PCB Power Trace Widths, Ground Planes, and Routing

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Apparatus, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. Apparatus

    Apparatus Guest

    Hello,

    ** I feel somewhat overwhelmed by my pcb design task, so I appologize
    in advance for the length/convoluted-ness of this post. I have
    attempted to compact and clarify as best as I can.

    I am designing a PCB of an embedded system with mostly SMT parts. The
    board includes audio (TI TLV320AIC1106) and ethernet subsections
    (Cirrus Logic CS8900A). It also includes an Oki Semiconductor ML67Q5003
    ARM microprocessor running at 20MHz (4x PLL) clocked by a 5MHz
    oscillator. It draws not more than 0.5A, is only two layers, and has
    three regulated voltages (5, 3.3, 2.5)from a 16V 500mA wall-wart
    transformer.

    Using a trace width calculator at www.33each.com, I find that the 8mil
    signal traces on my board are wide enough to route power. Should I make
    them thicker (100mil?) anyway? Thicker traces confuse the Altium Situs
    auto-router around my SMT components so I would prefer not to unless
    needed.

    How important are ground/power planes here? Since this is a two layer
    board with close to 500 connections on the pcb, even with a 6x8" board,
    space is tight around the SMT chips, so I would like to avoid planes if
    possible. If I do add a plane, should I include dead/unconnected copper
    portions of the plane? Should planes be placed before or after
    auto-routing?

    What other considerations should I take? What can make routing easier?
    I've been playing with Protel DXP for a few days and was finally able
    to generate a fully routed board that I think meets manufacturing
    specs, but it was a long iterative process getting here.

    Does Advanced Circuits (www.33each.com) have standard hole sizes? Is it
    safe to exactly meet there minimum requirements for trace/via/pad
    separation on much of the board?

    Answers or feedback to any of these questions are much appreciated.
    Happy Holidays,
    Chris
     
    Apparatus, Dec 25, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Apparatus

    John Larkin Guest

    On 25 Dec 2004 05:20:55 -0800, "Apparatus" <>
    wrote:

    >Hello,
    >
    >** I feel somewhat overwhelmed by my pcb design task, so I appologize
    >in advance for the length/convoluted-ness of this post. I have
    >attempted to compact and clarify as best as I can.
    >
    >I am designing a PCB of an embedded system with mostly SMT parts. The
    >board includes audio (TI TLV320AIC1106) and ethernet subsections
    >(Cirrus Logic CS8900A). It also includes an Oki Semiconductor ML67Q5003
    >ARM microprocessor running at 20MHz (4x PLL) clocked by a 5MHz
    >oscillator. It draws not more than 0.5A, is only two layers, and has
    >three regulated voltages (5, 3.3, 2.5)from a 16V 500mA wall-wart
    >transformer.
    >
    >Using a trace width calculator at www.33each.com, I find that the 8mil
    >signal traces on my board are wide enough to route power. Should I make
    >them thicker (100mil?) anyway? Thicker traces confuse the Altium Situs
    >auto-router around my SMT components so I would prefer not to unless
    >needed.
    >
    >How important are ground/power planes here? Since this is a two layer
    >board with close to 500 connections on the pcb, even with a 6x8" board,
    >space is tight around the SMT chips, so I would like to avoid planes if
    >possible. If I do add a plane, should I include dead/unconnected copper
    >portions of the plane? Should planes be placed before or after
    >auto-routing?
    >
    >What other considerations should I take? What can make routing easier?
    >I've been playing with Protel DXP for a few days and was finally able
    >to generate a fully routed board that I think meets manufacturing
    >specs, but it was a long iterative process getting here.
    >
    >Does Advanced Circuits (www.33each.com) have standard hole sizes? Is it
    >safe to exactly meet there minimum requirements for trace/via/pad
    >separation on much of the board?
    >
    >Answers or feedback to any of these questions are much appreciated.
    >Happy Holidays,
    >Chris


    If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    worked.

    8 mils is scairy for power, terrifying for ground. It can certainly
    handle the current (in the sense of not getting too hot) but the
    resistance and inductance can make big trouble.

    The most critical thing will be ground. Is this just a bunch of
    autorouted 8-mil traces? That will be bad news.

    If you have a lot of area to kill and insist on a 2-layer board,
    manually create a ground grid of fat (100 mil, maybe) traces using
    both sides, plop a via at each intersection, glue all that down, and
    route around it with signals.

    Better yet, go to 4 layers: solid ground l3, regional power pours on
    l2, traces on l1 and l4, with some more routing on l2 around the pours
    maybe.

    John
     
    John Larkin, Dec 25, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Apparatus

    Mac Guest

    On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 05:20:55 -0800, Apparatus wrote:

    > Hello,
    >
    > ** I feel somewhat overwhelmed by my pcb design task, so I appologize
    > in advance for the length/convoluted-ness of this post. I have
    > attempted to compact and clarify as best as I can.
    >
    > I am designing a PCB of an embedded system with mostly SMT parts. The
    > board includes audio (TI TLV320AIC1106) and ethernet subsections
    > (Cirrus Logic CS8900A). It also includes an Oki Semiconductor ML67Q5003
    > ARM microprocessor running at 20MHz (4x PLL) clocked by a 5MHz
    > oscillator. It draws not more than 0.5A, is only two layers, and has
    > three regulated voltages (5, 3.3, 2.5)from a 16V 500mA wall-wart
    > transformer.
    >
    > Using a trace width calculator at www.33each.com, I find that the 8mil
    > signal traces on my board are wide enough to route power. Should I make
    > them thicker (100mil?) anyway? Thicker traces confuse the Altium Situs
    > auto-router around my SMT components so I would prefer not to unless
    > needed.
    >
    > How important are ground/power planes here? Since this is a two layer
    > board with close to 500 connections on the pcb, even with a 6x8" board,
    > space is tight around the SMT chips, so I would like to avoid planes if
    > possible. If I do add a plane, should I include dead/unconnected copper
    > portions of the plane? Should planes be placed before or after
    > auto-routing?
    >
    > What other considerations should I take? What can make routing easier?
    > I've been playing with Protel DXP for a few days and was finally able
    > to generate a fully routed board that I think meets manufacturing
    > specs, but it was a long iterative process getting here.
    >
    > Does Advanced Circuits (www.33each.com) have standard hole sizes? Is it
    > safe to exactly meet there minimum requirements for trace/via/pad
    > separation on much of the board?
    >
    > Answers or feedback to any of these questions are much appreciated.
    > Happy Holidays,
    > Chris


    I wouldn't attempt to do what you are doing without at least 4 layers.
    This will make routing a lot easier, too, because power (or at least
    ground) is basically done.

    As for power traces of 0.008", AFAIK, that is totally unworkable, although
    I have never tried it. The problem is that 8 mil traces have a lot of
    inductance, and digital chips draw current in spikes. So it is hard to
    ensure that there is enough current available when it is needed. Also, you
    can no longer be sure that at any given moment, all the chip grounds are
    at the same potential. This could cause huge problems.

    I think I would go with 4 layers and put in a GND plane, and one positive
    power plane. Whichever of your 3 voltages is most common I would make into
    a power plane. Personally, I would not route any traces on this power
    plane. I might put in some islands of different voltages, but according to
    my training, there are precautions that must be followed when you do this.
    For example, when you route a high-speed signal on an outer layer, it is
    referenced to the underlying plane. If the signal crosses a split in
    the plane, you have to decouple directly across the plane split with a
    high-frequency capacitor, and the capacitor has to be near the signal.
    This is a change of reference.

    If most of your signals are not high speed, then you may get away with not
    worrying about this. But at least you should do it for the clocks and
    any highly active buses.

    Sounds like you may be in slightly over your head, but hey, that's how we
    learn. ;-)

    I hope you allow enough time in the schedule to do the board layout twice.
    Especially if it requires FCC testing.

    HTH

    --Mac
     
    Mac, Dec 25, 2004
    #3
  4. Apparatus

    Apparatus Guest

    Thank you for your informative replies.

    I'm using a two layer board since it is $33 at www.33each.com with the
    student discount. I suppose I could go to a four layer board. How much
    more do these usually run? (The price isn't listed on 33each.com. I
    need to call for a quote.)

    What speed qualifies as high speed? Which buses qualify as highly
    active buses? The ARM is able to be clocked up to 66MHz, but I'm
    running it at 20MHz (4x 5MHz osc. via PLL) to avoid much these high
    speed effects. The ethernet section is running at 20MHz as well, but
    off a separate crystal to allow me to clock the ARM faster,
    independently of the CS8900. The TI Codec is running at 2.048MHz of
    another osc. The ARM has an 18-bits of the address bus running to SRAM,
    1-bit to the LCD controller, and 3-bits to the CS8900. The 16-bit data
    bus runs 16-bits to SRAM and the CS8900, and 8-bits to the TI Codec and
    LCD Controller. During development, SRAM will hold program code and be
    frequently accessed. The TI Codec and CS8900 will be the other two
    frequently accessed chips (VoIP application).

    Should I make separate analog ground planes for the TI Codec and
    CS8900? Why do the chips have separate analog and digital grounds (AVss
    and DVss)? Can I connect these to one ground plane? If to separate
    ground planes, how should the planes connect to ground.

    The 5V is to power an onboard LCD the CPLD LCD controller. The 2.5V is
    the supply for the ARM core. The rest of the system is 3.3V. So I
    should make the power plane 3.3V and run 100 mil traces in the same
    layer (maybe around the edges?) for the other two supplies? How can I
    tell the auto-router to make the trace smaller as it gets closer to the
    SMT chips? Currently the auto-router tries to run 100mil traces
    straight to the SMT pins and looks like it shorts them, though that
    could simply be a visual effect. I'm using Protel DXP.

    Since this is a student project, I don't need to meet FCC testing. If
    you're interested in the class, here is the website:
    http://wolverine.caltech.edu/eecs53/

    Cheers,
    Chris
     
    Apparatus, Dec 26, 2004
    #4
  5. Apparatus

    John Larkin Guest

    On 25 Dec 2004 19:23:09 -0800, "Apparatus" <>
    wrote:

    >Thank you for your informative replies.
    >
    >I'm using a two layer board since it is $33 at www.33each.com with the
    >student discount. I suppose I could go to a four layer board. How much
    >more do these usually run? (The price isn't listed on 33each.com. I
    >need to call for a quote.)
    >


    Spend a few more bucks on a 4-layer. You want this to work the first
    time, don't you?

    >What speed qualifies as high speed? Which buses qualify as highly
    >active buses? The ARM is able to be clocked up to 66MHz, but I'm
    >running it at 20MHz (4x 5MHz osc. via PLL) to avoid much these high
    >speed effects. The ethernet section is running at 20MHz as well, but
    >off a separate crystal to allow me to clock the ARM faster,
    >independently of the CS8900. The TI Codec is running at 2.048MHz of
    >another osc. The ARM has an 18-bits of the address bus running to SRAM,
    >1-bit to the LCD controller, and 3-bits to the CS8900. The 16-bit data
    >bus runs 16-bits to SRAM and the CS8900, and 8-bits to the TI Codec and
    >LCD Controller. During development, SRAM will hold program code and be
    >frequently accessed. The TI Codec and CS8900 will be the other two
    >frequently accessed chips (VoIP application).
    >


    The frequency isn't as important as the edge rates and power supply
    dI/dT. A "fast" part run at a lower-than-max clock rate still needs to
    be treated as a fast part.


    >Should I make separate analog ground planes for the TI Codec and
    >CS8900?


    No.

    > Why do the chips have separate analog and digital grounds (AVss
    >and DVss)?


    So that, internal to the chip, digital ground bounce doesn't mess up
    the analog stuff too badly.


    >Can I connect these to one ground plane?


    Yes.

    >
    >The 5V is to power an onboard LCD the CPLD LCD controller. The 2.5V is
    >the supply for the ARM core. The rest of the system is 3.3V. So I
    >should make the power plane 3.3V and run 100 mil traces in the same
    >layer (maybe around the edges?) for the other two supplies?


    I usually make pour pours around each chip at the appropriate
    voltages. If things work out, you can slice up the power plane into
    cleverly shaped islands that connect everything with fat regions
    everywhere. If not, use power islands around chips and run fat power
    feeders (50-100 mils) to the islands from your power supplies.



    > How can I
    >tell the auto-router to make the trace smaller as it gets closer to the
    >SMT chips?


    99.99% of autorouters suck 99.99% of the time. Just do it by hand.
    Routing is fun.

    John
     
    John Larkin, Dec 26, 2004
    #5
  6. Apparatus

    Mac Guest

    On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 19:23:09 -0800, Apparatus wrote:

    > Thank you for your informative replies.
    >
    > I'm using a two layer board since it is $33 at www.33each.com with the
    > student discount. I suppose I could go to a four layer board. How much
    > more do these usually run? (The price isn't listed on 33each.com. I
    > need to call for a quote.)


    Check pcbexpress.com, too.

    If you don't mind using their free software, you can also use expresspcb.
    They are reliable, but a lot of people don't like using them because their
    software uses special output formats that aren't compatible with other
    vendors.

    >
    > What speed qualifies as high speed? Which buses qualify as highly
    > active buses? The ARM is able to be clocked up to 66MHz, but I'm
    > running it at 20MHz (4x 5MHz osc. via PLL) to avoid much these high
    > speed effects. The ethernet section is running at 20MHz as well, but
    > off a separate crystal to allow me to clock the ARM faster,
    > independently of the CS8900. The TI Codec is running at 2.048MHz of
    > another osc. The ARM has an 18-bits of the address bus running to SRAM,
    > 1-bit to the LCD controller, and 3-bits to the CS8900. The 16-bit data
    > bus runs 16-bits to SRAM and the CS8900, and 8-bits to the TI Codec and
    > LCD Controller. During development, SRAM will hold program code and be
    > frequently accessed. The TI Codec and CS8900 will be the other two
    > frequently accessed chips (VoIP application).


    All continuous clocks are high speed, no matter how fast they are. Any bus
    that runs continuously should be treated as high speed. This includes all
    RAM, etc. And, as John Larkin said, the edge rate of the signal can make
    it fast, even if the clock rate isn't. I would say all of your buses are
    probably high speed. An example of a non-high-speed bus would be the SMBus
    serial bus on Intel architecture systems.

    Here is a little tip for you. The clocks on digital boards cause 90
    percent of signal integrity and RF interference problems. So leave good
    clearance around the clock traces (this helps keep them from adding noise
    to other signals), and try to avoid changing reference plane when you
    route them. That is, if they are next to a ground layer, keep them next to
    ground layers. Don't switch to a VCC layer. And if they are next to a VCC
    layer, keep them there. This helps keep them from emitting RF. At my
    previous job, our standard procedure was to put series resistors near all
    clock sources, and shunt capacitors near all clock loads. This allows you
    to control the edge rate to keep RF emissions down, and you can slightly
    tweak the signal delay if you find you have a skew problem. Often the
    resistor would be replaced with a "jumper", and the capacitor would not be
    populated. But this is preferable to redesigning the board to incorporate
    them if they are needed. Also, avoid routing other signals near the clock
    generator, buffer, and multiplier chips. They are infamous for coupling
    noise to other signals.

    >
    > Should I make separate analog ground planes for the TI Codec and CS8900?
    > Why do the chips have separate analog and digital grounds (AVss and
    > DVss)? Can I connect these to one ground plane? If to separate ground
    > planes, how should the planes connect to ground.


    Splitting ground planes is problematic because, as I said, you shouldn't
    route signals across the split on layers adjacent to the plane, and
    usually, you have to. So it is better to stick to one ground plane, and
    decouple it appropriately.

    I usually filter the AVDD with series inductor and several shunt
    capacitors (to ground) of different values and package sizes. I have never
    tried not doing this, but I have had good luck so far with this approach.

    >
    > The 5V is to power an onboard LCD the CPLD LCD controller. The 2.5V is
    > the supply for the ARM core. The rest of the system is 3.3V. So I should
    > make the power plane 3.3V and run 100 mil traces in the same layer
    > (maybe around the edges?) for the other two supplies? How can I tell the
    > auto-router to make the trace smaller as it gets closer to the SMT
    > chips? Currently the auto-router tries to run 100mil traces straight to
    > the SMT pins and looks like it shorts them, though that could simply be
    > a visual effect. I'm using Protel DXP.



    I've never used an auto-router. Usually other people have manually
    routed my boards for me, according to my instructions. Maybe you could
    route some of the critical nets manually first, and then submit the job to
    the auto-router?

    The idea I have in mind for you is to not route traces on the power plane
    at all. Instead, I am imagining that you will have a VCC plane that
    will mostly be 3.3V, but with an an island of 5 V near the LCD and
    CPLD, and island of 2.5 near the ARM (unless it uses both 2.5 and 3.3.
    Does it?). Connect the 5V and 2.5V supplies to the islands using wide
    traces. I imagine 100 mils would be fine. Be sure to use multiple vias.

    If the arm has 3.3V for the I/O supplies, you may find that the 3.3 V and
    the 2.5 V are spacially segregated. In BGA's, the innermost area is often
    the core voltage with the IO voltages in the outer balls. I don't know if
    your ARM chip is like this or not. If it is, try to make an island that
    captures all the 2.5V pins or balls, including decoupling caps, but make
    it as small as you can, and try to keep it away from 3.3V pins or balls if
    you can.


    Usually, I don't decide how to cut up the power plane until after I place
    most of the parts on the board. Then I set the different voltages to
    different colors and try to visualize where the different islands should
    go. Sometimes it is hard. Sometimes it is easy. Sometimes you just have to
    do the best you can and hope it works. I try to keep the islands
    rectangular, or at most slightly pan-handled. It is OK to have multiple
    islands of the same voltage, as long as they are connected by fat traces.
    Your 100 mils would be plenty, I think. The individual islands should be
    decoupled to ground just as if they were continuous planes.

    >
    > Since this is a student project, I don't need to meet FCC testing.


    Good. That makes the job a lot easier.

    > If
    > you're interested in the class, here is the website:
    > http://wolverine.caltech.edu/eecs53/
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Chris


    Good luck! Stay on top of it and try to get things done early. This is a
    fairly big task if you've never done it before!

    --Mac
     
    Mac, Dec 26, 2004
    #6
  7. Apparatus

    Nico Coesel Guest

    "Apparatus" <> wrote:

    >Hello,
    >
    >** I feel somewhat overwhelmed by my pcb design task, so I appologize
    >in advance for the length/convoluted-ness of this post. I have
    >attempted to compact and clarify as best as I can.
    >
    >I am designing a PCB of an embedded system with mostly SMT parts. The
    >board includes audio (TI TLV320AIC1106) and ethernet subsections
    >(Cirrus Logic CS8900A). It also includes an Oki Semiconductor ML67Q5003
    >ARM microprocessor running at 20MHz (4x PLL) clocked by a 5MHz
    >oscillator. It draws not more than 0.5A, is only two layers, and has
    >three regulated voltages (5, 3.3, 2.5)from a 16V 500mA wall-wart
    >transformer.


    8 mils is too narrow for power. Use at least 16 mils or better 20
    mils. If you route the power like a grid and place 100nf bypass
    capacitors on the intersection points, you will be fine.

    --
    Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
    Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
     
    Nico Coesel, Dec 26, 2004
    #7
  8. Apparatus

    Leon Heller Guest

    "Apparatus" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Thank you for your informative replies.
    >
    > I'm using a two layer board since it is $33 at www.33each.com with the
    > student discount. I suppose I could go to a four layer board. How much
    > more do these usually run? (The price isn't listed on 33each.com. I
    > need to call for a quote.)
    >
    > What speed qualifies as high speed? Which buses qualify as highly
    > active buses? The ARM is able to be clocked up to 66MHz, but I'm
    > running it at 20MHz (4x 5MHz osc. via PLL) to avoid much these high
    > speed effects. The ethernet section is running at 20MHz as well, but
    > off a separate crystal to allow me to clock the ARM faster,
    > independently of the CS8900. The TI Codec is running at 2.048MHz of
    > another osc. The ARM has an 18-bits of the address bus running to SRAM,
    > 1-bit to the LCD controller, and 3-bits to the CS8900. The 16-bit data
    > bus runs 16-bits to SRAM and the CS8900, and 8-bits to the TI Codec and
    > LCD Controller. During development, SRAM will hold program code and be
    > frequently accessed. The TI Codec and CS8900 will be the other two
    > frequently accessed chips (VoIP application).


    It's not the clock speed, so much as the speed of the pulse edges. Even if
    you ran it at 1 MHz you could still have problems with poor layout. Also,
    the current spikes when outputs switch can be very high, as much as 1 A,
    momentarily.

    >
    > Should I make separate analog ground planes for the TI Codec and
    > CS8900? Why do the chips have separate analog and digital grounds (AVss
    > and DVss)? Can I connect these to one ground plane? If to separate
    > ground planes, how should the planes connect to ground.
    >
    > The 5V is to power an onboard LCD the CPLD LCD controller. The 2.5V is
    > the supply for the ARM core. The rest of the system is 3.3V. So I
    > should make the power plane 3.3V and run 100 mil traces in the same
    > layer (maybe around the edges?) for the other two supplies? How can I
    > tell the auto-router to make the trace smaller as it gets closer to the
    > SMT chips? Currently the auto-router tries to run 100mil traces
    > straight to the SMT pins and looks like it shorts them, though that
    > could simply be a visual effect. I'm using Protel DXP.


    You ought to route the critical tracks like supplies and ground manually.
    You can use 'fanouts' to get small tracks connecting to SMD leads. The
    Protel autorouter has a very poor reputation, you'd be better off routing
    all your tracks manually.

    Leon
     
    Leon Heller, Dec 26, 2004
    #8
  9. "Apparatus" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello,
    >
    > ** I feel somewhat overwhelmed by my pcb design task, so I appologize
    > in advance for the length/convoluted-ness of this post. I have
    > attempted to compact and clarify as best as I can.
    >
    > I am designing a PCB of an embedded system with mostly SMT parts. The
    > board includes audio (TI TLV320AIC1106) and ethernet subsections
    > (Cirrus Logic CS8900A). It also includes an Oki Semiconductor ML67Q5003
    > ARM microprocessor running at 20MHz (4x PLL) clocked by a 5MHz
    > oscillator. It draws not more than 0.5A, is only two layers, and has
    > three regulated voltages (5, 3.3, 2.5)from a 16V 500mA wall-wart
    > transformer.
    >
    > Using a trace width calculator at www.33each.com, I find that the 8mil
    > signal traces on my board are wide enough to route power. Should I make
    > them thicker (100mil?) anyway? Thicker traces confuse the Altium Situs
    > auto-router around my SMT components so I would prefer not to unless
    > needed.
    >
    > How important are ground/power planes here? Since this is a two layer
    > board with close to 500 connections on the pcb, even with a 6x8" board,
    > space is tight around the SMT chips, so I would like to avoid planes if
    > possible. If I do add a plane, should I include dead/unconnected copper
    > portions of the plane? Should planes be placed before or after
    > auto-routing?
    >
    > What other considerations should I take? What can make routing easier?
    > I've been playing with Protel DXP for a few days and was finally able
    > to generate a fully routed board that I think meets manufacturing
    > specs, but it was a long iterative process getting here.
    >
    > Does Advanced Circuits (www.33each.com) have standard hole sizes? Is it
    > safe to exactly meet there minimum requirements for trace/via/pad
    > separation on much of the board?


    There have been lots of suggestions about going to more than 2 layers. I
    would normally concur, but since this is a student project, you probably
    will not have the reason or resources for that.

    I disagree somewhat about splitting the ground plane. Make a logical block
    diagram and the appropriate ground plane splits may become obvious. For
    instance, the input power area (from you wall-wart) can be separated from
    the regulated voltages. Often the dc-dc ics will be pinned out
    intentionally to support this, and/or the data shets will show a recommended
    layout. Also, since you have an audio section, fence off the ground for the
    circuits in that area from the digital and high-speed i/o circuits. Connect
    the audio ground area to the other ground at a single "gate" large enough to
    support the anticipated currents. Keep the audio components over the audio
    ground.
     
    Richard Henry, Dec 26, 2004
    #9
  10. Apparatus

    Nico Coesel Guest

    John Larkin <> wrote:

    >
    >If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >worked.


    You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    with PC stuff).

    --
    Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
    Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
     
    Nico Coesel, Dec 26, 2004
    #10
  11. Apparatus

    John Larkin Guest

    On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:14:16 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
    wrote:

    >John Larkin <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >>worked.

    >
    >You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    >the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    >actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    >commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    >with PC stuff).



    Yeah, but it takes some luck, and maybe a few iterations, especially
    in a mixed-signal design with fast parts, like this is. And if it's
    autorouted, a lot of the traces will make the grand tour of the board.
    It might work, or it might be a nightmare.

    Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?

    John
     
    John Larkin, Dec 26, 2004
    #11
  12. "John Larkin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:14:16 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
    > wrote:
    >
    > >John Larkin <> wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    > >>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    > >>worked.

    > >
    > >You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    > >the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    > >actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    > >commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    > >with PC stuff).

    >
    >
    > Yeah, but it takes some luck, and maybe a few iterations, especially
    > in a mixed-signal design with fast parts, like this is. And if it's
    > autorouted, a lot of the traces will make the grand tour of the board.
    > It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >
    > Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?


    Did you mean modern, or modem?

    I worked on a board once that came out to 11 layers.
     
    Richard Henry, Dec 26, 2004
    #12
  13. I read in sci.electronics.design that Nico Coesel <>
    wrote (in <>) about 'PCB Power Trace
    Widths, Ground Planes, and Routing', on Sun, 26 Dec 2004:
    >John Larkin <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >>worked.

    >
    >You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if the
    >bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    >actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    >commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box with
    >PC stuff).


    Yes, such a board can be made by a person with a great deal of
    experience, but the OP doesn't have that.
    --
    Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
    The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
    The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
    http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
     
    John Woodgate, Dec 26, 2004
    #13
  14. Apparatus

    Hal Murray Guest

    >Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?

    I think the mother boards are typically 4 layers.

    They work pretty hard to get there - lots of competition in that business.

    The board designers do get some help from the chip designers - sensible pinouts.
    (Basically, the chip designers have to demonstrate that you can build a sensible
    board with only 4 layers.)

    --
    The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
    other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
    commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
    These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
     
    Hal Murray, Dec 27, 2004
    #14
  15. Apparatus

    Nico Coesel Guest

    John Larkin <> wrote:

    >On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:14:16 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
    >wrote:
    >
    >>John Larkin <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >>>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >>>worked.

    >>
    >>You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    >>the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    >>actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    >>commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    >>with PC stuff).

    >
    >
    >Yeah, but it takes some luck, and maybe a few iterations, especially
    >in a mixed-signal design with fast parts, like this is. And if it's
    >autorouted, a lot of the traces will make the grand tour of the board.
    >It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >
    >Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?


    It's just 4 layers. Where would you need more layers for? Most of the
    chips are surface mounted on one side. There is no sense in using more
    layers because you have no space to put the via's.
    If you look carefully at a modern motherboard, you'll find most of the
    signals are routed on the component side. This means the 2 inner
    layers and most of the solder side can be used for power.

    --
    Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
    Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
     
    Nico Coesel, Dec 27, 2004
    #15
  16. Apparatus

    Mac Guest

    On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:10:06 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
    > It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >
    > Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?
    >
    > John


    As far as I know, desktop type hardware is done on four layer boards.

    I have personally worked on CompactPCI single-board computers that were 12
    layers. IIRC, 14 layers is the maximum possible without violating a
    specification, and even so, it is kind of touch and go.

    That is, the boards have to be physically within a certain thickness so
    that they fit in the card guides, and trace impedances are set down in the
    CompactPCI specification, too. If you go more than 14 layers on FR4, it is
    realistically impossible to simultaneously satisfy both specifications
    with achievable trace geometry.

    These boards had Intel mobile processors, on-board ECC SDRAM (up to 18
    SDRAM chips), C&T video, multiple ethernet MAC/PHY's and other junk I am
    probably forgetting right now. All of this on a 6U compactPCI card.

    Oh yeah, one board had a dual fiber-channel controller. I think we went to
    14 layers on that one.

    --Mac
     
    Mac, Dec 27, 2004
    #16
  17. Apparatus

    keith Guest

    On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:02:30 -0600, Hal Murray wrote:

    >>Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?

    >
    > I think the mother boards are typically 4 layers.


    Most these days are six. The low-end stuff is still four though.

    > They work pretty hard to get there - lots of competition in that business.


    Sure. The only ones making money are the one's making the processor and
    the OS. Smart people don't fun M$. ;-)

    > The board designers do get some help from the chip designers - sensible
    > pinouts. (Basically, the chip designers have to demonstrate that you can
    > build a sensible board with only 4 layers.)


    Again, many are six-layer to get the wiring reasonable. Server boards are
    almost always six layer.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Dec 27, 2004
    #17
  18. Apparatus

    keith Guest

    On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:37:17 +0000, Nico Coesel wrote:

    > John Larkin <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:14:16 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>John Larkin <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >>>>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >>>>worked.
    >>>
    >>>You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    >>>the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    >>>actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    >>>commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    >>>with PC stuff).

    >>
    >>
    >>Yeah, but it takes some luck, and maybe a few iterations, especially
    >>in a mixed-signal design with fast parts, like this is. And if it's
    >>autorouted, a lot of the traces will make the grand tour of the board.
    >>It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >>
    >>Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?

    >
    > It's just 4 layers. Where would you need more layers for? Most of the
    > chips are surface mounted on one side. There is no sense in using more
    > layers because you have no space to put the via's.


    Nonsense. You've never seen a BGA or PGA? X86 processors are almost
    always PGAs and the bridges are almost always BGAs these days. There are
    many reasons to go to more layers. Again, six is more or less standard
    for higher end boards. Four for the cheap crap.

    > If you look carefully at a modern motherboard, you'll find most of the
    > signals are routed on the component side. This means the 2 inner layers
    > and most of the solder side can be used for power.


    Look again. Certainly the inner layers (and anything else they can
    find) are used for power, but signals are done on innner layers too.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Dec 27, 2004
    #18
  19. Apparatus

    keith Guest

    On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 04:02:11 +0000, Mac wrote:

    > On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:10:06 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
    >> It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >>
    >> Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?
    >>
    >> John

    >
    > As far as I know, desktop type hardware is done on four layer boards.
    >
    > I have personally worked on CompactPCI single-board computers that were 12
    > layers. IIRC, 14 layers is the maximum possible without violating a
    > specification, and even so, it is kind of touch and go.
    >
    > That is, the boards have to be physically within a certain thickness so
    > that they fit in the card guides, and trace impedances are set down in the
    > CompactPCI specification, too. If you go more than 14 layers on FR4, it is
    > realistically impossible to simultaneously satisfy both specifications
    > with achievable trace geometry.


    That makes sense for cards (I've personally done 10 layers and met the
    ..062" PCI spec), but why the restriction for motherboards?

    > These boards had Intel mobile processors, on-board ECC SDRAM (up to 18
    > SDRAM chips), C&T video, multiple ethernet MAC/PHY's and other junk I am
    > probably forgetting right now. All of this on a 6U compactPCI card.
    >
    > Oh yeah, one board had a dual fiber-channel controller. I think we went
    > to 14 layers on that one.


    I believe it. Multiple layers aren't all *that* expensive. Certainly a
    *dime* is expensive for cheapcrap Taiwaneese desktop motherboards, but
    there are many other markets.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Dec 27, 2004
    #19
  20. Apparatus

    keith Guest

    On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 12:10:06 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

    > On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:14:16 GMT, (Nico Coesel)
    > wrote:
    >
    >>John Larkin <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>If it's only 2 layers and has no ground plane, and power and ground
    >>>are just skinny routed traces, I'd be astonished if it actually
    >>>worked.

    >>
    >>You'll be amazed what can be accomplished by using only 2 layers if
    >>the bypass capacitors are well placed and the power is well routed. I
    >>actually have a 2 layer 386SX 33MHz motherboard which was available
    >>commercially (not my design, just something that ended up in a box
    >>with PC stuff).

    >
    >
    > Yeah, but it takes some luck, and maybe a few iterations, especially
    > in a mixed-signal design with fast parts, like this is. And if it's
    > autorouted, a lot of the traces will make the grand tour of the board.
    > It might work, or it might be a nightmare.
    >
    > Moderm PCs have a lot of layers... anybody know how many?


    The processor I've most recently worked on has 10 layers of metal (with
    more than a few power and grounds). ;-) I hightly doubt that well give up
    any of 'em soon.

    --
    Keith
     
    keith, Dec 27, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. NickP

    High Current Trace Widths - PCB Design

    NickP, Jan 29, 2004, in forum: Electronic Design
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    1,158
    N. Thornton
    Jan 30, 2004
  2. Hank

    dacs, microcontrollers and ground planes

    Hank, Jun 12, 2004, in forum: Electronic Design
    Replies:
    20
    Views:
    798
    Ken Smith
    Jun 14, 2004
  3. NickP
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    4,543
    N. Thornton
    Jan 30, 2004
  4. Replies:
    84
    Views:
    1,779
    Terry Given
    Feb 22, 2008
  5. Martin Griffith

    PCB power planes?

    Martin Griffith, Jul 5, 2008, in forum: Electronic Design
    Replies:
    34
    Views:
    757
    JosephKK
    Jul 10, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page