Need to solve missing LED in Christmas light.

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Sam Nickaby, Feb 27, 2006.

  1. Sam Nickaby

    Sam Nickaby Guest

    James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.

    Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    LED from burning out?

    Thanks
    Sam Nickaby, Feb 27, 2006
    #1
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  2. Sam Nickaby

    Tim Williams Guest

    Does the textbook mention the current drawn by the string?

    You may be interested in Ohm's law, to finish this one.

    Tim

    --
    Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
    Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

    "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote in message
    news:8esMf.40783$...
    > James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    > 4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >
    > Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    > has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    > that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    > LED from burning out?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >
    Tim Williams, Feb 27, 2006
    #2
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  3. Sam Nickaby

    John Larkin Guest

    On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:04:04 GMT, "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote:

    >James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    >4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >
    >Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    >has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    >that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    >LED from burning out?
    >
    >Thanks
    >


    45 megohms.

    John
    John Larkin, Feb 27, 2006
    #3
  4. Sam Nickaby

    ehsjr Guest

    John Larkin wrote:
    > On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:04:04 GMT, "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    >>4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >>
    >>Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    >>has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    >>that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    >>LED from burning out?
    >>
    >>Thanks
    >>

    >
    >
    > 45 megohms.
    >
    > John
    >


    Ahhhhh - but what value do you use if his *sister*
    steals the bulbs?

    Ed
    ehsjr, Feb 27, 2006
    #4
  5. Sam Nickaby

    John Fields Guest

    On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:04:04 GMT, "Sam Nickaby" <>
    wrote:

    >James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    >4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >
    >Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    >has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    >that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    >LED from burning out?


    ---

    --
    John Fields
    Professional Circuit Designer
    John Fields, Feb 27, 2006
    #5
  6. Sam Nickaby

    PeteG Guest

    "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote in message
    news:8esMf.40783$...
    > James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    > 4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >
    > Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    > has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    > that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    > LED from burning out?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >


    60 leds x 4 volts is 240volts so they never worked.

    If they're connected as two sets of 30 leds wired back to back so they
    conduct on alternate halves of the AC cycle which you don't say but it's
    kind of implied since 30 leds x 4 volts = 120 then you need to know did his
    brother take 5 leds from each leg? If he didn't you need two resistors.

    And whatever resistor(s) you put in it still won't work because there are 10
    open connections were the leds have been removed :)

    Pete
    PeteG, Feb 27, 2006
    #6
  7. Sam Nickaby

    redbelly Guest

    PeteG wrote:

    >
    > 60 leds x 4 volts is 240volts so they never worked.
    >
    > If they're connected as two sets of 30 leds wired back to back so they
    > conduct on alternate halves of the AC cycle which you don't say but it's
    > kind of implied since 30 leds x 4 volts = 120 then you need to know did his
    > brother take 5 leds from each leg? If he didn't you need two resistors.
    >
    > And whatever resistor(s) you put in it still won't work because there are 10
    > open connections were the leds have been removed :)
    >
    > Pete


    That wouldn't work either. A 120 Vrms signal has an amplitude of 170
    V, which will fry the LED's.

    Mark
    redbelly, Feb 27, 2006
    #7
  8. Sam Nickaby

    PeteG Guest

    "redbelly" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > PeteG wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > 60 leds x 4 volts is 240volts so they never worked.
    > >
    > > If they're connected as two sets of 30 leds wired back to back so they
    > > conduct on alternate halves of the AC cycle which you don't say but it's
    > > kind of implied since 30 leds x 4 volts = 120 then you need to know did

    his
    > > brother take 5 leds from each leg? If he didn't you need two resistors.
    > >
    > > And whatever resistor(s) you put in it still won't work because there

    are 10
    > > open connections were the leds have been removed :)
    > >
    > > Pete

    >
    > That wouldn't work either. A 120 Vrms signal has an amplitude of 170
    > V, which will fry the LED's.
    >
    > Mark
    >

    Yeah I'd thought of that too although it doesn't say whether it's 120V peak,
    or 120V rms so we assume rms because that's what we'd expect in the real
    world. The whole scenario as he has presented it here is flawed.

    I don't like contrived 'real world' type questions for this reason.

    They'll probably cover AC peak and rms voltages in next weeks lesson.

    Pete
    PeteG, Feb 27, 2006
    #8
  9. Sam Nickaby wrote:
    > James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    > 4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    >
    > Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    > has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    > that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    > LED from burning out?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >

    None, just go to WalMart and get another one for $1.99. I know this was
    a trick question.
    James Douglas, Feb 28, 2006
    #9
  10. Sam Nickaby

    redbelly Guest

    PeteG wrote:

    > Yeah I'd thought of that too although it doesn't say whether it's 120V peak,
    > or 120V rms so we assume rms because that's what we'd expect in the real
    > world. The whole scenario as he has presented it here is flawed.
    >
    > I don't like contrived 'real world' type questions for this reason.
    >
    > They'll probably cover AC peak and rms voltages in next weeks lesson.
    >
    > Pete


    The thing is, even a question for a basic electronics class homework
    wouldn't be flawed like this. If it was a troll post, I guess I've
    been hooked. Oh well.

    Mark
    redbelly, Feb 28, 2006
    #10
  11. Sam Nickaby

    Sam Nickaby Guest

    "redbelly" <> wrote
    > PeteG wrote:
    >
    > > Yeah I'd thought of that too although it doesn't say whether it's 120V peak,
    > > or 120V rms so we assume rms because that's what we'd expect in the real
    > > world. The whole scenario as he has presented it here is flawed.
    > >
    > > I don't like contrived 'real world' type questions for this reason.
    > >
    > > They'll probably cover AC peak and rms voltages in next weeks lesson.
    > >
    > > Pete

    >
    > The thing is, even a question for a basic electronics class homework
    > wouldn't be flawed like this. If it was a troll post, I guess I've
    > been hooked. Oh well.
    >
    > Mark


    There are two series strings of LEDs driven at 20 mA should draw 40 mA
    from the source, and 120V * 40 mA = 4.8W. Only half the LEDs are on at
    once, and they are not lit for a full 50% duty cycle. 60 LEDs, 115VAC, 60Hz
    and 40 mA appears to add up to two series strings of LEDs.

    The two strings of 30 series LEDs connected in opposite polarity across
    the AC source, so that only 30 of the 60 LEDs are lit at any given time.
    Of the 30 LEDs, 10 are missing. What resistor value should be used to
    keep the 30 LEDs from burning out?
    Sam Nickaby, Mar 2, 2006
    #11
  12. Sam Nickaby

    Sam Nickaby Guest

    "James Douglas" <> wrote
    > Sam Nickaby wrote:
    > > James has a 60 LED Christmas Lights made by Phillips. Each LED takes
    > > 4-Volts . They run on 120-Volt AC.
    > >
    > > Question: If James brother steals 10 LEDs from the 60 LEDs, James now
    > > has 50 LEDs. What is the value of the resistor in Watts and resistance
    > > that James should put in place of the missing LEDs in order to prevent the
    > > LED from burning out?
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > >

    > None, just go to WalMart and get another one for $1.99. I know this was
    > a trick question.


    I thought they sell them for $9-12. I got mine from a garage sale for
    $2. I'd just figured out how Phillips hooked up the lights. The approach
    takes two strings of 30 series LEDs connected in opposite polarity
    across the AC source, so that only 30 of the 60 LEDs are lit at any
    given time. There's a certain elegance to the minimalism of that, but
    it produces a perceptible flicker in the lights that look the Twinkle
    Twinkle Little Star in the Wizard of Oz.
    Sam Nickaby, Mar 2, 2006
    #12
  13. Sam Nickaby

    Sam Nickaby Guest

    "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote

    > The two strings of 30 series LEDs connected in opposite polarity across
    > the AC source, so that only 30 of the 60 LEDs are lit at any given time.
    > Of the 30 LEDs, 10 are missing. What resistor value should be used to
    > keep the 30 LEDs from burning out?


    Sorry, typo. It should read:

    What resistor value should be used to keep the *20* LEDs from burning out?
    Sam Nickaby, Mar 2, 2006
    #13
  14. Sam Nickaby

    ehsjr Guest

    Sam Nickaby wrote:
    > "Sam Nickaby" <> wrote
    >
    >
    >>The two strings of 30 series LEDs connected in opposite polarity across
    >>the AC source, so that only 30 of the 60 LEDs are lit at any given time.
    >>Of the 30 LEDs, 10 are missing. What resistor value should be used to
    >>keep the 30 LEDs from burning out?

    >
    >
    > Sorry, typo. It should read:
    >
    > What resistor value should be used to keep the *20* LEDs from burning out?
    >
    >

    You do not understand the question or the circuit.
    The proper question is "What resistor value should be used
    to keep the *30* LEDs from burning out?" You had it right
    the previous time.

    The 20 LEDs *cannot* burn out - no voltage is applied to
    them, due to the missing LEDs.

    If you tell us what you are really trying to learn,
    perhaps we can help.

    Ed
    ehsjr, Mar 3, 2006
    #14
  15. Sam Nickaby

    Sam Nickaby Guest

    "ehsjr" <> wrote

    > You do not understand the question or the circuit.
    > The proper question is "What resistor value should be used
    > to keep the *30* LEDs from burning out?" You had it right
    > the previous time.
    >
    > The 20 LEDs *cannot* burn out - no voltage is applied to
    > them, due to the missing LEDs.
    >
    > If you tell us what you are really trying to learn,
    > perhaps we can help.
    >
    > Ed


    Okay, here's the story. I bought the Christmas LEDs from a garage sale
    with ten missing LEDs. The guy that sold it to me said his brother took
    ten of the super bright LEDs out to make a project. So he gave me a deal
    and sold a Christmas light that is half working. As in 30 LEDs are lit but
    the other 20 are not because they are missing ten.

    The original question asked for the resistor value to be put in place of the
    missing 10 LEDs. Someone answered 45 megohms. So that means
    I need 10, 45 megohms resistor, correct?

    Now in order to get the other 20 LED working again I will cut and splice
    the wire and insert just 1 resistor in series to the LEDs. I'm not sure what is
    the correct value would be or even sure if the 120V will affect the 20
    LEDs which now wants 80VAC. If the LEDs are current dependant,
    what would be the correct resistor value?
    Sam Nickaby, Mar 11, 2006
    #15
  16. Sam Nickaby

    John Fields Guest

    On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:41:24 GMT, "Sam Nickaby" <>
    wrote:

    >"ehsjr" <> wrote
    >
    >> You do not understand the question or the circuit.
    >> The proper question is "What resistor value should be used
    >> to keep the *30* LEDs from burning out?" You had it right
    >> the previous time.
    >>
    >> The 20 LEDs *cannot* burn out - no voltage is applied to
    >> them, due to the missing LEDs.
    >>
    >> If you tell us what you are really trying to learn,
    >> perhaps we can help.
    >>
    >> Ed

    >
    >Okay, here's the story. I bought the Christmas LEDs from a garage sale
    >with ten missing LEDs. The guy that sold it to me said his brother took
    >ten of the super bright LEDs out to make a project. So he gave me a deal
    >and sold a Christmas light that is half working. As in 30 LEDs are lit but
    >the other 20 are not because they are missing ten.
    >
    >The original question asked for the resistor value to be put in place of the
    >missing 10 LEDs. Someone answered 45 megohms. So that means
    >I need 10, 45 megohms resistor, correct?


    ---
    Not correct.
    ---


    >Now in order to get the other 20 LED working again I will cut and splice
    >the wire and insert just 1 resistor in series to the LEDs. I'm not sure what is
    >the correct value would be or even sure if the 120V will affect the 20
    >LEDs which now wants 80VAC. If the LEDs are current dependant,
    >what would be the correct resistor value?


    ---
    It would seem that the strings are wired in anti-parallel and that
    with 40 in each string the voltage across any single LED would be

    120V 3V
    ------ = -----
    40LED LED

    If that's the case, then the 10 LEDS in the non-working string would
    drop:

    3V
    ----- * 10 LED = 30V
    LED

    Assuming the LEDs are passing 20mA means that the resistance you
    need to simulate the stolen LEDs is:

    E 30V
    R = --- = ------- = 1500 ohms
    I 0.02A

    and the power it will need to dissipate will be:

    P = IE = 0.02A * 30V = 0.6 watts,

    so you should use a 1500 ohm one watt resistor if you want to use a
    single resistor. Or two, 3000 ohm 1/2 watt resistors in parallel. Or
    two, 750 ohm 1/2 watt resistors in series. Those are all standard
    5% values, so you should have no trouble finding them.

    You could also bridge each socket with a single resistor per socket,
    in which case the value would be:

    E 3v
    R = --- = ------- = 150 ohms
    I 0.02A

    and the power dissipation would be:

    P = IE = 3V * 0.02A = 0.06 watts,


    so standard 5%, 150 ohm, quarter watt carbon films would be fine.
    I'd prefer that solution becasuse the resistors will barely get
    warm.

    Finally, since there will be no current flowing in the string with
    the resistors when the other string is lit, the resistors will drop
    no voltage and about 170V will appear across the 30 LEDs, which is :

    Vt 170V
    Vr = --- = ------- = 5.7V per LED
    n 30LED

    I don't know if that's higher than the spec for the lamps, but just
    in case it is, I'D go ahead and put a 1N4005, 4006, or 4007 in
    series with the resistors in that string, with the anode facing in
    the same direction as the LED anodes.

    Matter of fact, it wouldn't hurt to put one in each string to take
    the reverse load off of _all+ the LED's, like this:

    View in courier

    MAINS>---+---------+
    | |
    |A |K
    [1N4007] [IN4007]
    | |K
    [R1] [LED]
    | |K
    [R2] [LED]
    | |
    . .
    . .
    . .
    |A |K
    [LED] [LED]
    | |
    MAINS>---+---------+


    --
    John Fields
    Professional Circuit Designer
    John Fields, Mar 11, 2006
    #16
  17. Sam Nickaby

    John Fields Guest

    On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:23:13 -0600, John Fields
    <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:41:24 GMT, "Sam Nickaby" <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>"ehsjr" <> wrote
    >>
    >>> You do not understand the question or the circuit.
    >>> The proper question is "What resistor value should be used
    >>> to keep the *30* LEDs from burning out?" You had it right
    >>> the previous time.
    >>>
    >>> The 20 LEDs *cannot* burn out - no voltage is applied to
    >>> them, due to the missing LEDs.
    >>>
    >>> If you tell us what you are really trying to learn,
    >>> perhaps we can help.
    >>>
    >>> Ed

    >>
    >>Okay, here's the story. I bought the Christmas LEDs from a garage sale
    >>with ten missing LEDs. The guy that sold it to me said his brother took
    >>ten of the super bright LEDs out to make a project. So he gave me a deal
    >>and sold a Christmas light that is half working. As in 30 LEDs are lit but
    >>the other 20 are not because they are missing ten.
    >>
    >>The original question asked for the resistor value to be put in place of the
    >>missing 10 LEDs. Someone answered 45 megohms. So that means
    >>I need 10, 45 megohms resistor, correct?

    >
    >---
    >Not correct.
    >---
    >
    >
    >>Now in order to get the other 20 LED working again I will cut and splice
    >>the wire and insert just 1 resistor in series to the LEDs. I'm not sure what is
    >>the correct value would be or even sure if the 120V will affect the 20
    >>LEDs which now wants 80VAC. If the LEDs are current dependant,
    >>what would be the correct resistor value?

    >



    ---
    Oops... I misread it as 40 LEDs in the working string.
    Corrections follow:

    >It would seem that the strings are wired in anti-parallel and that
    >with 40 in each string the voltage across any single LED would be
    >

    120V 4V
    ------ = -----
    30LED LED

    >If that's the case, then the 10 LEDS in the non-working string would
    >drop:
    >

    4V
    ----- * 10 LED = 40V
    LED
    >
    >Assuming the LEDs are passing 20mA means that the resistance you
    >need to simulate the stolen LEDs is:
    >

    E 40V
    R = --- = ------- = 2000 ohms
    I 0.02A
    >
    >and the power it will need to dissipate will be:
    >
    > P = IE = 0.02A * 40V = 0.8 watts,
    >

    so you should use a 2000 ohm two watt resistor if you want to use a
    single resistor. Or two, 3900 ohm 1 watt resistors in parallel. Or
    two, 1000 ohm 1 watt resistors in series. Those are all standard
    5% values, so you should have no trouble finding them.

    >You could also bridge each socket with a single resistor per socket,
    >in which case the value would be:


    E 4v
    R = --- = ------- = 200 ohms
    I 0.02A

    >and the power dissipation would be:
    >

    P = IE = 3V * 0.02A = 0.08 watts,
    >
    >
    >so standard 5%, 150 ohm, quarter watt carbon films would be fine.
    >I'd prefer that solution becasuse the resistors will barely get
    >warm.
    >
    >Finally, since there will be no current flowing in the string with
    >the resistors when the other string is lit, the resistors will drop

    no voltage and about 170V will appear across the 20 LEDs, which is :

    Vt 170V
    Vr = --- = ------- = 8.5V per LED
    n 20LED

    I'm sure that'll be higher than the reverse voltage spec for the
    lamps spec for the lamps, so what I'd do would be to go ahead and
    put a 1N4005, 4006, or 4007 in series with the resistors in that
    string, with the anode facing in the same direction as the LED
    anodes.
    Matter of fact, it wouldn't hurt to put one in each string to take
    the reverse load off of _all_ of the LED's, like this:

    >View in courier
    >
    >MAINS>---+---------+
    > | |
    > |A |K
    > [1N4007] [IN4007]
    > | |K
    > [R1] [LED]
    > | |K
    > [R2] [LED]
    > | |
    > . .
    > . .
    > . .
    > |A |K
    > [LED] [LED]
    > | |
    >MAINS>---+---------+



    --
    John Fields
    Professional Circuit Designer
    John Fields, Mar 11, 2006
    #17
  18. Sam Nickaby

    redbelly Guest

    Sam Nickaby wrote:

    > The original question asked for the resistor value to be put in place of the
    > missing 10 LEDs. Someone answered 45 megohms. So that means
    > I need 10, 45 megohms resistor, correct?


    No, that was not a serious answer. 45 M-ohm is way too high. That
    poster suggested it to insure that the LED's do not burn out, which was
    the question you were asking at that time. Unfortunately they will not
    light up with 45 Meg.

    Some information is still missing. There should already be a resistor
    in the circuit, based on having 30 LED's. You need to know how much to
    ADD to that resistance, NOT how much total resistance is needed for 20
    LED's.

    Mark
    redbelly, Mar 11, 2006
    #18
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