Make-Your-Own Bandgap Reference

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Jim Thompson, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    For a simple-minded/make-your-own bandgap reference, see

    "CA3046-BandGap.pdf"

    on the S.E.D/Schematics page on my website.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 10, 2004
    #1
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  2. On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:16:41 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
    <> wrote in
    <>:

    >For a simple-minded/make-your-own bandgap reference, see
    >
    > "CA3046-BandGap.pdf"
    >
    >on the S.E.D/Schematics page on my website.

    Nice.
    JP
    Jan Panteltje, Apr 11, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Jim Thompson

    Joerg Guest

    That sure is nice. The only fly in the ointment would be that the 3046
    is now around 30c or so while the LMV431 costs half that and has it all
    in there. But I always liked the 3046. Jim, since you designed so many
    chips, did you do this one as well?

    Regards, Joerg.
    Joerg, Apr 11, 2004
    #3
  4. Joerg wrote...
    >
    > That sure is nice. The only fly in the ointment would be that the 3046
    > is now around 30c or so while the LMV431 costs half that and has it all
    > in there. But I always liked the 3046. Jim, since you designed so many
    > chips, did you do this one as well?


    The CA3096 was a more attractive chip to me, with three npn and
    two pnp transistors. I used this RCA chip in the early 70s to
    make a micropower (5uA) band-gap voltage reference, and we made
    many hundreds of them, in deep-sea oceanographic instruments.

    Thanks,
    - Win

    whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
    Winfield Hill, Apr 11, 2004
    #4
  5. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:24:01 GMT, Joerg
    <> wrote:

    >That sure is nice. The only fly in the ointment would be that the 3046
    >is now around 30c or so while the LMV431 costs half that and has it all
    >in there. But I always liked the 3046. Jim, since you designed so many
    >chips, did you do this one as well?
    >
    >Regards, Joerg.
    >


    No. Didn't do 3046 or any TL/LMV, but I've literally done hundreds of
    BandGaps over the years.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 11, 2004
    #5
  6. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:24:01 GMT, Joerg
    <> wrote:

    >That sure is nice. The only fly in the ointment would be that the 3046
    >is now around 30c or so while the LMV431 costs half that and has it all
    >in there. But I always liked the 3046. Jim, since you designed so many
    >chips, did you do this one as well?
    >
    >Regards, Joerg.
    >


    See "BandGap-RealSample.pdf" on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my
    website for a design that is in production.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 11, 2004
    #6
  7. Jim Thompson

    Sal Brisindi Guest

    Jim,
    What program do you use to create your schematics?

    Regards,
    Sal Brisindi
    www.tuberadios.com

    Jim Thompson wrote:

    > For a simple-minded/make-your-own bandgap reference, see
    >
    > "CA3046-BandGap.pdf"
    >
    > on the S.E.D/Schematics page on my website.
    >
    > ...Jim Thompson
    > --
    > | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    > | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    > | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    > | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    > | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    > | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
    >
    > I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Sal Brisindi, Apr 11, 2004
    #7
  8. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:59:05 GMT, Sal Brisindi <>
    wrote:

    >Jim,
    >What program do you use to create your schematics?
    >
    >Regards,
    >Sal Brisindi
    >www.tuberadios.com
    >

    [snip]

    PSpice Schematics... what originally shipped when PSpice was owned by
    MicroSim. The word is that OrCAD is going to drop support at the next
    PSpice release, at which time I will be dumping PSpice for an
    up-and-coming PSpice look-alike.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 11, 2004
    #8
  9. Jim Thompson

    Sal Brisindi Guest

    Thanks Jim

    Jim Thompson wrote:

    > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:59:05 GMT, Sal Brisindi <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Jim,
    > >What program do you use to create your schematics?
    > >
    > >Regards,
    > >Sal Brisindi
    > >www.tuberadios.com
    > >

    > [snip]
    >
    > PSpice Schematics... what originally shipped when PSpice was owned by
    > MicroSim. The word is that OrCAD is going to drop support at the next
    > PSpice release, at which time I will be dumping PSpice for an
    > up-and-coming PSpice look-alike.
    >
    > ...Jim Thompson
    > --
    > | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    > | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    > | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    > | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    > | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    > | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
    >
    > I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Sal Brisindi, Apr 11, 2004
    #9
  10. "Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > For a simple-minded/make-your-own bandgap reference, see
    >
    > "CA3046-BandGap.pdf"
    >
    > on the S.E.D/Schematics page on my website.
    >
    > ...Jim Thompson
    > --


    Presumably the CA3046 is used because the three transistors are all on
    the same chip and they are matched and thermal drift is the same for all
    three. But how much degradation would there be with three discrete
    transistors? Seems like everything today has changed from the old dual
    transistors or arrays to a single chip solution. Nothing wrong with the
    old way, but I'd guess that performance is better with the all-in-one
    single chip.
    Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\, Apr 11, 2004
    #10
  11. "Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:59:05 GMT, Sal Brisindi <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Jim,
    > >What program do you use to create your schematics?
    > >
    > >Regards,
    > >Sal Brisindi
    > >www.tuberadios.com
    > >

    > [snip]
    >
    > PSpice Schematics... what originally shipped when PSpice was owned by
    > MicroSim. The word is that OrCAD is going to drop support at the next
    > PSpice release, at which time I will be dumping PSpice for an
    > up-and-coming PSpice look-alike.


    What's it cost?


    > ...Jim Thompson
    > --
    Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\, Apr 11, 2004
    #11
  12. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:20:11 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
    Dark Remover\"" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:59:05 GMT, Sal Brisindi <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Jim,
    >> >What program do you use to create your schematics?
    >> >
    >> >Regards,
    >> >Sal Brisindi
    >> >www.tuberadios.com
    >> >

    >> [snip]
    >>
    >> PSpice Schematics... what originally shipped when PSpice was owned by
    >> MicroSim. The word is that OrCAD is going to drop support at the next
    >> PSpice release, at which time I will be dumping PSpice for an
    >> up-and-coming PSpice look-alike.

    >
    >What's it cost?
    >

    [snip]

    I can't say anything right now... it's still in Beta testing.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 11, 2004
    #12
  13. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:15:54 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
    Dark Remover\"" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> For a simple-minded/make-your-own bandgap reference, see
    >>
    >> "CA3046-BandGap.pdf"
    >>
    >> on the S.E.D/Schematics page on my website.
    >>
    >> ...Jim Thompson
    >> --

    >
    >Presumably the CA3046 is used because the three transistors are all on
    >the same chip and they are matched and thermal drift is the same for all
    >three. But how much degradation would there be with three discrete
    >transistors? Seems like everything today has changed from the old dual
    >transistors or arrays to a single chip solution. Nothing wrong with the
    >old way, but I'd guess that performance is better with the all-in-one
    >single chip.
    >
    >


    That's why a TL431 or an LMV version is so good... thermal equilibrium
    plus a full op-amp gain to force near-perfect balance.

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 11, 2004
    #13
  14. Jim Thompson

    John Larkin Guest

    On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:54:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
    <> wrote:

    >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 01:24:01 GMT, Joerg
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>That sure is nice. The only fly in the ointment would be that the 3046
    >>is now around 30c or so while the LMV431 costs half that and has it all
    >>in there. But I always liked the 3046. Jim, since you designed so many
    >>chips, did you do this one as well?
    >>
    >>Regards, Joerg.
    >>

    >
    >No. Didn't do 3046 or any TL/LMV, but I've literally done hundreds of
    >BandGaps over the years.
    >
    > ...Jim Thompson



    The first integrated opamp I ever used was made by GE. It was all NPNs
    and zener diodes inside, and it was noisy, slow, noisy, quirky, and
    noisy. I wish I could remember the part number, and maybe find a
    datasheet. GE used to make all sorts of fun stuff: reference
    transistors, snap diodes, integrated back-to-back zeners, tunnel
    diodes, UJTs and PUTs, unintended phototransistors.

    Before that, we used to make our own opamps, a bunch of discretes with
    a selected pair of NPNs shrink-tubed together in the front end. By
    adjusting one collector resistor, you could tune the TC... below 1
    uV/degC wasn't hard.

    Don't really miss much of that: we'd build a rack-full system with
    maybe a hundred equivalent gates and a few opamps; it would take
    months to build and weeks to get to work. Now we do a board with a
    million or so equivalent gates, 70 or so linear functions, whip it out
    in six weeks, and bring it up in a few days.

    John
    John Larkin, Apr 11, 2004
    #14
  15. "Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 10:20:11 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
    > Dark Remover\"" <> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Jim Thompson" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:59:05 GMT, Sal Brisindi <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Jim,
    > >> >What program do you use to create your schematics?
    > >> >
    > >> >Regards,
    > >> >Sal Brisindi
    > >> >www.tuberadios.com
    > >> >
    > >> [snip]
    > >>
    > >> PSpice Schematics... what originally shipped when PSpice was owned by
    > >> MicroSim. The word is that OrCAD is going to drop support at the next
    > >> PSpice release, at which time I will be dumping PSpice for an
    > >> up-and-coming PSpice look-alike.

    > >
    > >What's it cost?
    > >

    > [snip]
    >
    > I can't say anything right now... it's still in Beta testing.
    >


    We are using Orcad Capture Version 10 at work. I think it was something like
    10k$ for a floating license

    Cheers

    Klaus
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund, Apr 12, 2004
    #15
  16. On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:04:33 +0200) it happened "Klaus
    Vestergaard Kragelund" <> wrote in
    <407a7782$0$211$>:

    >
    >We are using Orcad Capture Version 10 at work. I think it was something like
    >10k$ for a floating license
    >
    >Cheers
    >
    >Klaus

    If you just want schematics in postscript, and no spice, in Linux xcircuit it
    was called I think, does it 4 free.
    JP
    Jan Panteltje, Apr 12, 2004
    #16
  17. Jan Panteltje wrote:

    > On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:04:33 +0200) it happened "Klaus
    > Vestergaard Kragelund" <> wrote in
    > <407a7782$0$211$>:


    >>We are using Orcad Capture Version 10 at work. I think it was something like
    >>10k$ for a floating license


    >>Cheers


    >>Klaus


    > If you just want schematics in postscript, and no spice, in Linux xcircuit it
    > was called I think, does it 4 free.
    > JP


    Question is, does it compile and/or run under WIndoze? If not, then
    forget it. Note: I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I just said
    that no one will want to deal with it, since most people aren't using Linux.
    Watson A.Name \Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\, Apr 13, 2004
    #17
  18. On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:14:15 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name
    \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <> wrote in
    <c5f7pe$6md15$>:
    Question is, does it compile and/or run under WIndoze? If not, then
    >forget it. Note: I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I just said
    >that no one will want to deal with it, since most people aren't using Linux.
    >

    Na, MS windows will soon be illegal here.
    Jan Panteltje, Apr 13, 2004
    #18
  19. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:11:04 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <> wrote:

    >On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:14:15 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name
    >\"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <> wrote in
    ><c5f7pe$6md15$>:
    >Question is, does it compile and/or run under WIndoze? If not, then
    >>forget it. Note: I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I just said
    >>that no one will want to deal with it, since most people aren't using Linux.
    >>

    >Na, MS windows will soon be illegal here.


    Your politicians can't be bribed ?:)

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
    Jim Thompson, Apr 13, 2004
    #19
  20. Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote...
    >
    > We are using Orcad Capture Version 10 at work. I think
    > it was something like 10k$ for a floating license


    What's a floating license?

    Thanks,
    - Win

    whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
    Winfield Hill, Apr 13, 2004
    #20
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