Hydrogen Gas for cooking

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by Karl, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Karl

    Karl Guest

    I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has it
    ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use gas
    for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    hyrdogen for a gas stove.

    Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just curious
    if this has been done or how feasible it is.

    Thanks
     
    Karl, Jan 4, 2009
    #1
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  2. Karl

    bw Guest

    "Karl" <> wrote in message
    news:gjr8ao$hpr$...
    >I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has
    >it ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever
    >got cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use
    >gas for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    >hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >
    > Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just
    > curious if this has been done or how feasible it is.
    >
    > Thanks


    Start with propane first and see how it works for you.
    Where are you going to purchase the hydrogen?
     
    bw, Jan 4, 2009
    #2
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  3. Karl

    Neon John Guest

    On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:05:23 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:

    >I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has it
    >ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    >cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use gas
    >for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    >hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >
    >Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just curious
    >if this has been done or how feasible it is.


    Of course it's been done. I've done it myself. OK, I was using a
    hydrogen/oxygen fire that I used to work quartz with but I did, in fact cook a
    pot of chili :) I ran the flame with almost no oxygen and still it was hard
    to keep from burning the food. Hydrogen is HOT.

    Hydrogen is a cantankerous fuel. It's combustion velocity and range of
    flammability is so high that it just LOVES to flash back into the burner
    itself. The gas velocity has to be very high to prevent that. If you look at
    the burner holes on an acetylene rosebud burner, you'll have a good idea of
    what a hydrogen burner would look like.

    In some imaginary world far far away where solar AND batteries became
    dirt-cheap, I'd be cooking on either an induction range or a quartz burner.
    Both closely approximate the gas experience of concentrated heat and
    instantaneous changes in heat as desired.

    Here in my cabin where propane costs a fortune, I'm all electric even though
    I'd love a gas cooktop. I have an induction range for frying and other high
    heat applications. I love it. I'm thinking about getting a commercial
    version that will work with both aluminum and cast iron/steel pots. My
    civilian-grade one will not work with aluminum.

    Only problem I've ever had was cracking two different fajita pans. Both split
    from the center to one rim, obviously from the magnetic forces involved in the
    huge circulating current in the cast iron. Sounded like a pistol shot. No
    problem from any other type of utensil.

    John
    --
    John De Armond
    See my website for my current email address
    http://www.neon-john.com
    http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
    If stupidity hurt then they'd be putting morphine in the water supply.
     
    Neon John, Jan 4, 2009
    #3
  4. Karl

    Frank Guest

    Karl wrote:
    > I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has it
    > ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    > cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use gas
    > for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    > hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >
    > Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just curious
    > if this has been done or how feasible it is.
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >

    I can think of 3 serious drawbacks.
    One is that you would not be able to store the hydrogen as high pressure
    is required. Unlike propane or butane, hydrogen does not liquify at
    room temperature no matter what the pressure.
    Two is cooking would be limited to sunny days.
    Third, the energetics are probably unfavorable as only a fraction of
    sunlight is converted to electricity.
    Better to have a solar cooker that just focuses the light to a point
    where you cook.
     
    Frank, Jan 4, 2009
    #4
  5. Karl

    Eeyore Guest

    Karl wrote:

    > I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?


    I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame scorching you.
    How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?


    > Has it ever been done?


    Not by anyone sane I would imagine.


    > Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    > cheap and it looks like it could happen


    And how did you come to that conclusion ?


    > I for one would prefer to use gas for cooking. So one should be able to use
    > solar electricity and make hyrdogen for a gas stove.


    KooK alert !

    Graham
     
    Eeyore, Jan 5, 2009
    #5
  6. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "bw" <> wrote in message
    news:gjrbtc$obe$...
    >
    > "Karl" <> wrote in message
    > news:gjr8ao$hpr$...
    >>I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has
    >>it ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever
    >>got cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use
    >>gas for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    >>hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >>
    >> Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just
    >> curious if this has been done or how feasible it is.
    >>
    >> Thanks

    >
    > Start with propane first and see how it works for you.
    > Where are you going to purchase the hydrogen?
    >


    No I was just curious. I saw a story on TV about a guy who produces all his
    own power and makes his own hydrogen, which I suppose would be from
    electrolysis of water.

    So more of an intellectual thing.
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #6
  7. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Neon John" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:05:23 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:
    >
    >>I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has
    >>it
    >>ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    >>cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use gas
    >>for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
    >>hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >>
    >>Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just
    >>curious
    >>if this has been done or how feasible it is.

    >
    > Of course it's been done. I've done it myself. OK, I was using a
    > hydrogen/oxygen fire that I used to work quartz with but I did, in fact
    > cook a
    > pot of chili :) I ran the flame with almost no oxygen and still it was
    > hard
    > to keep from burning the food. Hydrogen is HOT.
    >
    > Hydrogen is a cantankerous fuel. It's combustion velocity and range of
    > flammability is so high that it just LOVES to flash back into the burner
    > itself. The gas velocity has to be very high to prevent that. If you
    > look at
    > the burner holes on an acetylene rosebud burner, you'll have a good idea
    > of
    > what a hydrogen burner would look like.
    >
    > In some imaginary world far far away where solar AND batteries became
    > dirt-cheap, I'd be cooking on either an induction range or a quartz
    > burner.
    > Both closely approximate the gas experience of concentrated heat and
    > instantaneous changes in heat as desired.
    >
    > Here in my cabin where propane costs a fortune, I'm all electric even
    > though
    > I'd love a gas cooktop. I have an induction range for frying and other
    > high
    > heat applications. I love it. I'm thinking about getting a commercial
    > version that will work with both aluminum and cast iron/steel pots. My
    > civilian-grade one will not work with aluminum.
    >
    > Only problem I've ever had was cracking two different fajita pans. Both
    > split
    > from the center to one rim, obviously from the magnetic forces involved in
    > the
    > huge circulating current in the cast iron. Sounded like a pistol shot.
    > No
    > problem from any other type of utensil.
    >
    > John
    > --
    > John De Armond
    > See my website for my current email address
    > http://www.neon-john.com
    > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
    > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
    > If stupidity hurt then they'd be putting morphine in the water supply.
    >


    What's a 'quartz burner'? I know about induction burners. They are nice
    but EXPENSIVE! I was just thinking if in sometime in the future electricity
    is real cheap but we still liked gas could we use hydrogen in an adapted gas
    range of today.

    Propane has issues too. It's heavier than air so you could have a leak and
    the room could have loads of it at your feet and you would never know
    until....

    I just wanted to know what would need to done to gas ranges we see today in
    stores to make them or future version hydrogen gas capable.
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #7
  8. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Frank" <> wrote in message
    news:gjrhff$qga$...
    > Karl wrote:
    >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has
    >> it ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever
    >> got cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to
    >> use gas for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and
    >> make hyrdogen for a gas stove.
    >>
    >> Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just
    >> curious if this has been done or how feasible it is.
    >>
    >> Thanks

    > I can think of 3 serious drawbacks.
    > One is that you would not be able to store the hydrogen as high pressure
    > is required. Unlike propane or butane, hydrogen does not liquify at room
    > temperature no matter what the pressure.
    > Two is cooking would be limited to sunny days.
    > Third, the energetics are probably unfavorable as only a fraction of
    > sunlight is converted to electricity.
    > Better to have a solar cooker that just focuses the light to a point where
    > you cook.


    Your missing my point. What if say a utility made hydrogen and it was piped
    into your house like natural gas is now. I just wanted to know are natural
    gas stoves capable of burning hydrogen? I would imagine something would
    have to be adapted since methane is different from hydrogen.

    Cooking wouldn't have to be limited to sunny days either. You could have an
    enormous array but if you were connected to the grid too you could draw all
    the power you need to produce hydrogen when you need it.

    Now all this would be moot if you could trade kwh for natural gas. but that
    would make too much sense for the powers that be! :)
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #8
  9. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Eeyore" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Karl wrote:
    >
    >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?

    >
    > I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame scorching
    > you.
    > How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?
    >
    >
    >> Has it ever been done?

    >
    > Not by anyone sane I would imagine.
    >
    >
    >> Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    >> cheap and it looks like it could happen

    >
    > And how did you come to that conclusion ?
    >
    >
    >> I for one would prefer to use gas for cooking. So one should be able to
    >> use
    >> solar electricity and make hyrdogen for a gas stove.

    >
    > KooK alert !
    >
    > Graham
    >


    I wasn't interested in DOING this today or next year. I was asking a
    question. Tha'ts all. Feasibility was the issue.

    But your odd response of:

    "KooK alert !" ???

    Here's those 'KooK's in Australia proposing in 2006:
    http://www.aad.gov.au/default.asp?casid=22401
    "

    Hydrogen to power Australia's Antarctic field camps

    13 July 2006





    Expeditioners working in Australia's remote Antarctic field camps will soon
    be baking bread, heating their huts and powering their laptops with clean,
    green hydrogen.


    The Australian Government's hydrogen demonstration project, led by the
    Australian Antarctic Division (AAD), will operate out of Mawson station and
    a nearby penguin-monitoring field camp at Béchervaise Island, this summer.


    The project - the first of its kind in Antarctica - aims to investigate
    safety and operational aspects of using hydrogen, with a long-term view to
    running Australia's Antarctic field camps and stations without fossil
    fuels."
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #9
  10. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Eeyore" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Karl wrote:
    >
    >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?

    >
    > I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame scorching
    > you.
    > How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?
    >
    >
    >> Has it ever been done?

    >
    > Not by anyone sane I would imagine.
    >
    >
    >> Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    >> cheap and it looks like it could happen

    >
    > And how did you come to that conclusion ?
    >
    >
    >> I for one would prefer to use gas for cooking. So one should be able to
    >> use
    >> solar electricity and make hyrdogen for a gas stove.

    >
    > KooK alert !
    >
    > Graham
    >


    Here's something more from Home Power Magazine:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/alternative-energy/homepower-magazine/archives/32/32p42a.txt
    Hydrogen Basics
    Amanda Potter
    Mark Newell

    c. Mark Newell and Amanda Potter

    Home Power is gearing up to use hydrogen fuel for cooking. We've been
    hoping to eliminate or at least reduce our propane use for a long time now
    and have been encouraged by the interest and enthusiasm in hydrogen
    that we've seen in our readers.

    Hydrogen does not produce energy; rather, it is a non-toxic means of
    storing and transporting energy. Any energy source can be stored in the
    form of hydrogen. Solar, wind and hydro power can be used to break
    down the molecular bonds which bind hydrogen in hydrocarbons and
    water. Hydrogen, unlike electricity, is efficiently transported over long
    distances (through pipelines, for example). It enables energy produced in
    areas where renewable energy resources are abundant to be safely
    transported to areas with high energy use. Part of hydrogen's virtue as an
    energy storage medium is the fact that energy stored in the form of
    hydrogen can be converted into different forms of usable energy without
    producing pollutants; heat or electricity can be produced with water as the
    primary by-product.

    Catalytic Combustion
    Hydrogen can be recombined with oxygen to produce heat in the normal
    combustion process or it can be recombined in a fuel cell to produce
    electricity. In both cases the primary by-product is water. Burning
    hydrogen produces some nitrous oxides because of the high burning
    temperature. However, using a catalyst (such platinum or nickel) lowers
    the temperature and decreases the surface area of the reaction, which
    increases efficiency and reduces the nitrous oxides to a negligible
    amount. Pure catalytic combustion uses a catalyst to cause the hydrogen-
    oxygen recombination to occur without the input energy of a flame. There
    is a 100% efficient conversion of hydrogen to heat when temperatures are
    kept below 100 degrees Celsius or 212 degrees Fahrenheit.

    Converting a propane stove to run on hydrogen is a fairly simple process.
    Low tech, inexpensive catalysts such as stainless steel wool (3% - 22 %
    nickel) work well and are easy to use However, stainless steel wool is not
    as effective in eliminating nitrous oxides as more expensive catalysts. For
    more information on these operations see Fuel from Water by Michael
    Peavey. Also look in your local library under hydrogen.

    The Electrolyzer
    An electrolyzer is a device that uses electric current to lyse or split
    water
    (H2O) into hydrogen and oxygen. (See Electrolyzer sidebar.) Electrolysis
    is currently the cheapest, simplest, and most efficient method of home
    scale hydrogen generation. Well-made and relatively inexpensive
    electrolyzer cells from Hydrogen Wind in Iowa are available. Each
    electrolyzer cell requires 2 Volts; the current determines how much
    hydrogen they produce. (See HP #22 and 26.)

    How Much Hydrogen Would We Use?
    We plan to use electrolyzers to produce hydrogen, but how much
    hydrogen do we need? Ideally we would like to supply the gas needs for
    the eight of us that live here on Agate Flat. That, however, is no small
    feat!
    In order to determine how much hydrogen we need to produce and store,
    we calculated how much hydrogen we would use on a daily basis. Here's
    how much hydrogen we would need to run the cookstove, our only gas
    appliance:

    There are 82,000 British thermal units (BTU) per gallon of liquid propane.
    We go through our 5 gallon tank of propane approximately every twenty
    days. We therefore use:

    82,000 BTU/gal x 5 gal = 410,000 BTU every 20 days,
    or 410,000 BTU/20 days = 20,500 BTU every day.

    How much electricity do we need to run through electrolyzers to produce
    20,500 BTU of hydrogen? We have a number for converting BTU into
    kilowatt-hours (kW-hr) of electricity but it assumes 100% efficiency. With
    the kind of electrolyzers we are looking at, we expect the efficiency to be
    about 50%.
    1 BTU = 2.9287 x 10-4 kW-hr
    20,500 BTU x (2.9287 x 10-4kW-hr/BTU) / .50 eff. = 12.0 kW-hr

    This means we would need 12 kW-hr input to the electrolyzers each day
    to produce hydrogen for our daily cooking needs. This is a lot of
    electricity!
    There are a lot of us up here now, but we are going to need to find more
    efficient ways of our cooking and heating hot water if we hope to power
    our entire stove with hydrogen. We are planning on installing a solar hot
    water heater. We presently use our solar oven almost every sunny day
    and we are planning on building a larger one to further cut down on our
    propane use.


    A Realistic Approach
    We can begin by supplementing our propane use with hydrogen. The
    next question is how much hydrogen we can produce. Home Power will
    soon be adding two trackers to test. With our additional loads, this will
    add about 1.5 kw-hr surplus power per day. We use the following
    conversion factors to determine how many cubic feet of hydrogen (at
    atmospheric pressure) 1.5 kW-hr will produce and how much energy in
    BTU this amount of hydrogen will give us.

    1cu. ft. H2=0.791 kW-hr or 1 kW-hr=12.6cu. ft. H2
    1 cu. ft.=270 BTU
    Electrolyzer efficiency = 50%

    Using the above conversion factors,

    1.5kW-hr/day x 12.6 cu. ft./kW-hr x .5 eff.=9.45 cu. ft. H2/day.
    9.45 cu. ft. H2.x 270 BTU/cu. ft. H2=2551.5 BTU/day.

    We will be able to produce 9.45 cubic feet of hydrogen at atmospheric
    pressure (or 2550 BTU hydrogen) each day from our 1.5 kW-hr/day
    surplus energy. This will only run our cookstove burner (assuming 10,000
    BTU/hour) for a little more than 15 minutes.

    Storage
    Now that we have the hydrogen, how do we save it until we need it?
    Hydrogen storage can be complicated and costly. Hydrogen can be
    stored as a liquid, in a metal hydride or as a pressurized gas. Liquid
    hydrogen at -253øC requires costly and complex storage containers and
    the energy required to liquify hydrogen is 20-40% of the energy being
    stored. Certain metals like magnesium, titanium, and iron absorb
    hydrogen when cooled and release it when heated. In these metals,
    hydrogen remains a gas but is confined in the spaces between molecules
    in the metal. When the metal is "charged" with hydrogen, it is called a
    metal hydride. Metal hydrides are the safest way to store hydrogen,
    especially in transportation applications, but are also more costly and
    complex than pressurized gas. Pressurized storage of hydrogen is the
    most straight forward. The advantage of this method of storage is that
    larger quantities of the voluminous can be stored in smaller tanks, saving
    on space and tank cost.. However, compressing hydrogen to any sort of
    high pressure ( pressures greater than 100 pounds per square inch)
    would require an expensive gas compressor. We have chosen low
    pressure storage because we would like to keep our storage system as
    simple as possible.

    To determine the size of our storage container, we've converted cubic feet
    into gallons.

    gal H2 =9.45 cu. ft. H2 x 7.5 gal/cu. ft.= 70.88 gallons

    The Ideal Gas Law
    When we talk about storage, we also need to talk about the pressure. The
    above equation assumes we are storing the hydrogen at just above
    atmospheric pressure. Hydrogen, stored as a gas, follows the ideal gas
    law, PiVi=PfVf. The law states that the initial pressure times the initial
    volume of a gas is equal to the final pressure times the final volume of the
    gas.

    Pressure in the ideal gas law must include atmospheric pressure. When
    we inflate a tire to 35 pounds per square inch (psi), we are actually
    inflating it to 35 psi above atmospheric pressure. Atmospheric pressure is
    the pressure per square inch exerted on us by the atmosphere above us.
    It varies according to elevation and temperature but is about 14.5 psi.
    Anything less than that is a vacuum; anything more is pressurized. So, the
    tire we inflated would actually be at 35 + 14.5 psi or 49.5 psi. The tires
    walls only "feel" 35 psi because atmospheric pressure presses on it.

    We have 70 gallons of hydrogen at just above atmospheric pressure, at
    say 0.25 psi above atmospheric, or 14.75 psi. If we choose to store the
    hydrogen at 50 psi above atmospheric pressure or, 64.5 psi we can
    determine the resulting volume by applying the ideal gas law:

    P1V1=P2V2
    V2=P1V1/P2=14.75 psi x 70.88 gal H2/64.5 psi= 16.2 gal H2

    The 70 gallons of hydrogen we produce can be stored in a 16 gallon
    storage tank at 64.5 psi. The advantage of the higher pressure tank is the
    low volume storage tank. Hydrogen at 64.5 psi could be stored in a
    propane tank. Propane tanks, however, are expensive and a compressor
    might be necessary to increase the pressure of the hydrogen. Since
    hydrogen storage becomes more expensive and complicated as we
    increase the amount of hydrogen stored, we decided to start our system
    with only one day's worth of storage. Our options are to either store 16
    gallons of hydrogen in an empty 10-20 gallon propane tank at 64.5 psi or
    store the 70 gallons of hydrogen in two 55 gallon drums at slightly greater
    than atmospheric pressure (See HP#26).

    Hydrogen For Home Power Users
    Hydrogen offers many possibilities for home power users. Indefinite, long
    term storage becomes possible with hydrogen. Many home power
    systems produce more power than can be used during only one season.
    PV's produce surplus power in the summer; micro-hydro systems
    produce surplus power in the winter. Hydrogen allows for the storage of
    the surplus energy produced during one season to be used in another.
    Hydrogen can be combusted to produce heat for cooking or space
    heating with no pollutants; it gives home power producers the option of
    eliminating the last of their fossil fuels. Because hydrogen and propane
    are compatible, hydrogen can be mixed directly into an existing propane
    tank and can be used in a propane appliances year-round, without any
    modifications. (See HP#22).

    In the foreseeable future, we may see fuel cells become a cost effective
    method of producing electricity with stored hydrogen. Hydrogen could
    then be used as an alternative to batteries which require proper
    maintenance and employ toxic heavy metals which eventually need to be
    disposed of or recycled.

    This exercise has given us a good idea of the what it will take to replace
    all of our propane use with hydrogen. It's brought home the importance of
    conservation; our solar oven and solar hot water heater will determine if
    our transition will be possible. There is little information on "home scale,
    home budget" hydrogen systems. We welcome any advice or experience.


    Access: Mark Newell and Amanda Potter, c/o Home Power, POB 520,
    Ashland, OR 97520 ù 916-475-3179

    Fuel From Water by Michael A. Peavey, (ISBN 0-945516), Merit Products,
    Inc., Box 694, Louisville, KT 40201. Also available from Alternative Energy
    Engineering (see ad on page 5 of this issue).
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #10
  11. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Eeyore" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Karl wrote:
    >
    >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?

    >
    > I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame scorching
    > you.
    > How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?
    >
    >
    >> Has it ever been done?

    >
    > Not by anyone sane I would imagine.
    >
    >
    >> Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    >> cheap and it looks like it could happen

    >
    > And how did you come to that conclusion ?


    The cost for Solar power is going down. And new companies are innovating
    everyday pushing prices lower. Also we have a new administration which
    could also help push prices lower through expanded tax credits. personally
    i am hoping for innovators from the likes of nanosolar, first solar, and
    many other start ups who allege solar is going to get competitive with
    fossil fuels.

    That's how I cam to that conclusion.

    >
    >
    >> I for one would prefer to use gas for cooking. So one should be able to
    >> use
    >> solar electricity and make hyrdogen for a gas stove.

    >
    > KooK alert !
    >
    > Graham
    >
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #11
  12. Karl

    Scott Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:11:27 -0500, in alt.energy.homepower, Neon John
    <> wrote:

    >Only problem I've ever had was cracking two different fajita pans. Both split
    >from the center to one rim, obviously from the magnetic forces involved in the
    >huge circulating current in the cast iron. Sounded like a pistol shot. No
    >problem from any other type of utensil.


    Cast iron? Uneven heating can do that. If it were magnetism I'd expect to
    see it warping your thin steel pans...? I've never had the pleasure of
    cooking on an induction range.
     
    Scott, Jan 5, 2009
    #12
  13. Karl

    Neon John Guest

    On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:48:35 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:


    >What's a 'quartz burner'?


    IT's a flat top electric range with quartz-halogen lamps underneath each eye.
    On and off as fast as a light bulb. IOW, almost as responsive as gas. I say
    "almost" because the ceramic top over the lamps holds a little heat.

    >I know about induction burners. They are nice
    >but EXPENSIVE!


    yep, but the price is coming down. A commercial 2kw one is now under a grand.
    Significantly less than a grand. The ones I have are consumer grade ones that
    QVC sold for $100. I bought a bunch of 'em for practically nothing ($5 each,
    if I recall). They all had about the same problem

    http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/Induction_range.htm

    A quick shot with the soldering gun and they were up and running. This one is
    about a kW. Enough power to get a 12" cast iron skillet to frying temperature
    in under a minute.


    >I was just thinking if in sometime in the future electricity
    >is real cheap but we still liked gas could we use hydrogen in an adapted gas
    >range of today.


    It would require pretty much a whole new burner head for each eye. Higher
    pressure gas will be required so the orifice will be much smaller. The burner
    holes will have to be pin-hole sized or maybe sintered brass or sintered
    stainless. It'll have to be very heat resistant because when the flame is
    turned down, it attaches itself to the burner and transmits a LOT of heat to
    the metal. The burner will also have to be strong. Hydrogen is so energetic
    that a flashback would probably burst the stamped sheet metal now used for
    most burners.

    Then there is the issue of the transparent flame. In the absence of any
    impurities in the air, a hydrogen flame is transparent and essentially
    non-luminous. Unless you're in a totally dark room, you won't be able to tell
    if it is burning.

    that's an occupational hazard when working with oxy-hydrogen lampworking
    burners. When the hand torch is hung back on the economizer, all the oxygen
    is turned off and the hydrogen is turned way down. A totally transparent
    flame burns off the end of the torch. It's real easy to forget and let your
    shirt sleeve or something hang over it.

    there are ways to color the flame but they all involve consumables. A little
    table salt dust induced with the air would turn it bright yellow, for example.
    I don't know how the safety nazis would deal with that, as when the coloring
    agent is depleted, the flame returns to transparent.

    >
    >Propane has issues too. It's heavier than air so you could have a leak and
    >the room could have loads of it at your feet and you would never know
    >until....


    That's really not an issue unless your house is absolutely air-tight and there
    is no air movement. I've cooked on propane for years and the most I've ever
    done from leaving an un-lit burner on (much more serious than a leak, gas
    volume-wise) was "whoof" the area under the eyes. Startling but not terribly
    dangerous.

    It wouldn't be difficult to synthesize hydrocarbon gases with that same
    energy. Before natural gas was widely available, many cities provided 'water
    gas' to its citizens. It's a mix of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, made by
    passing steam over hot coke or charcoal. Water gas, sometimes known as "city
    gas", is where the notion of committing suicide by sticking your head in an
    oven came from. Natural gas in the amount that comes out of the burner can't
    suffocate you but just a little CO would.

    Of course, with modern CO detectors, accidental poisoning wouldn't be much of
    an issue. Besides, stove-top burners produce significant CO. I can use the
    cook stove in my RV for about 15 minutes before my CO alarm starts indicating.
    This, even though it has a nice proper blue flame. My propane range in my
    last house was similar, only difference being that it took longer to build up
    to the point where it registered on the CO detector. In both cases, my vent
    hoods would take care of the problem - when I remember to turn them on.

    I wonder if mild CO poisoning might be the reason so many housewives had so
    many headaches? :)

    John
    --
    John De Armond
    See my website for my current email address
    http://www.neon-john.com
    http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -Darwin
     
    Neon John, Jan 5, 2009
    #13
  14. Karl

    Neon John Guest

    On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:16:56 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:


    Karl, the first thing you need to do to enjoy this group is to kill file
    eyeore. He's our token asshole. Frankly, I'd forgotten about him until you
    quoted his stuff.

    >Here's something more from Home Power Magazine:
    >http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/alternative-energy/homepower-magazine/archives/32/32p42a.txt
    >Hydrogen Basics
    >Amanda Potter
    >Mark Newell
    >
    >c. Mark Newell and Amanda Potter
    >
    >Home Power is gearing up to use hydrogen fuel for cooking. We've been
    >hoping to eliminate or at least reduce our propane use for a long time now
    >and have been encouraged by the interest and enthusiasm in hydrogen
    >that we've seen in our readers.
    >
    >Hydrogen does not produce energy; rather, it is a non-toxic means of
    >storing and transporting energy. Any energy source can be stored in the
    >form of hydrogen. Solar, wind and hydro power can be used to break
    >down the molecular bonds which bind hydrogen in hydrocarbons and
    >water. Hydrogen, unlike electricity, is efficiently transported over long
    >distances (through pipelines, for example). It enables energy produced in
    >areas where renewable energy resources are abundant to be safely
    >transported to areas with high energy use. Part of hydrogen's virtue as an
    >energy storage medium is the fact that energy stored in the form of
    >hydrogen can be converted into different forms of usable energy without
    >producing pollutants; heat or electricity can be produced with water as the
    >primary by-product.


    this is the classic example of the arrogance of ignorance or IOW, not knowing
    enough to know what you don't know. HP magazine is like that. A lot.

    Hydrogen is NOT easily transported. Pumping losses are a little less than
    with methane but significantly higher than electrical transmission. That's
    ignoring the dismal efficiency of electrolysis. Hydrogen diffuses into steel
    causing something called hydrogen embrittlement. It makes steel become as
    brittle as glass. There are alloys resistant to the effect but they don't
    include the low carbon steel used in natural gas pipelines. Hydrogen
    embrittlement is a problem with pipeline steel in the trace concentrations
    found in natural gas.

    Electrolysis, depending on the configuration and materials used, is somewhere
    around 20% efficient. A rule of thumb for today's grid is about 10% loss,
    generator to outlet. It used to be less but the successful eco-nazi against
    new transmission lines has resulted in existing ones being overloaded with
    correspondingly higher losses.

    I could go on and on about that article but that gives you an idea of just how
    far off-base they are.

    John
    --
    John De Armond
    See my website for my current email address
    http://www.neon-john.com
    http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
    Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy?
     
    Neon John, Jan 5, 2009
    #14
  15. Karl

    Bob F Guest

    "Neon John" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > there are ways to color the flame but they all involve consumables. A little
    > table salt dust induced with the air would turn it bright yellow, for example.
    > I don't know how the safety nazis would deal with that, as when the coloring
    > agent is depleted, the flame returns to transparent.


    A thermocouple and a warning light?
     
    Bob F, Jan 5, 2009
    #15
  16. Karl

    Eeyore Guest

    Karl wrote:

    > "Eeyore" <> wrote
    > > Karl wrote:
    > >
    > >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?

    > >
    > > I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame scorching
    > > you. How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?
    > >
    > >> Has it ever been done?

    > >
    > > Not by anyone sane I would imagine.
    > >
    > >> Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    > >> cheap and it looks like it could happen

    > >
    > > And how did you come to that conclusion ?

    >
    > The cost for Solar power is going down.


    From the insanely high existing prices.


    > And new companies are innovating
    > everyday pushing prices lower.


    How many are ? How much are they producing ? Cite please.


    > Also we have a new administration which
    > could also help push prices lower through expanded tax credits.


    NO. That's just taking money out of OTHER peoples' pockets. Stealing would be
    another word for it. The real price is the same.


    > personally i am hoping for innovators from the likes of nanosolar, first
    > solar, and
    > many other start ups who allege solar is going to get competitive with
    > fossil fuels.


    They can allege the moon is made of green cheese for all I would trust them.

    Ever heard of investment scams ? Nanosolar refuse to release their actual
    figures. Would YOU trust them ?

    Graham
     
    Eeyore, Jan 5, 2009
    #16
  17. Karl

    Bob F Guest

    "Neon John" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:16:56 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Karl, the first thing you need to do to enjoy this group is to kill file
    > eyeore. He's our token asshole. Frankly, I'd forgotten about him until you
    > quoted his stuff.


    It's funny, but in another group, he actually makes useful, reasonable and
    courteous suggestions.
     
    Bob F, Jan 5, 2009
    #17
  18. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Neon John" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:48:35 -0500, "Karl" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>What's a 'quartz burner'?

    >
    > IT's a flat top electric range with quartz-halogen lamps underneath each
    > eye.
    > On and off as fast as a light bulb. IOW, almost as responsive as gas. I
    > say
    > "almost" because the ceramic top over the lamps holds a little heat.
    >
    >>I know about induction burners. They are nice
    >>but EXPENSIVE!

    >
    > yep, but the price is coming down. A commercial 2kw one is now under a
    > grand.
    > Significantly less than a grand. The ones I have are consumer grade ones
    > that
    > QVC sold for $100. I bought a bunch of 'em for practically nothing ($5
    > each,
    > if I recall). They all had about the same problem
    >
    > http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/Induction_range.htm
    >
    > A quick shot with the soldering gun and they were up and running. This
    > one is
    > about a kW. Enough power to get a 12" cast iron skillet to frying
    > temperature
    > in under a minute.
    >
    >
    >>I was just thinking if in sometime in the future electricity
    >>is real cheap but we still liked gas could we use hydrogen in an adapted
    >>gas
    >>range of today.

    >
    > It would require pretty much a whole new burner head for each eye. Higher
    > pressure gas will be required so the orifice will be much smaller. The
    > burner
    > holes will have to be pin-hole sized or maybe sintered brass or sintered
    > stainless. It'll have to be very heat resistant because when the flame is
    > turned down, it attaches itself to the burner and transmits a LOT of heat
    > to
    > the metal. The burner will also have to be strong. Hydrogen is so
    > energetic
    > that a flashback would probably burst the stamped sheet metal now used for
    > most burners.
    >
    > Then there is the issue of the transparent flame. In the absence of any
    > impurities in the air, a hydrogen flame is transparent and essentially
    > non-luminous. Unless you're in a totally dark room, you won't be able to
    > tell
    > if it is burning.
    >
    > that's an occupational hazard when working with oxy-hydrogen lampworking
    > burners. When the hand torch is hung back on the economizer, all the
    > oxygen
    > is turned off and the hydrogen is turned way down. A totally transparent
    > flame burns off the end of the torch. It's real easy to forget and let
    > your
    > shirt sleeve or something hang over it.
    >
    > there are ways to color the flame but they all involve consumables. A
    > little
    > table salt dust induced with the air would turn it bright yellow, for
    > example.
    > I don't know how the safety nazis would deal with that, as when the
    > coloring
    > agent is depleted, the flame returns to transparent.
    >
    >>
    >>Propane has issues too. It's heavier than air so you could have a leak
    >>and
    >>the room could have loads of it at your feet and you would never know
    >>until....

    >
    > That's really not an issue unless your house is absolutely air-tight and
    > there
    > is no air movement. I've cooked on propane for years and the most I've
    > ever
    > done from leaving an un-lit burner on (much more serious than a leak, gas
    > volume-wise) was "whoof" the area under the eyes. Startling but not
    > terribly
    > dangerous.
    >
    > It wouldn't be difficult to synthesize hydrocarbon gases with that same
    > energy. Before natural gas was widely available, many cities provided
    > 'water
    > gas' to its citizens. It's a mix of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, made by
    > passing steam over hot coke or charcoal. Water gas, sometimes known as
    > "city
    > gas", is where the notion of committing suicide by sticking your head in
    > an
    > oven came from. Natural gas in the amount that comes out of the burner
    > can't
    > suffocate you but just a little CO would.
    >
    > Of course, with modern CO detectors, accidental poisoning wouldn't be much
    > of
    > an issue. Besides, stove-top burners produce significant CO. I can use
    > the
    > cook stove in my RV for about 15 minutes before my CO alarm starts
    > indicating.
    > This, even though it has a nice proper blue flame. My propane range in my
    > last house was similar, only difference being that it took longer to build
    > up
    > to the point where it registered on the CO detector. In both cases, my
    > vent
    > hoods would take care of the problem - when I remember to turn them on.
    >
    > I wonder if mild CO poisoning might be the reason so many housewives had
    > so
    > many headaches? :)


    Thanks, good post there. I like that induction type. I saw one that was
    thousands of dollars. Granted that was a commericial one.

    Oh they are making methane now too. I saw one article that referenced San
    Antonio using some system to digest sewage into methane. And Waste
    Management always has those ads on TV about capturing methane from
    landfills, which I had heard was of a higher quality. We do have a lot of
    methane in this country though.

    I guess hydrogen may appear but maybe not. I have to watch out for dropping
    prices for induction ranges. I just hate those old electric coils burners.
    They just don't last long, at least the new ones don't.

    >
    > John
    > --
    > John De Armond
    > See my website for my current email address
    > http://www.neon-john.com
    > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
    > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
    > Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -Darwin
    >
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #18
  19. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Bob F" <> wrote in message
    news:gjsag6$jhp$...
    >
    > "Neon John" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> there are ways to color the flame but they all involve consumables. A
    >> little
    >> table salt dust induced with the air would turn it bright yellow, for
    >> example.
    >> I don't know how the safety nazis would deal with that, as when the
    >> coloring
    >> agent is depleted, the flame returns to transparent.

    >
    > A thermocouple and a warning light?
    >

    That would solve that problem!
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #19
  20. Karl

    Karl Guest

    "Michael B" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Jan 4, 8:12 pm, "Karl" <> wrote:
    > "Eeyore" <> wrote in message


    > > Karl wrote:

    >
    > >> I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove?

    >
    > > I'm sure it could but better be aware of the near invible flame
    > > scorching
    > > you.
    > > How would you judge the heat if you can't see the flame ?

    >
    > >> Has it ever been done?

    >
    > > Not by anyone sane I would imagine.

    >
    > >> Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
    > >> cheap and it looks like it could happen

    >
    > > And how did you come to that conclusion ?

    >
    > >> I for one would prefer to use gas for cooking. So one should be able to
    > >> use
    > >> solar electricity and make hyrdogen for a gas stove.

    >
    > > KooK alert !

    >
    > > Graham

    >
    > I wasn't interested in DOING this today or next year. I was asking a
    > question. Tha'ts all. Feasibility was the issue.
    >
    > But your odd response of:
    >
    > "KooK alert !" ???


    Pay no attention to individuals with limited experience and similarly
    limited imagination. You were asking a valid question when an
    identified kook presented himself to our attention. He speaks for
    himself only.

    Yeah I was just curious about the technology. Actually I had read an old
    issue of Popular Science or Popular Mechanics and they got into the
    "hydrogen" economy and I was just thinking cooking was a good app and
    wondered if it was doable.
     
    Karl, Jan 5, 2009
    #20
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