to EARTH becasuse you walk on it. and generate you know what.
    neon, Dec 31, 2007
    #5
  6. Clint Sharp wrote:
    >
    > In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    > <> writes
    > > ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    > >them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    > >cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    > >workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    > >it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    > >

    > Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    > not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    > outlets?



    Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    monthly

    --
    Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
    prove it.
    Member of DAV #85.

    Michael A. Terrell
    Central Florida
    Michael A. Terrell, Dec 31, 2007
    #6
  7. Buttered

    Jamie Guest

    Michael A. Terrell wrote:

    > Clint Sharp wrote:
    >
    >>In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    >><> writes
    >>
    >>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >>>them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    >>>cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >>>workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >>>it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    >>>

    >>
    >>Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    >>not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    >>outlets?

    >
    >
    >
    > Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    > prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    > solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    > to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    > monthly
    >


    Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes. They must be clamped or
    use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..

    Yeah I know, piss off.

    --
    "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

    http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
    Jamie, Jan 1, 2008
    #7
  8. Buttered

    Buttered Guest

    On Dec 31 2007, 3:27 pm, Buttered <> wrote:

    Thank you guys for helping. Really appreciate all the infos given.
    Have a great new year ahead.
    Buttered, Jan 1, 2008
    #8
  9. Buttered

    Ian Malcolm Guest

    Jamie wrote:

    > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >
    >> Clint Sharp wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    >>> <> writes
    >>>
    >>>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >>>> them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or
    >>>> make a
    >>>> cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >>>> workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >>>> it's always easy to find a proper ground.

    In an emergency, if you are wearing natural fibre and leather shoes, its
    good enough to clip yourself to the *UNGROUNDED* computer (google
    equipotential bonding), just *dont* put any parts down anywhere other
    than on or inside the case once you have taken them out of their
    antistatic bags. OTOH if you are wearing a polyester shellsuit over
    nylon, even wrapping yourself in grounded tinfoil probably wont save
    your chips . . . (unless the men in white coats take you away before you
    get your computer open)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    >>> not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    >>> outlets?

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    >> prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    >> solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    >> to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    >> monthly
    >>

    >
    > Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes. They must be clamped or
    > use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..
    >
    > Yeah I know, piss off.
    >

    Well its not for electrical supply or safety ground so how does it come
    under the code? Its only for ESD protection ;-)

    --
    Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
    ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
    [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
    Ian Malcolm, Jan 1, 2008
    #9
  10. Jamie wrote:
    >
    > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >
    > > Clint Sharp wrote:
    > >
    > >>In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    > >><> writes
    > >>
    > >>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    > >>>them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    > >>>cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    > >>>workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    > >>>it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    > >>not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    > >>outlets?

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    > > prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    > > solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    > > to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    > > monthly
    > >

    >
    > Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes. They must be clamped or
    > use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..
    >
    > Yeah I know, piss off.
    >
    > --
    > "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"



    That lobotomy removed any chance of clear thought on your part,
    Jamie. A plant wide ESD abatement system has absolutely NOTHING to do
    with the National Electrical Code. It was an entirely seperate system,
    with cluster of benches connected to the building's steel skeliton, and
    every support column was grounded.

    As usual, you sopt nonsense, or ourrright lies to people who din't
    know any better.


    --
    Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
    prove it.
    Member of DAV #85.

    Michael A. Terrell
    Central Florida
    Michael A. Terrell, Jan 1, 2008
    #10
  11. Buttered

    Jamie Guest

    Michael A. Terrell wrote:

    > Jamie wrote:
    >
    >>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Clint Sharp wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    >>>><> writes
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >>>>>them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    >>>>>cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >>>>>workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >>>>>it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    >>>>not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    >>>>outlets?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    >>>prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    >>>solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    >>>to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    >>>monthly
    >>>

    >>
    >>Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes. They must be clamped or
    >>use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..
    >>
    >>Yeah I know, piss off.
    >>
    >>--
    >>"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

    >
    >
    >
    > That lobotomy removed any chance of clear thought on your part,
    > Jamie. A plant wide ESD abatement system has absolutely NOTHING to do
    > with the National Electrical Code. It was an entirely seperate system,
    > with cluster of benches connected to the building's steel skeliton, and
    > every support column was grounded.
    >
    > As usual, you sopt nonsense, or ourrright lies to people who din't
    > know any better.
    >
    >

    No, sorry, you are very mistaken...


    You sorry miss guided sole.



    --
    http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
    Jamie, Jan 1, 2008
    #11
  12. Buttered

    Don Bowey Guest

    On 1/1/08 12:06 PM, in article 9%wej.35$, "Jamie"
    <> wrote:

    > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >
    >> Jamie wrote:
    >>
    >>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Clint Sharp wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    >>>>> <> writes
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >>>>>> them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or make a
    >>>>>> cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >>>>>> workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >>>>>> it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    >>>>> not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    >>>>> outlets?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    >>>> prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    >>>> solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    >>>> to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    >>>> monthly
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes. They must be clamped or
    >>> use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..
    >>>
    >>> Yeah I know, piss off.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> That lobotomy removed any chance of clear thought on your part,
    >> Jamie. A plant wide ESD abatement system has absolutely NOTHING to do
    >> with the National Electrical Code. It was an entirely seperate system,
    >> with cluster of benches connected to the building's steel skeliton, and
    >> every support column was grounded.
    >>
    >> As usual, you sopt nonsense, or ourrright lies to people who din't
    >> know any better.
    >>
    >>

    > No, sorry, you are very mistaken...


    There you go spouting answers again without knowing anything about the
    topic.

    ESD is not a topic of the NEC. It isn't there, because it doesn't belong
    there.

    Don't bother posting a retort without an Article number of the NEC.

    >
    >
    > You sorry miss guided sole.


    That should be "You sorry misguided sole," unless you were addressing Miss
    Guided, whom I do not know.

    >
    >
    Don Bowey, Jan 1, 2008
    #12
  13. Jamie wrote:
    >
    > No, sorry, you are very mistaken...



    Only in thinking that there is any hope for you to ever admit to your
    vast, and unending ignorance.



    > You sorry miss guided sole.




    Really? Which foot are you talking about? The right one is always
    swollen, from the diabetes, but it isn't really misguided.

    You are definitely misguided, but I'm beginning to doubt that you
    have a soul.



    --
    Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
    prove it.
    Member of DAV #85.

    Michael A. Terrell
    Central Florida
    Michael A. Terrell, Jan 1, 2008
    #13
  14. Buttered

    whit3rd Guest

    On Dec 30 2007, 11:27 pm, Buttered <> wrote:
    >
    > I have a question here. where would be the suggested spot to attach
    > the crocodile clip of an Electrostatic discharge (ESD) wrist strap. I
    > was thinking about attaching the crocodile clip to the exposed metal
    > of any electrical appliances such as my PC's power supply


    Because the PC might startup while you are working on it, the
    usual recommendation (this from Apple) is to make a dummy power
    cord that ONLY connects wallplug ground to the power socket, then
    clip your ground strap to any grounded chassis part.

    What I always did, was to grasp the chassis with my left hand while
    I pulled the RAM stick out of the pouch with my right hand and
    installed
    it.

    If it isn't a Macintosh, I understand that power-on is not something
    that could happen under time/clock control, you'd have to
    bump a switch. Is that still true?
    whit3rd, Jan 2, 2008
    #14
  15. Buttered

    w_tom Guest

    On Dec 31 2007, 8:29 pm, Buttered <> wrote:
    > Thank you guys for helping. Really appreciate all the infos given.
    > Have a great new year ahead.


    I don't see where your question was answered. The wrist strap
    protects two ways. First, best protection is to discharge your body.
    Charges exist between bottom of shoes and your body. Those charges
    must be discharged. That means an electrical circuit. Damage occurs
    because that discharge circuit is down arm and fingers, through
    electronics, down table, into floor, and connected to bottom of
    shoes. The wrist strap connects to something so that those charges
    are connected to bottom of shoes before touching electronics.

    Remember, many of the items you consider non-electrical conductors
    are conductors to that static electric discharge current.

    Second solution is to charge the electronics to same potential as
    your body. Therefore a wrist strap connected to electronics chassis
    equalizes voltages. Same is accomplished by touching the chassis
    before touching electronics. If the chassis is connected to floor and
    bottom of shoes, then while equalizing voltages, body is also
    dischargee. Second solution can also do both solutions better. Some
    will place a conductive plastic mat beneath the electronics connected
    to another mat on floor (beneath shoes). Then the wrist strap
    connected to table top conductive plastic makes a best wrist strap
    protection.

    Point is that wrist strap must do one (or even better, both) of two
    solutions.
    w_tom, Jan 2, 2008
    #15
  16. Buttered

    ehsjr Guest

    Jamie wrote:
    > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    >
    >> Clint Sharp wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Michael A. Terrell
    >>> <> writes
    >>>
    >>>> ATX class computers are supposed to be unplugged when you work on
    >>>> them, because of the +5 VDC power supply. Find another ground, or
    >>>> make a
    >>>> cord using only the ground pin to plug into an outlet on your
    >>>> workbench. My workbenches all have metal outlet boxes and covers, so
    >>>> it's always easy to find a proper ground.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Switch the socket or PSU off (providing it has a physical switch on it,
    >>> not too many do anymore)? Or does the US not have switched mains
    >>> outlets?

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Rarely. You can use a switched outlet strip, but for a workbench I
    >> prefer a better grounding system. At my last job we ran #8 AWG bare,
    >> solid copper wire (.12949" Dia.), along rows of benches. We bonded them
    >> to the building's ground system, All joints were soldered, and tested
    >> monthly
    >>

    >
    > Soldering joints is not legal electrical codes.


    That is not true. Solder can be used:

    From 2005 NEC 110.14 (B)
    "Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices
    identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering
    with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first
    be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically
    secure without solder and then be soldered."

    There are specific cases where solder is prohibited by
    the NEC, but except for those, it is is legal. Did
    you have the specific cases in mind?

    Ed

    > They must be clamped or
    > use of a legal connecting device like wire nuts, busbar, terminals etc..
    >




    > Yeah I know, piss off.
    >
    ehsjr, Jan 2, 2008
    #16
  17. Buttered

    Clint Sharp Guest

    In message
    <>,
    whit3rd <> writes
    >On Dec 30 2007, 11:27 pm, Buttered <> wrote:
    >If it isn't a Macintosh, I understand that power-on is not something
    >that could happen under time/clock control, you'd have to
    >bump a switch. Is that still true?

    No. Not been true for some time, at least under BIOS control if not OS.
    Usually under the power management settings of the BIOS you can set an
    on-time on a lot of machines. Excellent fun if you know that the user
    has the PC in their bedroom.

    --
    Clint Sharp
    Clint Sharp, Jan 2, 2008
    #17
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