Natural Gas to Propane conversion for genset?

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by Carla Fong, Jan 16, 2005.

  1. Carla Fong

    Carla Fong Guest

    Hello all -

    we've acquired an Onan JS series genset that was plumbed for Natural Gas....

    It has a Garretson KS regulator (Zero Governor) feeding to the carburetor
    venturi...

    Can I use the same regulator and just supply it with propane at appropriate
    pressure?

    Thanks in advance...

    Carla
     
    Carla Fong, Jan 16, 2005
    #1
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  2. Carla Fong

    beertender Guest

    On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:42:42 GMT, "Carla Fong" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >
    >Hello all -
    >
    >we've acquired an Onan JS series genset that was plumbed for Natural Gas....
    >
    >It has a Garretson KS regulator (Zero Governor) feeding to the carburetor
    >venturi...
    >
    >Can I use the same regulator and just supply it with propane at appropriate
    >pressure?
    >
    >Thanks in advance...
    >
    >Carla
    >
    >


    Yes you can. You probably have a "KN" regulator, not "KS". (typo?)

    You can feed it low pressure propane, not to exceed 11" WC pressure.
    You will need to adjust the load block a bit leaner. This will usually be a
    needle valve either in the hose from regulator to carb, or mounted directly
    to the regulator or carb.

    zero
     
    beertender, Jan 16, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Carla Fong

    Carla Fong Guest

    "beertender" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:42:42 GMT, "Carla Fong"

    <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Hello all -
    > >
    > >we've acquired an Onan JS series genset that was plumbed for Natural

    Gas....
    > >
    > >It has a Garretson KS regulator (Zero Governor) feeding to the carburetor
    > >venturi...
    > >
    > >Can I use the same regulator and just supply it with propane at

    appropriate
    > >pressure?
    > >
    > >Thanks in advance...
    > >
    > >Carla
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Yes you can. You probably have a "KN" regulator, not "KS". (typo?)
    >
    > You can feed it low pressure propane, not to exceed 11" WC pressure.
    > You will need to adjust the load block a bit leaner. This will usually be

    a
    > needle valve either in the hose from regulator to carb, or mounted

    directly
    > to the regulator or carb.
    >
    > zero


    Thanks - and yes, you are correct, it is a KN regulator...

    Carla
     
    Carla Fong, Jan 16, 2005
    #3
  4. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Guest

    "beertender" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:42:42 GMT, "Carla Fong" <>
    > wrote:
    > >

    >
    > Yes you can. You probably have a "KN" regulator, not "KS". (typo?)
    >
    > You can feed it low pressure propane, not to exceed 11" WC pressure.
    > You will need to adjust the load block a bit leaner. This will usually be a
    > needle valve either in the hose from regulator to carb, or mounted directly
    > to the regulator or carb.


    You seem to know a bit about these things! I have an old Onan CCK that
    runs on propane, and was shocked at the fuel consumption during Florida's recent
    famous hurricane season. It would probably cost me $50.00 or more per day to
    run that thing at half load and I would be hauling those 100# tanks to the
    dealer for filling two or three times a week. I find myself thinking about the
    seals etc. in that 30+ year-old regulator and wondering if that is my problem.
    Is there any way to test it? Should I replace the regulator just because of its
    age?

    Perhaps I just need to adjust my expectations and leave "well enough" alone?

    Thanks
    Vaughn


    >
    > zero
     
    Vaughn, Jan 17, 2005
    #4
  5. Carla Fong

    beertender Guest

    On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:05:45 GMT, "Vaughn" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >"beertender" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:42:42 GMT, "Carla Fong" <>
    >> wrote:
    >> >

    >>
    >> Yes you can. You probably have a "KN" regulator, not "KS". (typo?)
    >>
    >> You can feed it low pressure propane, not to exceed 11" WC pressure.
    >> You will need to adjust the load block a bit leaner. This will usually be a
    >> needle valve either in the hose from regulator to carb, or mounted directly
    >> to the regulator or carb.

    >
    > You seem to know a bit about these things! I have an old Onan CCK that
    >runs on propane, and was shocked at the fuel consumption during Florida's recent
    >famous hurricane season. It would probably cost me $50.00 or more per day to
    >run that thing at half load and I would be hauling those 100# tanks to the
    >dealer for filling two or three times a week. I find myself thinking about the
    >seals etc. in that 30+ year-old regulator and wondering if that is my problem.
    >Is there any way to test it? Should I replace the regulator just because of its
    >age?
    >
    > Perhaps I just need to adjust my expectations and leave "well enough" alone?
    >
    >Thanks
    >Vaughn
    >


    Oof. That sure seems like a lot of propane. I generally figure on 12 hours run
    time for a 5kw gen per 30lb bbq tank. Varying loads, probably 1/2 load avg.
    (I rarely actually use bbq tanks, mostly natural gas or 500 lb tanks)

    Are you seeing flames shooting out of the muffler? Black soot in tailpipe?

    But then, I have worked on the gen end of a CCK (gasoline) and noticed
    that it has a monster of an engine. And it only runs at 1800 rpm. Maybe
    that reduces its fuel efficiency?

    As far as testing your current regulator, I can't offer much info without
    knowing the exact type you have. Beam? Impco? specific model#?

    If it's a simple demand regulator like a Garretson KN or SD, any problems
    with seals or the diaphram would show up as gas smell or it wouldn't run.

    First, make sure fuel supply pressure is correct going into whatever
    regulator you have, and that the vent holes on the regulator are clear.

    Next thing to check is the load block setting. Hold the governor/throttle
    at a fixed position, and screw the adjustment in a half turn. If Rpm's go
    up, the mixture is probably set too rich.

    Things get more complicated if your system includes either a vacuum
    lockoff or a fuel supply solenoid before the regulator. The valve seat
    might not be sealing against the orfice in the regulator properly, but
    you don't notice any gas venting out the carb when the engine is
    stopped because the lockoff is doing its job.

    A related possibility is that the conversion was originally meant for
    natural gas, and your propane pressure is high enough to lift the
    valve by pressure only, instead of by engine vacuum.

    Much can be learned by taking manometer readings before the
    regulator, and between the regulator and the load block. But if
    you try this be carefull. A couple of times I've managed to suck
    all the water out of my manometer and into the carb. (hint.. don't
    touch the choke with the engine running.

    Before I start rambling about all the different failures I've seen
    with gaseous fuel systems, maybe you could give more info about
    your fuel plumbing?

    Regulator? Lockoff? Type of carb/conversion? How many hoses
    connected to carb/manifold?

    zero
     
    beertender, Jan 17, 2005
    #5
  6. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Guest

    "beertender" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:05:45 GMT, "Vaughn" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >

    >
    > Oof. That sure seems like a lot of propane. I generally figure on 12 hours

    run
    > time for a 5kw gen per 30lb bbq tank.


    I get more like 4 hours on a standard 20# BBQ tank.

    > Varying loads, probably 1/2 load avg.
    > (I rarely actually use bbq tanks, mostly natural gas or 500 lb tanks)
    >
    > Are you seeing flames shooting out of the muffler? Black soot in tailpipe?


    No and no.
    >
    > As far as testing your current regulator, I can't offer much info without
    > knowing the exact type you have. Beam? Impco? specific model#?
    >
    > If it's a simple demand regulator like a Garretson KN


    Yes, it is a Garretson KN.

    or SD, any problems
    > with seals or the diaphram would show up as gas smell or it wouldn't run.
    >
    > First, make sure fuel supply pressure is correct going into whatever
    > regulator you have, and that the vent holes on the regulator are clear.
    >
    > Next thing to check is the load block setting. Hold the governor/throttle
    > at a fixed position, and screw the adjustment in a half turn. If Rpm's go
    > up, the mixture is probably set too rich.


    I will try that. I have never touched those adjustments. The block has a
    big screw and a little screw, I adjust the big one?

    >
    > Things get more complicated if your system includes either a vacuum
    > lockoff or a fuel supply solenoid before the regulator.


    Yes, It has a fuel supply selenoid.

    > The valve seat
    > might not be sealing against the orfice in the regulator properly, but
    > you don't notice any gas venting out the carb when the engine is
    > stopped because the lockoff is doing its job.


    OK, that makes sense.
    >
    > A related possibility is that the conversion was originally meant for
    > natural gas, and your propane pressure is high enough to lift the
    > valve by pressure only, instead of by engine vacuum.


    You never know, but this unit has been used on propane since it was a
    little baby. (As an additional topic: I would like to make my instalation
    tripple fuel. I assume I just need to hook up a line to the existing carb to
    run it on gasoline, but I would also like to be able to run it on natural gas.
    You never know what may be available after a hurricane or other disaster.)

    > Much can be learned by taking manometer readings before the
    > regulator, and between the regulator and the load block. But if
    > you try this be carefull. A couple of times I've managed to suck
    > all the water out of my manometer and into the carb. (hint.. don't
    > touch the choke with the engine running.



    >
    > Before I start rambling about all the different failures I've seen
    > with gaseous fuel systems, maybe you could give more info about
    > your fuel plumbing?


    One of those "auto switchover" regulators that fits between two 100# tanks,
    and about 20' of perhaps 3/8" copper tubing that runs direct to the KN.

    >
    > Regulator? Lockoff? Type of carb/conversion?


    The conversion was supplied straight from the Onan factory with the unit.

    > How many hoses
    > connected to carb/manifold?


    The gas block has (of course) the big fuel hose and also a tiny tube that
    runs to the base of the carb. Except for the breather, I see no other hoses.

    Thanks
    Vaughn


    >
    > zero
     
    Vaughn, Jan 17, 2005
    #6
  7. Carla Fong

    beertender Guest

    On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:15:00 GMT, "Vaughn" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >"beertender" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:05:45 GMT, "Vaughn" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >

    >>
    >> Oof. That sure seems like a lot of propane. I generally figure on 12 hours run
    >> time for a 5kw gen per 30lb bbq tank.

    >
    > I get more like 4 hours on a standard 20# BBQ tank.
    >
    >>
    >> As far as testing your current regulator, I can't offer much info without
    >> knowing the exact type you have. Beam? Impco? specific model#?
    >>
    >> If it's a simple demand regulator like a Garretson KN

    >
    > Yes, it is a Garretson KN.
    >
    >>
    >> First, make sure fuel supply pressure is correct going into whatever
    >> regulator you have, and that the vent holes on the regulator are clear.
    >>


    Supply pressure test port should be small pipe plug on side of inlet casting.
    Excess inlet pressure can open regulator and cause excess consumption.

    >> Next thing to check is the load block setting. Hold the governor/throttle
    >> at a fixed position, and screw the adjustment in a half turn. If Rpm's go
    >> up, the mixture is probably set too rich.

    >
    > I will try that. I have never touched those adjustments. The block has a
    >big screw and a little screw, I adjust the big one?
    >
    >>
    >> Things get more complicated if your system includes either a vacuum
    >> lockoff or a fuel supply solenoid before the regulator.

    >
    > Yes, It has a fuel supply selenoid.
    >
    >> The valve seat
    >> might not be sealing against the orfice in the regulator properly, but
    >> you don't notice any gas venting out the carb when the engine is
    >> stopped because the lockoff is doing its job.

    >
    > OK, that makes sense.
    >>
    >> A related possibility is that the conversion was originally meant for
    >> natural gas, and your propane pressure is high enough to lift the
    >> valve by pressure only, instead of by engine vacuum.

    >
    > You never know, but this unit has been used on propane since it was a
    >little baby. (As an additional topic: I would like to make my instalation
    >tripple fuel. I assume I just need to hook up a line to the existing carb to
    >run it on gasoline, but I would also like to be able to run it on natural gas.
    >You never know what may be available after a hurricane or other disaster.)
    >
    >> Much can be learned by taking manometer readings before the
    >> regulator, and between the regulator and the load block. But if
    >> you try this be carefull. A couple of times I've managed to suck
    >> all the water out of my manometer and into the carb. (hint.. don't
    >> touch the choke with the engine running.

    >
    >
    >>
    >> Before I start rambling about all the different failures I've seen
    >> with gaseous fuel systems, maybe you could give more info about
    >> your fuel plumbing?

    >
    > One of those "auto switchover" regulators that fits between two 100# tanks,
    >and about 20' of perhaps 3/8" copper tubing that runs direct to the KN.
    >
    >>
    >> Regulator? Lockoff? Type of carb/conversion?

    >
    > The conversion was supplied straight from the Onan factory with the unit.
    >
    >> How many hoses
    >> connected to carb/manifold?

    >
    > The gas block has (of course) the big fuel hose and also a tiny tube that
    >runs to the base of the carb. Except for the breather, I see no other hoses.
    >


    I -think- (dangerous ground here) the factory Onan gas-gasoline gensets
    run propane supply directly into KN regulator, with a 12V solenoid valve on
    the outlet of the regulator.

    Then a large (3/8? 1/2?) hose to a load block mounted directly to the carb.
    The block main feed (big screw) fed fuel directly into the carb venturi, no
    hoses involved, also a small idle bypass supply to a carb port downstream
    of the throttle butterfly. (small screw and hose)

    This sounds like what you are describing. Do you have the manuals for
    this generator? Specifically, what the initial setting should be for the
    main feed? Typically, this would be all the way in, then back out 2-3 turns.

    You can test the regulator by rigging some way to power up the solenoid
    valve with the propane supply turned on, but the generator turned off.

    NO gas should flow into the carb. Fuel should only flow when the outlet
    port is at slight vacuum. If fuel does flow, maybe regulator seat is old,
    cracked, damaged, or maybe the cutout adjustment is set wrong.

    Cutout adjustment is on front of regulator, about an inch above the
    fuel inlet. On current KN regulators, it is covered by an aluminum
    anti-tamper cover. Your older unit may use a plastic screw-in dust
    cover over the screw instead.

    If you find that regulator is passing gas when engine isn't running,
    first try smacking it with screwdriver handle. Then, if you want to
    try adjusting the cutout, turn it in 1 turn at a time until gas flow stops.
    (count how many turns so you can undo if no joy)

    If that doesn't help, time to rebuild the regulator. $20 rebuild kit.
    Or replace it. $50 (uscarb prices, not Onan prices)

    Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.

    zero
     
    beertender, Jan 18, 2005
    #7
  8. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Guest

    "beertender" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >>
    > >> If it's a simple demand regulator like a Garretson KN

    > >
    > > Yes, it is a Garretson KN.
    > >
    > >>
    > >> First, make sure fuel supply pressure is correct going into whatever
    > >> regulator you have, and that the vent holes on the regulator are clear.


    My manual only states "regulator line must be within 2 to 8 ounces". Are
    they talking about the supply to the regulator or the output? What is that in
    inches of water?

    >
    > Supply pressure test port should be small pipe plug on side of inlet casting.


    Thank you! Something else the manual does not mention.

    > Excess inlet pressure can open regulator and cause excess consumption.


    Makes sense.
    >
    > I -think- (dangerous ground here) the factory Onan gas-gasoline gensets
    > run propane supply directly into KN regulator, with a 12V solenoid valve on
    > the outlet of the regulator.


    Exactly correct, even though my manual shows the selenoid valve on the
    inlet.
    >
    > Then a large (3/8? 1/2?) hose to a load block mounted directly to the carb.
    > The block main feed (big screw) fed fuel directly into the carb venturi, no
    > hoses involved, also a small idle bypass supply to a carb port downstream
    > of the throttle butterfly. (small screw and hose)


    Yes, that seems to be correct.
    >
    > This sounds like what you are describing. Do you have the manuals for
    > this generator? Specifically, what the initial setting should be for the
    > main feed? Typically, this would be all the way in, then back out 2-3 turns.


    I have the original parts/operator's manual and the original production
    order for this old guy (it was made on 12/19/72) Let me look...

    I found it! Initial setting is two turns open.

    >
    > You can test the regulator by rigging some way to power up the solenoid
    > valve with the propane supply turned on, but the generator turned off.


    No problem.

    > NO gas should flow into the carb. Fuel should only flow when the outlet
    > port is at slight vacuum. If fuel does flow, maybe regulator seat is old,
    > cracked, damaged, or maybe the cutout adjustment is set wrong.


    OK
    >
    > Cutout adjustment is on front of regulator, about an inch above the
    > fuel inlet. On current KN regulators, it is covered by an aluminum
    > anti-tamper cover. Your older unit may use a plastic screw-in dust
    > cover over the screw instead.


    No cover at all. It looks pretty ugly in there!
    >
    > If you find that regulator is passing gas when engine isn't running,
    > first try smacking it with screwdriver handle. Then, if you want to
    > try adjusting the cutout, turn it in 1 turn at a time until gas flow stops.
    > (count how many turns so you can undo if no joy)


    Thanks!
    >
    > If that doesn't help, time to rebuild the regulator. $20 rebuild kit.
    > Or replace it. $50 (uscarb prices, not Onan prices)
    >
    > Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    > about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.


    Thank you very much for this info. This will become a permanent part of my
    file. Realistically, It will take me a week or two to do this stuff, but I will
    get back to you.

    Thanks again
    Vaughn

    >
    > zero
     
    Vaughn, Jan 18, 2005
    #8
  9. Carla Fong

    beertender Guest

    On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:20:39 GMT, "Vaughn" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >"beertender" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> >>
    >> >> If it's a simple demand regulator like a Garretson KN
    >> >
    >> > Yes, it is a Garretson KN.
    >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> First, make sure fuel supply pressure is correct going into whatever
    >> >> regulator you have, and that the vent holes on the regulator are clear.

    >
    > My manual only states "regulator line must be within 2 to 8 ounces". Are
    >they talking about the supply to the regulator or the output? What is that in
    >inches of water?
    >


    Roughly: 8oz =1/2psi = 1 ft H2O (12 in wc)
    so 2oz = 3 in wc.

    But don't trust the manual, check the specs stamped into the bosses
    on the regulator you actually have on your generator.

    >>
    >> Supply pressure test port should be small pipe plug on side of inlet casting.

    >
    > Thank you! Something else the manual does not mention.
    >
    >> Excess inlet pressure can open regulator and cause excess consumption.

    >
    > Makes sense.
    >>
    >> I -think- (dangerous ground here) the factory Onan gas-gasoline gensets
    >> run propane supply directly into KN regulator, with a 12V solenoid valve on
    >> the outlet of the regulator.

    >
    > Exactly correct, even though my manual shows the selenoid valve on the
    >inlet.
    >>
    >> Then a large (3/8? 1/2?) hose to a load block mounted directly to the carb.
    >> The block main feed (big screw) fed fuel directly into the carb venturi, no
    >> hoses involved, also a small idle bypass supply to a carb port downstream
    >> of the throttle butterfly. (small screw and hose)

    >
    > Yes, that seems to be correct.
    >>
    >> This sounds like what you are describing. Do you have the manuals for
    >> this generator? Specifically, what the initial setting should be for the
    >> main feed? Typically, this would be all the way in, then back out 2-3 turns.

    >
    > I have the original parts/operator's manual and the original production
    >order for this old guy (it was made on 12/19/72) Let me look...
    >
    > I found it! Initial setting is two turns open.
    >
    >>
    >> You can test the regulator by rigging some way to power up the solenoid
    >> valve with the propane supply turned on, but the generator turned off.

    >
    >No problem.
    >
    >> NO gas should flow into the carb. Fuel should only flow when the outlet
    >> port is at slight vacuum. If fuel does flow, maybe regulator seat is old,
    >> cracked, damaged, or maybe the cutout adjustment is set wrong.

    >
    > OK
    >>
    >> Cutout adjustment is on front of regulator, about an inch above the
    >> fuel inlet. On current KN regulators, it is covered by an aluminum
    >> anti-tamper cover. Your older unit may use a plastic screw-in dust
    >> cover over the screw instead.

    >
    > No cover at all. It looks pretty ugly in there!


    Your local propane dealer can probably sell you one cheap. At least
    throw a piece of tape over the hole.

    >>
    >> If you find that regulator is passing gas when engine isn't running,
    >> first try smacking it with screwdriver handle. Then, if you want to
    >> try adjusting the cutout, turn it in 1 turn at a time until gas flow stops.
    >> (count how many turns so you can undo if no joy)

    >
    > Thanks!
    >>
    >> If that doesn't help, time to rebuild the regulator. $20 rebuild kit.
    >> Or replace it. $50 (uscarb prices, not Onan prices)
    >>
    >> Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    >> about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.

    >
    > Thank you very much for this info. This will become a permanent part of my
    >file. Realistically, It will take me a week or two to do this stuff, but I will
    >get back to you.
    >
    >Thanks again
    >Vaughn
    >


    np, zero
     
    beertender, Jan 18, 2005
    #9
  10. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Simon Guest

    "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    >
    > Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    > regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    > with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    > keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    > regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .


    Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud daubers
    here in South Florida.
    >
    > >Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    > >about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.

    >
    > One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    > or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load. Wastes
    > fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm told)
    > in the heads.


    Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am getting,
    around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is $50.00/day or
    $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!

    Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to make a
    Honda EU look good.

    Vaughn


    >
    > Loren
    >
     
    Vaughn Simon, Jan 18, 2005
    #10
  11. Carla Fong

    Steve Spence Guest

    Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a side
    benefit.

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    http://www.green-trust.org

    Contributing Editor
    http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

    Vaughn Simon wrote:
    > "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    >>
    >>Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    >>regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    >>with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    >>keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    >>regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .

    >
    >
    > Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud daubers
    > here in South Florida.
    >
    >>>Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    >>>about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.

    >>
    >>One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    >>or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load. Wastes
    >>fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm told)
    >>in the heads.

    >
    >
    > Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am getting,
    > around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is $50.00/day or
    > $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!
    >
    > Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to make a
    > Honda EU look good.
    >
    > Vaughn
    >
    >
    >
    >>Loren
    >>

    >
    >
    >
     
    Steve Spence, Jan 18, 2005
    #11
  12. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Guest

    "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    news:UqdHd.159447$...
    > Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a side
    > benefit.


    I figured you might have something to say here Steve. If we keep getting
    multiple hurricanes down here, that just may be a good idea.

    Vaughn
     
    Vaughn, Jan 18, 2005
    #12
  13. Carla Fong

    Andy Baker Guest

    Steve,

    Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me one
    and could use a bit of advice.

    Andy

    "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    news:UqdHd.159447$...
    | Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a side
    | benefit.
    |
    | Steve Spence
    | Dir., Green Trust
    | http://www.green-trust.org
    |
    | Contributing Editor
    | http://www.off-grid.net
    | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    |
    | Vaughn Simon wrote:
    | > "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    | > news:...
    | >
    | >>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    | >>
    | >>Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    | >>regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    | >>with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    | >>keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    | >>regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .
    | >
    | >
    | > Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud
    daubers
    | > here in South Florida.
    | >
    | >>>Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    | >>>about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.
    | >>
    | >>One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    | >>or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load. Wastes
    | >>fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm told)
    | >>in the heads.
    | >
    | >
    | > Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am
    getting,
    | > around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is $50.00/day
    or
    | > $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!
    | >
    | > Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to make
    a
    | > Honda EU look good.
    | >
    | > Vaughn
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | >>Loren
    | >>
    | >
    | >
    | >
     
    Andy Baker, Jan 19, 2005
    #13
  14. Carla Fong

    Steve Spence Guest

    Just so happens that I do.

    http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_&_Power_System

    Plus there is an article on it in the latest issue of ESSN
    (www.rebelwolf.com)

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    http://www.green-trust.org

    Contributing Editor
    http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

    Andy Baker wrote:
    > Steve,
    >
    > Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me one
    > and could use a bit of advice.
    >
    > Andy
    >
    > "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    > news:UqdHd.159447$...
    > | Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a side
    > | benefit.
    > |
    > | Steve Spence
    > | Dir., Green Trust
    > | http://www.green-trust.org
    > |
    > | Contributing Editor
    > | http://www.off-grid.net
    > | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    > |
    > | Vaughn Simon wrote:
    > | > "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    > | > news:...
    > | >
    > | >>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    > | >>
    > | >>Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    > | >>regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    > | >>with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    > | >>keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    > | >>regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .
    > | >
    > | >
    > | > Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud
    > daubers
    > | > here in South Florida.
    > | >
    > | >>>Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    > | >>>about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.
    > | >>
    > | >>One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    > | >>or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load. Wastes
    > | >>fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm told)
    > | >>in the heads.
    > | >
    > | >
    > | > Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am
    > getting,
    > | > around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is $50.00/day
    > or
    > | > $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!
    > | >
    > | > Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to make
    > a
    > | > Honda EU look good.
    > | >
    > | > Vaughn
    > | >
    > | >
    > | >
    > | >>Loren
    > | >>
    > | >
    > | >
    > | >
    >
    >
     
    Steve Spence, Jan 19, 2005
    #14
  15. Carla Fong

    Steve Spence Guest

    Re: VeggieGen 2-stroke? (was Natural Gas to Propane genset)

    To paraphrase "how stuff works":

    Diesels, which compress only air and then inject the fuel directly into
    the compressed air, are a much better match with the two-stroke cycle.
    Many manufacturers of large diesel engines use this approach to create
    high-power engines.

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-two-stroke1.htm

    Yes, the noise and vibration is "interesting".

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    http://www.green-trust.org

    Contributing Editor
    http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

    Loren Amelang wrote:
    > On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:37:52 GMT, Steve Spence
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Just so happens that I do.
    >>
    >>http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_&_Power_System
    >>
    >>Plus there is an article on it in the latest issue of ESSN
    >>(www.rebelwolf.com)

    >
    > ...
    >
    >>Andy Baker wrote:
    >>
    >>>Steve,
    >>>
    >>>Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me one
    >>>and could use a bit of advice.

    >
    >
    > "This engine is a 2 cylinder, 142 cu. in. (71 x 2), 2-cycle...
    > Detroit Diesel 2-71"
    >
    > I'm curious why a 2-cycle engine for a stationary generator. I can see
    > the advantage of higher power-to-weight in a vehicle, but it seems the
    > disadvantages would rule in a generator. Is it just the long history
    > of the '71s, or price, or what?
    >
    > I guess burning veggie helps with the emissions and smell. Must sound
    > interesting...
    >
    > Loren
    >
     
    Steve Spence, Jan 19, 2005
    #15
  16. Carla Fong

    Andy Baker Guest

    Re: VeggieGen 2-stroke? (was Natural Gas to Propane genset)

    http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

    This link popped up somewhere around here like... yesterday maybe? It's a
    two stroke diesel..... on the large side.


    "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    | On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:37:52 GMT, Steve Spence
    | <> wrote:
    |
    | >Just so happens that I do.
    | >
    |
    >http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_&_Power_System

    | >
    | >Plus there is an article on it in the latest issue of ESSN
    | >(www.rebelwolf.com)
    | ...
    | >Andy Baker wrote:
    | >> Steve,
    | >>
    | >> Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me
    one
    | >> and could use a bit of advice.
    |
    | "This engine is a 2 cylinder, 142 cu. in. (71 x 2), 2-cycle...
    | Detroit Diesel 2-71"
    |
    | I'm curious why a 2-cycle engine for a stationary generator. I can see
    | the advantage of higher power-to-weight in a vehicle, but it seems the
    | disadvantages would rule in a generator. Is it just the long history
    | of the '71s, or price, or what?
    |
    | I guess burning veggie helps with the emissions and smell. Must sound
    | interesting...
    |
    | Loren
    |
     
    Andy Baker, Jan 19, 2005
    #16
  17. Carla Fong

    Steve Spence Guest

    Re: VeggieGen 2-stroke? (was Natural Gas to Propane genset)

    What disadvantage's are you referring to?

    The -71's came in many cylinder configurations (3-71, 4-71, 6-71, etc.)
    for different applications, both mobile and stationary. All the parts
    are the same, just the number of cylinders varied. I was in a boat once
    that used a 4-71 for power, and had a 2-71 for electrical. Only needed
    one type of parts kit.

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    http://www.green-trust.org

    Contributing Editor
    http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

    Loren Amelang wrote:

    >
    > "This engine is a 2 cylinder, 142 cu. in. (71 x 2), 2-cycle...
    > Detroit Diesel 2-71"
    >
    > I'm curious why a 2-cycle engine for a stationary generator. I can see
    > the advantage of higher power-to-weight in a vehicle, but it seems the
    > disadvantages would rule in a generator. Is it just the long history
    > of the '71s, or price, or what?
    >
    > I guess burning veggie helps with the emissions and smell. Must sound
    > interesting...
    >
    > Loren
    >
     
    Steve Spence, Jan 19, 2005
    #17
  18. Carla Fong

    Andy Baker Guest

    Any guess on how many BTU's an hour you extract as heat on your veggiegen?
    In the winter, as you're well aware -- (sorry to hear about your woodstove
    by the way) - heat with an added bonus of power is more important than
    power with the added bonus of heat.

    Andy

    "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    news:A1wHd.151373$...
    | Just so happens that I do.
    |
    |
    http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_&_Power_System
    |
    | Plus there is an article on it in the latest issue of ESSN
    | (www.rebelwolf.com)
    |
    | Steve Spence
    | Dir., Green Trust
    | http://www.green-trust.org
    |
    | Contributing Editor
    | http://www.off-grid.net
    | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    |
    | Andy Baker wrote:
    | > Steve,
    | >
    | > Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me
    one
    | > and could use a bit of advice.
    | >
    | > Andy
    | >
    | > "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    | > news:UqdHd.159447$...
    | > | Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a
    side
    | > | benefit.
    | > |
    | > | Steve Spence
    | > | Dir., Green Trust
    | > | http://www.green-trust.org
    | > |
    | > | Contributing Editor
    | > | http://www.off-grid.net
    | > | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    | > |
    | > | Vaughn Simon wrote:
    | > | > "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    | > | > news:...
    | > | >
    | > | >>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    | > | >>
    | > | >>Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    | > | >>regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    | > | >>with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    | > | >>keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    | > | >>regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | > Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud
    | > daubers
    | > | > here in South Florida.
    | > | >
    | > | >>>Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    | > | >>>about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.
    | > | >>
    | > | >>One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    | > | >>or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load.
    Wastes
    | > | >>fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm
    told)
    | > | >>in the heads.
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | > Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am
    | > getting,
    | > | > around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is
    $50.00/day
    | > or
    | > | > $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!
    | > | >
    | > | > Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to
    make
    | > a
    | > | > Honda EU look good.
    | > | >
    | > | > Vaughn
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | >>Loren
    | > | >>
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | >
    | >
     
    Andy Baker, Jan 20, 2005
    #18
  19. Carla Fong

    Steve Spence Guest

    I don't know yet. The heat is primarily used for heating the veggie oil
    fuel, but I circulate a separate coolant loop to the domestic hot water
    input through a heat exchanger, and it keeps the dhw tank about 80F
    without propane.

    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust
    http://www.green-trust.org

    Contributing Editor
    http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

    Andy Baker wrote:
    > Any guess on how many BTU's an hour you extract as heat on your veggiegen?
    > In the winter, as you're well aware -- (sorry to hear about your woodstove
    > by the way) - heat with an added bonus of power is more important than
    > power with the added bonus of heat.
    >
    > Andy
    >
    > "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    > news:A1wHd.151373$...
    > | Just so happens that I do.
    > |
    > |
    > http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_&_Power_System
    > |
    > | Plus there is an article on it in the latest issue of ESSN
    > | (www.rebelwolf.com)
    > |
    > | Steve Spence
    > | Dir., Green Trust
    > | http://www.green-trust.org
    > |
    > | Contributing Editor
    > | http://www.off-grid.net
    > | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    > |
    > | Andy Baker wrote:
    > | > Steve,
    > | >
    > | > Surely, you have a web page dedicated to this generator? I gotta get me
    > one
    > | > and could use a bit of advice.
    > | >
    > | > Andy
    > | >
    > | > "Steve Spence" <> wrote in message
    > | > news:UqdHd.159447$...
    > | > | Can't beat $0.06 / kWh with our Veggiegen, and free hot water as a
    > side
    > | > | benefit.
    > | > |
    > | > | Steve Spence
    > | > | Dir., Green Trust
    > | > | http://www.green-trust.org
    > | > |
    > | > | Contributing Editor
    > | > | http://www.off-grid.net
    > | > | http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
    > | > |
    > | > | Vaughn Simon wrote:
    > | > | > "Loren Amelang" <> wrote in message
    > | > | > news:...
    > | > | >
    > | > | >>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:20:27 GMT, (beertender)
    > | > | >>
    > | > | >>Before you do that, be sure the vent for the atmospheric side of the
    > | > | >>regulator diaphragm is clear. I found insects love to pack it solid
    > | > | >>with mud - happened so many times I designed a screened fitting to
    > | > | >>keep them away from it. Blowing or sucking on the vent side of the
    > | > | >>regulator should close or open it with almost no effort. .
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | > | > Thanks, that will be very easy to do, and we do have those mud
    > | > daubers
    > | > | > here in South Florida.
    > | > | >
    > | > | >>>Maybe 1 gallon per hour is normal for this gen. Iirc, gasoline was
    > | > | >>>about $0.50 / gallon in the 70's, and propane was even cheaper.
    > | > | >>
    > | > | >>One GPH has been about average for my CCK5, running with a half load
    > | > | >>or more. It really dislikes running without a significant load.
    > Wastes
    > | > | >>fuel, fouls plugs, and makes lots of "carbon" (actually wax, I'm
    > told)
    > | > | >>in the heads.
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | > | > Come to think of it, that is not horribly far from what I am
    > | > getting,
    > | > | > around 4+ hours on a 20# BBQ tank. At $2.00/gallon that is
    > $50.00/day
    > | > or
    > | > | > $1,500/month of 24/7 operation! Kind of takes your breath away!
    > | > | >
    > | > | > Say what you want, the grid is a bargain. This is starting to
    > make
    > | > a
    > | > | > Honda EU look good.
    > | > | >
    > | > | > Vaughn
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | > | >>Loren
    > | > | >>
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | > | >
    > | >
    > | >
    >
    >
     
    Steve Spence, Jan 20, 2005
    #19
  20. Carla Fong

    Vaughn Guest

    "Vaughn" <> wrote in message
    news:Xn_Gd.19120$...
    >
    >> You can test the regulator by rigging some way to power up the solenoid
    >> valve with the propane supply turned on, but the generator turned off.

    >
    > No problem.
    >
    >> NO gas should flow into the carb. Fuel should only flow when the outlet
    >> port is at slight vacuum. If fuel does flow, maybe regulator seat is old,
    >> cracked, damaged, or maybe the cutout adjustment is set wrong.


    Did it. First disconnected valve wire with engine running and verified
    that engine stopped, and then connected valve to 12 volts with engine off and
    verified no fuel flow from regulator.
    >>
    >> If you find that regulator is passing gas when engine isn't running,
    >> first try smacking it with screwdriver handle. Then, if you want to
    >> try adjusting the cutout, turn it in 1 turn at a time until gas flow stops.
    >> (count how many turns so you can undo if no joy)


    It was fine.

    > Thank you very much for this info. This will become a permanent part of
    > my
    > file. Realistically, It will take me a week or two to do this stuff, but I
    > will
    > get back to you.


    My fuel pressure was about 12" water, I set it down to about 10. Adjusted
    the engine leaner, but then had to back off when I found it would not run well
    cold. Don't know if it is back in the same place or not. Ran the generator
    with a good load and all is fine. I tapped into the carb supply line and, like
    you said, it runs a tiny negative pressure, perhaps 1/4"

    The bottom line is that I have verified that all of the gas hardware works
    and there is no reason to replace it just because of its age. I guess what I
    have is just what I have. As you pointed out, it was made for a world where
    fuel was cheap. That generator has a huge blower that probably wastes at least
    a couple of horsepower just moving air.

    I did the math and it will be cheaper to run it on natural gas, so I guess
    it is time to dig the trench and connect it up. I will plumb it with two valves
    so I have dual fuel available. I am going to build a transistor ignition and
    give the 'ole thing a good tune-up before next hurricane season and then hope
    for the best.

    Thanks for all help.
    Vaughn


    >
    > Thanks again
    > Vaughn
    >
    >>
    >> zero

    >
    >
     
    Vaughn, Feb 2, 2005
    #20
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