SPICE netlist to schematic?

Discussion in 'CAD' started by Chaos Master, Oct 4, 2003.

  1. Chaos Master

    Chaos Master Guest

    Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a schematic
    (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?
    --
    E-mail address is POTENTIAL spam bot FODDER. Please reply to the group!
    Chaos Master, Oct 4, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Chaos Master wrote:
    > Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    > schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?


    Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    this?

    However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 4, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:34:04 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
    <> wrote:

    >Chaos Master wrote:
    >> Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    >> schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >
    >Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    >this?


    I find I can do this relatively easily on paper for individual stages,
    but it does get increasingly difficult the more components/stages
    there are.
    --

    "Windows [n.], A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch
    to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a four bit
    microprocessor and produced by a two bit company."
    Paul Burridge, Oct 4, 2003
    #3
  4. Chaos Master

    Chaos Master Guest

    Kevin Aylward engraved with a +2 athame:
    > Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    > this?
    >
    > However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


    I'll try the eval version. That is, IF I manage to make that DAMNED license
    manager for their program work(it just recognizes my license ID as 0).

    --
    "K-Mart PSPICE special $1.89 - includes models."
    E-mail address is POTENTIAL spam bot FODDER. Please reply to the group!
    Chaos Master, Oct 4, 2003
    #4
  5. Paul Burridge wrote:
    > On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:34:04 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Chaos Master wrote:
    >>> Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    >>> schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >>
    >> Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    >> this?

    >
    > I find I can do this relatively easily on paper for individual stages,
    > but it does get increasingly difficult the more components/stages
    > there are.


    Note that I was referring to having a program do this automatically, not
    a brain. A program needs quite a bit of knowledge built in, e.g. to
    recognise a flip-flop, transistor cascodes etc.

    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 5, 2003
    #5
  6. "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:

    >Chaos Master wrote:
    >> Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    >> schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >
    >Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    >this?
    >
    >However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


    I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
    part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
    relatively difficult aspects presumably are:

    1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    cross-overs, etc.

    2. Drawing 'correct' symbols, properly orientated, for the less
    obvious components. (But, if that's too challenging, it would still be
    very useful if all parts apart from discretes were just suitably
    labeled rectangles.)

    --
    Terry Pinnell
    Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
    Terry Pinnell, Oct 5, 2003
    #6
  7. Terry Pinnell wrote:
    > "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Chaos Master wrote:
    >>> Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    >>> schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >>
    >> Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    >> this?
    >>
    >> However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.

    >
    > I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
    > part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
    > relatively difficult aspects presumably are:
    >


    Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

    > 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    > cross-overs, etc.
    >


    Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp. The
    combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant pattern
    recognition.


    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 5, 2003
    #7
  8. "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:

    >Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.


    But you have?

    >> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >> cross-overs, etc.
    >>

    >
    >Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp. The
    >combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant pattern
    >recognition.


    Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
    you've raised? At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
    and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
    monostable'? My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
    might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
    it.

    Presumably your next objection in support of your original
    superficially-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
    think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
    and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

    --
    Terry Pinnell
    Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
    Terry Pinnell, Oct 5, 2003
    #8
  9. Terry Pinnell wrote:
    > "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

    >
    > But you have?
    >
    >>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>> cross-overs, etc.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >> pattern recognition.

    >
    > Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
    > you've raised?


    You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
    irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
    circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
    want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
    try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How do
    you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose you
    have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital phase/frequency
    detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor charge pump etc...How do
    you think a program is going to automatically assemble all of this into
    standard cong=figurations.

    >At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
    > and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
    > monostable'?


    You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
    simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
    complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
    schematic.

    > My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
    > might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
    > it.
    >
    > Presumably your next objection in support of your original
    > superficially


    Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really difficult
    problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them out there.

    >-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
    > think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
    > and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'


    Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft cliams.

    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 5, 2003
    #9
  10. Chaos Master

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
    <> wrote:

    >Terry Pinnell wrote:
    >> "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

    >>
    >> But you have?
    >>
    >>>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>>> cross-overs, etc.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >>> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >>> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >>> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >>> pattern recognition.

    >>

    [snip]
    >Kevin Aylward

    [snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]

    I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
    devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.

    I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
    schematic.

    All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
    financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
    was being paid "lawya" rates.

    I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Oct 5, 2003
    #10
  11. Jim Thompson wrote:
    > On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Terry Pinnell wrote:
    >>> "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.
    >>>
    >>> But you have?
    >>>
    >>>>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>>>> cross-overs, etc.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >>>> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >>>> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >>>> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >>>> pattern recognition.
    >>>

    > [snip]
    >> Kevin Aylward

    > [snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]
    >
    > I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
    > devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.
    >
    > I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
    > schematic.
    >
    > All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
    > financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
    > was being paid "lawya" rates.


    Even just deciphering a spice .subckt can take significant effort.

    >
    > I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)
    >


    Indeed. It has its uses. I bet http://www.concept.de/sv_index.html is an
    arm and a leg, assuming it works. I haven't tried it.

    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 6, 2003
    #11
  12. "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:

    >Terry Pinnell wrote:
    >> "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.

    >>
    >> But you have?
    >>
    >>>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>>> cross-overs, etc.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >>> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >>> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >>> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >>> pattern recognition.

    >>
    >> Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
    >> you've raised?

    >
    >You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
    >irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
    >circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
    >want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
    >try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How do
    >you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose you
    >have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital phase/frequency
    >detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor charge pump etc...How do
    >you think a program is going to automatically assemble all of this into
    >standard cong=figurations.
    >
    >>At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
    >> and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
    >> monostable'?

    >
    >You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
    >simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
    >complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
    >schematic.
    >
    >> My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
    >> might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
    >> it.
    >>
    >> Presumably your next objection in support of your original
    >> superficially

    >
    >Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really difficult
    >problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them out there.
    >
    >>-considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
    >> think about it. How could a program tell what size the components are
    >> and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

    >
    >Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft cliams.


    OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
    different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
    working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
    closer to *my* end of the scale.

    FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
    inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
    combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
    reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
    regard as a fair size circuit.

    --
    Terry Pinnell
    Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
    Terry Pinnell, Oct 6, 2003
    #12
  13. Terry Pinnell wrote:
    > "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Terry Pinnell wrote:
    >>> "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.
    >>>
    >>> But you have?
    >>>
    >>>>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>>>> cross-overs, etc.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >>>> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >>>> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >>>> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >>>> pattern recognition.
    >>>
    >>> Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
    >>> you've raised?

    >>
    >> You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
    >> irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
    >> circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
    >> want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
    >> try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How
    >> do you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose
    >> you have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital
    >> phase/frequency detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor
    >> charge pump etc...How do you think a program is going to
    >> automatically assemble all of this into standard cong=figurations.
    >>
    >>> At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
    >>> and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
    >>> monostable'?

    >>
    >> You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
    >> simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
    >> complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
    >> schematic.
    >>
    >>> My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
    >>> might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
    >>> it.
    >>>
    >>> Presumably your next objection in support of your original
    >>> superficially

    >>
    >> Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really
    >> difficult problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them
    >> out there.
    >>
    >>> -considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
    >>> think about it. How could a program tell what size the components
    >>> are and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'

    >>
    >> Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft
    >> cliams.

    >
    > OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
    > different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
    > working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
    > closer to *my* end of the scale.
    >
    > FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
    > inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
    > combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
    > reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
    > regard as a fair size circuit.



    I am not even addressing the processing data rate. I don't think that
    that is a big issue at all. I am only really addressing the *difficulty*
    in actual *writing* the program, not its execution. The conscious mind
    is an amazing thing, and we often forget or ignore just what it is
    doing. When we look at a circuit, our brain generates an all in the oner
    picture of what's going on. A program needs a good bit of intelligence
    to "know" how a set of connections should look physically to reverse
    enginerer a schematic.

    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    Kevin Aylward, Oct 6, 2003
    #13
  14. Jim Thompson wrote:

    >On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:42:30 +0100, "Kevin Aylward"
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>Terry Pinnell wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>But you have?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    >>>>>cross-overs, etc.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    >>>>you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    >>>>"knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    >>>>The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    >>>>pattern recognition.
    >>>>
    >>>>

    >[snip]
    >
    >
    >>Kevin Aylward
    >>
    >>

    >[snip the ad that Kevin should, by convention, dash-dash-space]
    >
    >I have traced a few simple-minded IC's by "drawing" the (numbered)
    >devices into an array, the connecting them as I traced thru the metal.
    >
    >I then used "rubber-banding" movements to bring some order to the
    >schematic.
    >
    >All-in-all an enormous MANUAL task, typically taking a week...
    >financially viable because it was a patent infringement issue and I
    >was being paid "lawya" rates.
    >
    >I think automating it would be worthy of a Nobel prize ;-)
    >
    > ...Jim Thompson
    >


    Hi Jim,
    I usually describe this as the same order of complexity of creating a
    PCB from a netlist, including auto-placement and auto-routing, without
    the extra degrees of freedom of a multi-layer board. It isn't a simple
    task just to lay it out and wire everything together, much less make it
    understandable like Kevin is talking about.

    And everyone knows that, even with the state of the art in PCB layout,
    they still don't have a reliable auto-place, auto-route combination, and
    there is a lot more money available for research on PCB layout than in
    laying out a netlist on a schematic!

    Charlie
    Edmondson Engineering
    Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
    Charles Edmondson, Oct 6, 2003
    #14
  15. Chaos Master

    Active8 Guest

    In article <ARtfb.167$>,
    says...
    > Chaos Master wrote:
    > > Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    > > schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >
    > Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    > this?
    >
    > However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.


    interesting. in case you didn't see it and didn't know about it, you'll
    find links at the bottom of their pages to help you with your web design
    projects. they're html/css/browser validators.

    brs,
    mike
    >
    >
    > Kevin Aylward
    >
    > http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    > SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    > Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    > Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    >
    >
    >
    Active8, Oct 7, 2003
    #15
  16. Chaos Master

    Active8 Guest

    In article <ARtfb.167$>,
    says...
    > Chaos Master wrote:
    > > Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    > > schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    >
    > Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    > this?
    >
    > However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.
    >
    >
    > Kevin Aylward
    >
    > http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    > SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    > Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    > Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    >
    >
    >

    sorry, kevin. that reply was for terry. i waited for it to show up so i
    could cancel it.

    brs,
    mike
    Active8, Oct 7, 2003
    #16
  17. Chaos Master

    Active8 Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    >
    > >Chaos Master wrote:
    > >> Anybody here knows any program to convert a netlist from SPICE, to a
    > >> schematic (i.e. the reverse of a netlister)?

    > >
    > >Amazingly difficult task. Have a think just what is involved tpo to
    > >this?
    > >
    > >However, http://www.concept.de/ has one. Apparently.

    >
    > I've never really understood why it should be so difficult. Every
    > part, every node and pin is identified unambiguously. The two
    > relatively difficult aspects presumably are:


    in case you didn't see it and didn't know about it, you'll
    find links at the bottom of their pages to help you with your web design
    projects. they're html/css/browser validators.

    brs,
    mike

    > 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    > cross-overs, etc.
    >
    > 2. Drawing 'correct' symbols, properly orientated, for the less
    > obvious components. (But, if that's too challenging, it would still be
    > very useful if all parts apart from discretes were just suitably
    > labeled rectangles.)
    >
    >
    Active8, Oct 7, 2003
    #17
  18. Try www.quintics.com

    Paul Camilleri
    "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote in message
    news:fkegb.611$...
    > Terry Pinnell wrote:
    > > "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Terry Pinnell wrote:
    > >>> "Kevin Aylward" <> wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>> Ahmm...That's because you aint really thought about it much.
    > >>>
    > >>> But you have?
    > >>>
    > >>>>> 1. Drawing the connections in an 'inteligent' fashion, minimising
    > >>>>> cross-overs, etc.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Try actually having a go of outlining the software to do this. Say
    > >>>> you've got 1000 transistors in a text file. How do you go about
    > >>>> "knowing" a counter from a monostable, or from a differential amp.
    > >>>> The combinations are limitless. You need to generate significant
    > >>>> pattern recognition.
    > >>>
    > >>> Why would such a program need to tackle any of the irrelevant issues
    > >>> you've raised?
    > >>
    > >> You don't know what your talking about. Non of what I said is
    > >> irrelevant. What exactly do you think is irrelevant? To make sense a
    > >> circuit diagram has to be in a reasonable conventional format. Do you
    > >> want me to send you a 200 transistor netlist so that you can actually
    > >> try it in real life how hard it is to make a readable schematic? How
    > >> do you knoew what block is associated with what block. e.g. suppose
    > >> you have a PLL, consisting of a 100 transistor digital
    > >> phase/frequency detector, a 50 transistor VCO, a 50 transistor
    > >> charge pump etc...How do you think a program is going to
    > >> automatically assemble all of this into standard cong=figurations.
    > >>
    > >>> At the level I described, why does it need to recognise
    > >>> and label the configuration of say a 555 plus a few Rs and Cs as 'a
    > >>> monostable'?
    > >>
    > >> You out to lunch. Sure, an ittsy bittsy 555 timer circuit may well be
    > >> simple as a one off. You try it with a circuits that has any sort of
    > >> complexity. Its a huge task to go from a rats nest to a readable
    > >> schematic.
    > >>
    > >>> My assumption is that the user, studying the output,
    > >>> might recognise it as such - but even that's not essential to build
    > >>> it.
    > >>>
    > >>> Presumably your next objection in support of your original
    > >>> superficially
    > >>
    > >> Sorry, mate, you don't seem to have a clue. This is a really
    > >> difficult problem. If it were that easy, there would be lots of them
    > >> out there.
    > >>
    > >>> -considered objection to the OP will be: 'Ahmm - Just
    > >>> think about it. How could a program tell what size the components
    > >>> are and where to bend the wires before soldering them?'
    > >>
    > >> Wake up dude. Go and actually try it before you make such daft
    > >> cliams.

    > >
    > > OK, it's plain that we're respectively talking about circuits at
    > > different ends of the complexity spectrum. Maybe ChaosMaster is
    > > working with designs on the scale you describe. I assumed we were
    > > closer to *my* end of the scale.
    > >
    > > FWIW I *have* tried it. Manually it's a chore, but I made useful
    > > inroads. I expect the data processing necessary would increase at a
    > > combinatorial rate. But nevertheless, given today's CPU speeds, IMO a
    > > reasonably efficient program could break the back of what *I* would
    > > regard as a fair size circuit.

    >
    >
    > I am not even addressing the processing data rate. I don't think that
    > that is a big issue at all. I am only really addressing the *difficulty*
    > in actual *writing* the program, not its execution. The conscious mind
    > is an amazing thing, and we often forget or ignore just what it is
    > doing. When we look at a circuit, our brain generates an all in the oner
    > picture of what's going on. A program needs a good bit of intelligence
    > to "know" how a set of connections should look physically to reverse
    > enginerer a schematic.
    >
    > Kevin Aylward
    >
    > http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    > SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    > Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    > Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
    >
    >
    Paul Camilleri, Oct 11, 2003
    #18
  19. Chaos Master

    Chaos Master Guest

    Paul Camilleri engraved with a +2 athame:
    > Try www.quintics.com


    BTW, Electronics Workbench 5.1.2 had a function for drawing a schematic from a
    netlist. While it had various flaws(e.g. wrong connections on subcircuits), it
    worked OK for circuits with transistors and resistors. I wonder if this function
    is avaliable on Multisim?


    --
    Please reply in the group or ask for a valid e-mail/ICQ/MSN/YM/IRC address.
    Chaos Master, Oct 12, 2003
    #19
  20. Chaos Master

    Rich Webb Guest

    On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:39:18 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Camilleri"
    <> wrote:

    >Try www.quintics.com


    Any idea what the price/seat is for Quintics? $40? $400? $4,000?

    --
    Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
    Rich Webb, Oct 12, 2003
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. AB
    Replies:
    18
    Views:
    2,719
    Chaos Master
    Sep 4, 2003
  2. Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund

    Viewer for Spice Model Netlist

    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund, Dec 8, 2004, in forum: CAD
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,012
    Klaus Kragelund
    Dec 9, 2004
  3. Jonay Aloat
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    948
    Harry George
    Dec 15, 2006
  4. Mike

    Need a medium size SPICE netlist

    Mike, Sep 22, 2007, in forum: Electronic Design
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    457
    Jim Thompson
    Sep 22, 2007
  5. poor mystic

    My first SPICE netlist - what is wrong?

    poor mystic, Jun 11, 2011, in forum: General Electronics Chat
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    884
    poor mystic
    Jun 12, 2011
Loading...

Share This Page