How does 50hz motor differ from 60hz motor?

Discussion in 'Misc Electronics' started by Sanjay, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. Sanjay

    Sanjay Guest

    Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.

    thank you,
    sanjay
     
    Sanjay, Dec 24, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    >
    > thank you,
    > sanjay


    Sanjay,

    A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped with coal
    brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.

    Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number of
    revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by controling the
    frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the power of
    the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you lower
    the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So you have
    to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on 220V/60Hz
    the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The motor
    will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the other
    way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do not
    want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at construction
    time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils. The
    more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.

    So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    220V/50Hz counterpart.

    petrus


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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 24, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Sanjay

    Myron Samila Guest

    >They use three phases and their number of
    >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    >frequency.


    What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are single phase induction
    motors out there.

    If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region, you can use a
    frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase 120V, 1phase 220V, or
    3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial motors, US uses 480V I
    believe)


    --
    Myron Samila
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Samila Racing
    http://204.101.251.229/myronx19


    "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    news:hOgGb.317432$...
    >
    > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:...
    > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > >
    > > thank you,
    > > sanjay

    >
    > Sanjay,
    >
    > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped with coal
    > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.
    >
    > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number of
    > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by controling the
    > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the power of
    > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you lower
    > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So you have
    > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on 220V/60Hz
    > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The motor
    > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the other
    > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do not
    > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at construction
    > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils. The
    > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    >
    > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    >
    > petrus
    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    >
     
    Myron Samila, Dec 24, 2003
    #3
  4. "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    news:2fjGb.10216$d%...
    > >They use three phases and their number of
    > >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > >frequency.

    >
    > What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are single

    phase induction
    > motors out there.
    >
    > If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region, you

    can use a
    > frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase 120V,

    1phase 220V, or
    > 3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial motors,

    US uses 480V I
    > believe)
    >
    >


    The majority of induction motors use three phases, although you would not
    find many of them in common households. Most of the one phase motors use
    large capacitors to simulate the three phases. I found most of them in
    washing machines. I consider them three phase motors. There are some other
    possibilities using extra coils (inside the motor) and/or capacitors.
    Sometimes they are used only to start the motor and are switched off when
    the motor runs. I did not want to go too deep into this details to explain
    the difference between a 50Hz and 60Hz motor.

    Lately someone in another (not an english) newsgroup bought a piece of 50Hz
    equipment in Europe and sent it to America. It did not function too well so
    he needed a converter. Which was more expensive then the equipment....

    Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days it
    has been raised to 230V. It is said that it eventualy will become 240V. The
    voltage between two phases raised accordingly.

    petrus


    > --
    > Myron Samila
    > Toronto, ON Canada
    > Samila Racing
    > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    >
    >
    > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > news:hOgGb.317432$...
    > >
    > > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > > news:...
    > > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > > >
    > > > thank you,
    > > > sanjay

    > >
    > > Sanjay,
    > >
    > > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped with

    coal
    > > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.
    > >
    > > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number of
    > > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by controling

    the
    > > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the

    power of
    > > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you

    lower
    > > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So you

    have
    > > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on

    220V/60Hz
    > > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The

    motor
    > > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the

    other
    > > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do not
    > > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at

    construction
    > > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils. The
    > > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    > >
    > > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    > >
    > > petrus
    > >
    > >
    > > ---
    > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    > >

    >
    >



    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 25, 2003
    #4
  5. Sanjay

    Thinker Guest

    "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    news:8WqGb.323172$...
    >
    > "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:2fjGb.10216$d%...
    > > >They use three phases and their number of
    > > >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > >frequency.

    > >
    > > What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are

    single
    > phase induction
    > > motors out there.
    > >
    > > If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region, you

    > can use a
    > > frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase

    120V,
    > 1phase 220V, or
    > > 3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial

    motors,
    > US uses 480V I
    > > believe)
    > >
    > >

    >
    > The majority of induction motors use three phases, although you would not
    > find many of them in common households. Most of the one phase motors use
    > large capacitors to simulate the three phases. I found most of them in
    > washing machines. I consider them three phase motors.



    Only a person with absolutely no electrical knowledge would call motors
    such
    as you are referring to as 3 phase motors. You obviously have no idea of the
    purpose of the capacitor in these motors! Search for "split-phase motor"
    and after
    you do a bit of research come back and explain why you think all induction
    motors
    are 3 phase. I have many single phase induction motors in my house. 2 in
    the furnace,
    water pump,refrigerator, deep freeze,washing machine, dryer,several ceiling
    fans. All
    of them are induction motors and NONE of them can be remotely called a three
    phase
    motor. The ONLY 3 phase motors in a home in North America are the drive
    motors
    in you computer disks!









    There are some other
    > possibilities using extra coils (inside the motor) and/or capacitors.
    > Sometimes they are used only to start the motor and are switched off when
    > the motor runs. I did not want to go too deep into this details to explain
    > the difference between a 50Hz and 60Hz motor.
    >
    > Lately someone in another (not an english) newsgroup bought a piece of

    50Hz
    > equipment in Europe and sent it to America. It did not function too well

    so
    > he needed a converter. Which was more expensive then the equipment....
    >
    > Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days it
    > has been raised to 230V. It is said that it eventualy will become 240V.

    The
    > voltage between two phases raised accordingly.
    >
    > petrus
    >
    >
    > > --
    > > Myron Samila
    > > Toronto, ON Canada
    > > Samila Racing
    > > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    > >
    > >
    > > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > > news:hOgGb.317432$...
    > > >
    > > > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > > > news:...
    > > > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > > > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > > > >
    > > > > thank you,
    > > > > sanjay
    > > >
    > > > Sanjay,
    > > >
    > > > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped

    with
    > coal
    > > > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.
    > > >
    > > > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number

    of
    > > > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by

    controling
    > the
    > > > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the

    > power of
    > > > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you

    > lower
    > > > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So

    you
    > have
    > > > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on

    > 220V/60Hz
    > > > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The

    > motor
    > > > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the

    > other
    > > > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do

    not
    > > > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at

    > construction
    > > > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils.

    The
    > > > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    > > >
    > > > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > > > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    > > >
    > > > petrus
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ---
    > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 21-12-2003
    >
     
    Thinker, Dec 25, 2003
    #5
  6. "Yuuper" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    > So how about my electric wall clock? I believe it has a single phase 60

    Hz
    > synchronous induction motor. It has no capacitors. It will certainly run
    > slower and be totally useless if used with 50 Hz power.


    As you said your wall clock has a synchronous motor. I was speaking -
    although not explicitly I have to admit - about asynchronous brushless
    (induction) motors. Remember, I tried to explain the difference between 50Hz
    and 60Hz motors.

    petrus



    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 25, 2003
    #6
  7. >
    > Only a person with absolutely no electrical knowledge would call motors
    > such
    > as you are referring to as 3 phase motors. You obviously have no idea of

    the
    > purpose of the capacitor in these motors! Search for "split-phase motor"
    > and after
    > you do a bit of research come back and explain why you think all induction
    > motors
    > are 3 phase. I have many single phase induction motors in my house. 2 in
    > the furnace,
    > water pump,refrigerator, deep freeze,washing machine, dryer,several

    ceiling
    > fans. All
    > of them are induction motors and NONE of them can be remotely called a

    three
    > phase
    > motor. The ONLY 3 phase motors in a home in North America are the drive
    > motors
    > in you computer disks!
    >
    >


    1. You know very little about my knowledge.
    2. I wrote the majority of induction motors to be 3 phase which may be wrong
    because
    3. You have much more motors in your house then I have.
    4. I don't live in North America.
    5. I don't feel like to have a fruitless discussion about this.
    6. As you know so much about electricity, explain the difference between a
    50Hz and a 60Hz motor to the OP. (Not to me.)

    petrus


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 25, 2003
    #7
  8. Sanjay

    Myron Samila Guest

    Misinformation.....

    The voltage isn't raised between both phases accordingly.

    In all of Europe, 220V is on the HOT side, 0V is on the Neutral side.

    We make (In Canada) 220V or 208V by using SINGLE phase 220V (using 2 HOTS), the degrees
    they are apart makes a potential of 220V, in three phase, you get 208V, the phases are 120
    degrees apart.

    Capacitors are used in starting motors. They do not really simulate 3 phases.

    3 Phase motors use POWER FACTOR capacitors as well to aid starting, otherwise, a 20hp
    screwdrive air compressor would draw massive amounts of current during start up.

    I have a table saw, it uses a SINGLE phase induction motor.

    --
    Myron Samila
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Samila Racing
    http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    news:8WqGb.323172$...
    >
    > "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:2fjGb.10216$d%...
    > > >They use three phases and their number of
    > > >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > >frequency.

    > >
    > > What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are single

    > phase induction
    > > motors out there.
    > >
    > > If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region, you

    > can use a
    > > frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase 120V,

    > 1phase 220V, or
    > > 3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial motors,

    > US uses 480V I
    > > believe)
    > >
    > >

    >
    > The majority of induction motors use three phases, although you would not
    > find many of them in common households. Most of the one phase motors use
    > large capacitors to simulate the three phases. I found most of them in
    > washing machines. I consider them three phase motors. There are some other
    > possibilities using extra coils (inside the motor) and/or capacitors.
    > Sometimes they are used only to start the motor and are switched off when
    > the motor runs. I did not want to go too deep into this details to explain
    > the difference between a 50Hz and 60Hz motor.
    >
    > Lately someone in another (not an english) newsgroup bought a piece of 50Hz
    > equipment in Europe and sent it to America. It did not function too well so
    > he needed a converter. Which was more expensive then the equipment....
    >
    > Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days it
    > has been raised to 230V. It is said that it eventualy will become 240V. The
    > voltage between two phases raised accordingly.
    >
    > petrus
    >
    >
    > > --
    > > Myron Samila
    > > Toronto, ON Canada
    > > Samila Racing
    > > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    > >
    > >
    > > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > > news:hOgGb.317432$...
    > > >
    > > > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > > > news:...
    > > > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > > > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > > > >
    > > > > thank you,
    > > > > sanjay
    > > >
    > > > Sanjay,
    > > >
    > > > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped with

    > coal
    > > > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.
    > > >
    > > > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number of
    > > > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by controling

    > the
    > > > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the

    > power of
    > > > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you

    > lower
    > > > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So you

    > have
    > > > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on

    > 220V/60Hz
    > > > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The

    > motor
    > > > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the

    > other
    > > > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do not
    > > > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at

    > construction
    > > > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils. The
    > > > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    > > >
    > > > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > > > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    > > >
    > > > petrus
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ---
    > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 21-12-2003
    >
     
    Myron Samila, Dec 25, 2003
    #8
  9. Sanjay

    Myron Samila Guest

    Also wanted to mention,

    What do you mean that they use large capacitors?

    Large in uF capacity? or in size.

    Most are of large size, and oil filled, 2uF and appropriate voltage for the application
    (for single phase motors). Power factor caps, aid in starting, nothing more (they do not
    simulate 3phases)

    It is also easier to start a 3 phase motor, you can also control direction by reversing a
    phase.

    I have worked on massive beam saws that cut up to 8 sheets stacked of wood per pass (CNC
    X/Y), (Holz Her, Homag, Holzma), wild stuff. Massive motors, induction. They use current
    sensors (PLC) to measure how dull the blade is.

    --
    Myron Samila
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Samila Racing
    http://204.101.251.229/myronx19


    "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    news:8WqGb.323172$...
    >
    > "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:2fjGb.10216$d%...
    > > >They use three phases and their number of
    > > >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > >frequency.

    > >
    > > What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are single

    > phase induction
    > > motors out there.
    > >
    > > If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region, you

    > can use a
    > > frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase 120V,

    > 1phase 220V, or
    > > 3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial motors,

    > US uses 480V I
    > > believe)
    > >
    > >

    >
    > The majority of induction motors use three phases, although you would not
    > find many of them in common households. Most of the one phase motors use
    > large capacitors to simulate the three phases. I found most of them in
    > washing machines. I consider them three phase motors. There are some other
    > possibilities using extra coils (inside the motor) and/or capacitors.
    > Sometimes they are used only to start the motor and are switched off when
    > the motor runs. I did not want to go too deep into this details to explain
    > the difference between a 50Hz and 60Hz motor.
    >
    > Lately someone in another (not an english) newsgroup bought a piece of 50Hz
    > equipment in Europe and sent it to America. It did not function too well so
    > he needed a converter. Which was more expensive then the equipment....
    >
    > Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days it
    > has been raised to 230V. It is said that it eventualy will become 240V. The
    > voltage between two phases raised accordingly.
    >
    > petrus
    >
    >
    > > --
    > > Myron Samila
    > > Toronto, ON Canada
    > > Samila Racing
    > > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    > >
    > >
    > > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > > news:hOgGb.317432$...
    > > >
    > > > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > > > news:...
    > > > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ compared
    > > > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > > > >
    > > > > thank you,
    > > > > sanjay
    > > >
    > > > Sanjay,
    > > >
    > > > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped with

    > coal
    > > > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the time.
    > > >
    > > > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their number of
    > > > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by controling

    > the
    > > > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the

    > power of
    > > > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If you

    > lower
    > > > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So you

    > have
    > > > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on

    > 220V/60Hz
    > > > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The

    > motor
    > > > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the

    > other
    > > > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do not
    > > > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at

    > construction
    > > > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils. The
    > > > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    > > >
    > > > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > > > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    > > >
    > > > petrus
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ---
    > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
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    Myron Samila, Dec 25, 2003
    #9
  10. Re: Misinformation.....

    "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    news:xAIGb.13614$d%...
    > The voltage isn't raised between both phases accordingly.
    >

    No? It was about 380V and now its nearly 400V.

    > In all of Europe, 220V is on the HOT side, 0V is on the Neutral side.
    >

    It's raised to 230V by now.

    > We make (In Canada) 220V or 208V by using SINGLE phase 220V (using 2

    HOTS), the degrees
    > they are apart makes a potential of 220V, in three phase, you get 208V,

    the phases are 120
    > degrees apart.
    >

    So you use two of the three phases. Each will have about 127V with respect
    to neutral. You will find a single phase 220V with respect to each other of
    course.

    > Capacitors are used in starting motors. They do not really simulate 3

    phases.
    >

    Will be true most of the time. A single phase does produce a rotating field
    the way a three phase system does. So at least during startup you have to
    provide an extra "phase" which can be switched off by a centrifugal switch
    when the motor runs. But I often saw "real" three fase motors used with a
    capacitor and I ever used one myself as well.

    > 3 Phase motors use POWER FACTOR capacitors as well to aid starting,

    otherwise, a 20hp
    > screwdrive air compressor would draw massive amounts of current during

    start up.
    >

    Sure.


    > I have a table saw, it uses a SINGLE phase induction motor.
    >

    The motor of my circular saw has coal brushes.

    petrus


    > --
    > Myron Samila
    > Toronto, ON Canada
    > Samila Racing
    > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > news:8WqGb.323172$...
    > >
    > > "Myron Samila" <> schreef in bericht
    > > news:2fjGb.10216$d%...
    > > > >They use three phases and their number of
    > > > >revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on the
    > > > >frequency.
    > > >
    > > > What do you mean all induction motors use three phases? There are

    single
    > > phase induction
    > > > motors out there.
    > > >
    > > > If there is ever a problem with using a 50hz motor in a 60hz region,

    you
    > > can use a
    > > > frequency converter - either of solid state or motor driven. 1phase

    120V,
    > > 1phase 220V, or
    > > > 3 phase 208V or higher (we use 600V in Canada for most industrial

    motors,
    > > US uses 480V I
    > > > believe)
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > The majority of induction motors use three phases, although you would

    not
    > > find many of them in common households. Most of the one phase motors use
    > > large capacitors to simulate the three phases. I found most of them in
    > > washing machines. I consider them three phase motors. There are some

    other
    > > possibilities using extra coils (inside the motor) and/or capacitors.
    > > Sometimes they are used only to start the motor and are switched off

    when
    > > the motor runs. I did not want to go too deep into this details to

    explain
    > > the difference between a 50Hz and 60Hz motor.
    > >
    > > Lately someone in another (not an english) newsgroup bought a piece of

    50Hz
    > > equipment in Europe and sent it to America. It did not function too well

    so
    > > he needed a converter. Which was more expensive then the equipment....
    > >
    > > Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days

    it
    > > has been raised to 230V. It is said that it eventualy will become 240V.

    The
    > > voltage between two phases raised accordingly.
    > >
    > > petrus
    > >
    > >
    > > > --
    > > > Myron Samila
    > > > Toronto, ON Canada
    > > > Samila Racing
    > > > http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:hOgGb.317432$...
    > > > >
    > > > > "Sanjay" <> schreef in bericht
    > > > > news:...
    > > > > > Can anyone please explin to me how will a 50hz motor differ

    compared
    > > > > > to 60hz motor on the way it operates and on the construction.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > thank you,
    > > > > > sanjay
    > > > >
    > > > > Sanjay,
    > > > >
    > > > > A huge amount of small motors - generaly speaking the ones equiped

    with
    > > coal
    > > > > brushes - don't care. You see them rated for 50-60Hz most of the

    time.
    > > > >
    > > > > Inductionmotors are different. They use three phases and their

    number of
    > > > > revolutions depends on the number of coils in their stator and on

    the
    > > > > frequency. You can even control the number of revolutions by

    controling
    > > the
    > > > > frequency. But there's a drawback. When you rise the frequency, the

    > > power of
    > > > > the motor is reduced. So you have to rise the voltage as well. If

    you
    > > lower
    > > > > the frequency the coils get saturated and the motor becomes hot. So

    you
    > > have
    > > > > to lower the voltage as well. So if you run a 220V/50Hz motor on

    > > 220V/60Hz
    > > > > the number of rotations is too high and the voltage is too low. The

    > > motor
    > > > > will run faster but cannot deliver the full power. If you do it the

    > > other
    > > > > way around, the motor will be too slow and become too hot. As you do

    not
    > > > > want to change the mains voltage you have to adjust for it at

    > > construction
    > > > > time. This can be done by changing the number of turns of the coils.

    The
    > > > > more turns, the higher the voltage it can handle.
    > > > >
    > > > > So a 220V/60Hz motor has less coils and less turns per coil then its
    > > > > 220V/50Hz counterpart.
    > > > >
    > > > > petrus
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > ---
    > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > > ---
    > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 21-12-2003
    > >

    >
    >



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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 26, 2003
    #10
  11. Sanjay

    Mjolinor Guest

    Re: Misinformation.....

    > It's raised to 230V by now.

    Unless you live in the UK in which case it was lowered to 230, it was 240.
    In reality they didn't change anything they just adjusted the tolerances to
    bring it in line with mainland Europe.
     
    Mjolinor, Dec 26, 2003
    #11
  12. Sanjay

    Mjolinor Guest

    Re: Misinformation.....

    "Michael A. Terrell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > petrus bitbyter wrote:
    > >
    > > So you use two of the three phases. Each will have about 127V with

    respect
    > > to neutral. You will find a single phase 220V with respect to each other

    of
    > > course.
    > >
    > >
    > > petrus

    >
    > No, Petrus. A typical North American home uses 240 VAC center tapped
    > single phase with the center tap grounded. Low power circuits are 120
    > VAC, while larger items are on dedicated 240 VAC circuits. If three
    > phase passes your house, it is to allow the utility company to select a
    > single phase for load balancing.
    >
    > When I was a kid I grew up in a subdivision of identical houses. The
    > main road had three phase, with a single pair of wires going down each
    > street, and a power transformer for every four houses.
    >
    > These days, you may find only one or two homes per transformer to
    > keep distribution problems from affecting as many homes. If a branch
    > breaks a wire and shorts a single transformer, it only affects a couple
    > homes. If a transformer goes bad a smaller crew can replace it, and if
    > a new home is built, it is easier to supply the extra electricity.
    >


    This is how it is done in the US (specifically Florida FPL, I love working
    there :)), each green triangle is an MV/LV transformer and will supply about
    10 houses. The blue supply from the primary sub is three phase MV and the
    black lines joining the green triangles are MV single phase.

    http://www.dknpowerline.com/Pictures/us1.gif
     
    Mjolinor, Dec 26, 2003
    #12
  13. Re: Misinformation.....

    "Michael A. Terrell" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    >
    > No, Petrus. A typical North American home uses 240 VAC center tapped
    > single phase with the center tap grounded. Low power circuits are 120
    > VAC, while larger items are on dedicated 240 VAC circuits. If three
    > phase passes your house, it is to allow the utility company to select a
    > single phase for load balancing.
    >
    > When I was a kid I grew up in a subdivision of identical houses. The
    > main road had three phase, with a single pair of wires going down each
    > street, and a power transformer for every four houses.
    >
    > These days, you may find only one or two homes per transformer to
    > keep distribution problems from affecting as many homes. If a branch
    > breaks a wire and shorts a single transformer, it only affects a couple
    > homes. If a transformer goes bad a smaller crew can replace it, and if
    > a new home is built, it is easier to supply the extra electricity.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Merry Christmas!
    >
    > Take care, and God bless.
    > Michael A. Terrell
    > Central Florida


    Michael,

    *That* I did not know. Thanks for the correction.

    When I was a boy we had 127V. I remember the day it all has to change to
    220V. We had to do without washing machine and vacuum cleaner for some days
    as they has to be modified.

    Some twenty years later I lived - with eight other students - in a house
    that used two 127V phases to become 220V. As only one hot was monitored by
    the kWh meter some students used (by that time old) 127V equipment to reduce
    their costs.

    Merry Christmas and a happy new year too.

    petrus


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 26, 2003
    #13
  14. Sanjay

    Mjolinor Guest

    "Michael A. Terrell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Richard Crowley wrote:
    > >
    > > In 50 years up and down the west coast of the US, I have
    > > NEVER seen 3-phase power in a residence. Even in large
    > > multi-million dollar houses, they have conventional 240V
    > > with grounded center-tap (120V branch circuits). Only 3-
    > > phase I've seen was for shop/farm power.

    >
    > I readily admit its not common, but there is a home near Mt Dora,
    > Florida with three phase power. They also have a large Onan three phase
    > electric start generator. I worked on several systems there, including
    > cleaning the control wiring on the generator. It was owned by the family
    > who owned and ran Sullivan's nurseries, and Sullivan's Trailway Lounge
    > in Orlando. The property had three, three phase feeds. One for the main
    > house, and two for several eight inch wells. They also had a pair of
    > large diesel powered water pumps to provide water to the nursery, if the
    > power was out very long. No, the office wasn't in the main house. It was
    > on the feed to the main well pumps, quite a ways from the house. The
    > property was probably over 3000 acres. They had bought a number of farms
    > around their large home to build their nursery over the years, and they
    > were in the process of turning it into a golf course and a large
    > subdivision when the owner died.
    >
    > There are other large homes in what was rural areas with three phase
    > at the street, and they have it in their homes. There is no problem
    > getting three phase service in Florida, if it passes your property. Its
    > up to the utility and the state regulations to decide if you can have
    > three phase. I can't get it here at home because this small subdivision
    > is on a single phase. It doesn't matter, because I don't have anything a
    > small three phase converter couldn't handle. The mother of a friend of
    > mine was a local office manager for Florida Power. She could make a
    > couple calls and get any answer you needed. Some were rather
    > interesting, compared to the way they ran things in SW Ohio.
    > --
    > Merry Christmas!
    >
    > Take care, and God bless.
    > Michael A. Terrell
    > Central Florida


    Were these three phase LV feeds? I have worked a lot at FPL and never seen
    an LV feed at three phase, in fact I have never seen a three phase 11kv /
    110-0-110 at FPL at all either in storage, training or transformer
    rebuilding yards.
     
    Mjolinor, Dec 27, 2003
    #14
  15. "Richard Crowley" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    >
    > "Michael A. Terrell" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Thinker wrote:
    > > >
    > > > The ONLY 3 phase motors in a home in North America are the drive
    > > > motors in you computer disks!

    > >
    > > Maybe in a trailer park, or an older subdivision, but I have been in a
    > > number of homes with three phase power for the air conditioning,
    > > commercial grade kitchen equipment, and some had an elevator from the
    > > basement, to the first and second floors. BTW, they didn't have a
    > > personal computer in the house.
    > >
    > > It is one thing to say that residential 3-Phase isn't common, but
    > > quite another to make a blanket statement that it doesn't exist at all.

    >
    > In 50 years up and down the west coast of the US, I have
    > NEVER seen 3-phase power in a residence. Even in large
    > multi-million dollar houses, they have conventional 240V
    > with grounded center-tap (120V branch circuits). Only 3-
    > phase I've seen was for shop/farm power.
    >
    >


    Which only shows the world to be a little bit larger then the US west coast.
    We have three phase all over the country although most common households are
    connected to one phase only. The day I need more then 5kW I can ask for
    three phase and I'll get it. They may even refuse to deliver more then 5kW
    on a single phase as it makes load balancing more difficult. So only small
    companies or offices do *not* have three phases. (That 5kW may have been
    raised lately to 6 - or 7.5kW as they try to standardise the mains over
    whole the EC.)

    petrus


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    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 27, 2003
    #15
  16. Sanjay

    Myron Samila Guest

    3phase residential

    Our entire residential city grid isn't even wired for 3phase here in TORONTO!! (not the
    GTA, just surrounding areas).

    The transformers on the street are 1phase 220V, there is not 3 phase power running on the
    poles, that would have a huge effect on balancing the phases.

    Comes from the step down from the transformer station as 1ph.

    --
    Myron Samila
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Samila Racing
    http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    "Michael A. Terrell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Richard Crowley wrote:
    > >
    > > In 50 years up and down the west coast of the US, I have
    > > NEVER seen 3-phase power in a residence. Even in large
    > > multi-million dollar houses, they have conventional 240V
    > > with grounded center-tap (120V branch circuits). Only 3-
    > > phase I've seen was for shop/farm power.

    >
    > I readily admit its not common, but there is a home near Mt Dora,
    > Florida with three phase power. They also have a large Onan three phase
    > electric start generator. I worked on several systems there, including
    > cleaning the control wiring on the generator. It was owned by the family
    > who owned and ran Sullivan's nurseries, and Sullivan's Trailway Lounge
    > in Orlando. The property had three, three phase feeds. One for the main
    > house, and two for several eight inch wells. They also had a pair of
    > large diesel powered water pumps to provide water to the nursery, if the
    > power was out very long. No, the office wasn't in the main house. It was
    > on the feed to the main well pumps, quite a ways from the house. The
    > property was probably over 3000 acres. They had bought a number of farms
    > around their large home to build their nursery over the years, and they
    > were in the process of turning it into a golf course and a large
    > subdivision when the owner died.
    >
    > There are other large homes in what was rural areas with three phase
    > at the street, and they have it in their homes. There is no problem
    > getting three phase service in Florida, if it passes your property. Its
    > up to the utility and the state regulations to decide if you can have
    > three phase. I can't get it here at home because this small subdivision
    > is on a single phase. It doesn't matter, because I don't have anything a
    > small three phase converter couldn't handle. The mother of a friend of
    > mine was a local office manager for Florida Power. She could make a
    > couple calls and get any answer you needed. Some were rather
    > interesting, compared to the way they ran things in SW Ohio.
    > --
    > Merry Christmas!
    >
    > Take care, and God bless.
    > Michael A. Terrell
    > Central Florida
     
    Myron Samila, Dec 27, 2003
    #16
  17. Sanjay

    Myron Samila Guest

    127 Volts and 208 Volts

    In Canada, we step down using a three phase isolation transformer usually stepping down
    from 600V


    Three Phase you get a potential of 208Volts between two phases
    Three Phase you get a potential of 110Volts between Ground & Hot of any phase
    Single Phase you get a potential of 220Volts between Phase A and Phase B
    Single Phase you get a potential of 120Volts between Ground & Hot of any phase

    This is assuming a step down transformer is used for regular low voltage AC requirements.

    What I meant to say about European voltage in *ALMOST* every respect is that there is a
    220V+ potential between Hot and Ground, I thought that was pretty clear. Valencia Spain
    is 230V, I was there recently working with a design team of a professional amplifier, then
    in the UK, 240V was used as the primaries and the amp had problems, They were using a 115
    O 115V transformer, it worked on 'any voltage'. Meaning, we could wire it here for 120V,
    but, we were over voltage because the primaries were wired for 115V. Same with the UK,
    across the two 115V primaries, instead of feeding 230V, they were feeding it 240V, blowing
    up components in the amp.

    --
    Myron Samila
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Samila Racing
    http://204.101.251.229/myronx19
    "petrus bitbyter" <> wrote in message
    news:%NXGb.345256$...
    >
    > "Michael A. Terrell" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:...
    > >
    > > No, Petrus. A typical North American home uses 240 VAC center tapped
    > > single phase with the center tap grounded. Low power circuits are 120
    > > VAC, while larger items are on dedicated 240 VAC circuits. If three
    > > phase passes your house, it is to allow the utility company to select a
    > > single phase for load balancing.
    > >
    > > When I was a kid I grew up in a subdivision of identical houses. The
    > > main road had three phase, with a single pair of wires going down each
    > > street, and a power transformer for every four houses.
    > >
    > > These days, you may find only one or two homes per transformer to
    > > keep distribution problems from affecting as many homes. If a branch
    > > breaks a wire and shorts a single transformer, it only affects a couple
    > > homes. If a transformer goes bad a smaller crew can replace it, and if
    > > a new home is built, it is easier to supply the extra electricity.
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Merry Christmas!
    > >
    > > Take care, and God bless.
    > > Michael A. Terrell
    > > Central Florida

    >
    > Michael,
    >
    > *That* I did not know. Thanks for the correction.
    >
    > When I was a boy we had 127V. I remember the day it all has to change to
    > 220V. We had to do without washing machine and vacuum cleaner for some days
    > as they has to be modified.
    >
    > Some twenty years later I lived - with eight other students - in a house
    > that used two 127V phases to become 220V. As only one hot was monitored by
    > the kWh meter some students used (by that time old) 127V equipment to reduce
    > their costs.
    >
    > Merry Christmas and a happy new year too.
    >
    > petrus
    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20-12-2003
    >
     
    Myron Samila, Dec 27, 2003
    #17
  18. "Richard Crowley" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    > > "Richard Crowley" schreef ...
    > > > In 50 years up and down the west coast of the US, I have
    > > > NEVER seen 3-phase power in a residence. Even in large
    > > > multi-million dollar houses, they have conventional 240V
    > > > with grounded center-tap (120V branch circuits). Only 3-
    > > > phase I've seen was for shop/farm power.

    >
    >
    > "petrus bitbyter" wrote ...
    > > Which only shows the world to be a little bit larger then the
    > > US west coast. We have three phase all over the country
    > > although most common households are connected to one
    > > phase only.

    >
    > Of course, same here (and likely most places). But I thought
    > we were discussing what was actually WIRED INTO THE
    > HOUSE. Although it is not necessarily common deep
    > within large residential areas to see all three phases going
    > down the street past your home. You can save money by not
    > distributing what you will likely never need in the forseeable
    > future.
    >
    > Reminds me of the story of the power utility guy giving
    > his friend directions to his house. Went something like...
    > "Follow the 38K feeder to the fourth stepdown, turn
    > left and follow the 19K branch to the second crossover,
    > turn right, two blocks past the isolation switch, and I live
    > at the third transformer."
    >
    >

    Some things are really different here. I have an old radio from the fifties
    that has a voltage carousel with eight different mains voltages ranging from
    110V to 240V. That's where we came from. The mains were standardized to 220V
    over the years but there are still local exceptions. During the last few
    years the voltage was slowly raised to 230V and it is said to become 240V
    over time.

    Where I live (in the Netherlands) power production and distribution is done
    in a three phase system. For all I know there are no air lines left except
    for >100kV. So a power utility guy will get lost. Local transformers step
    down from 10kV or 25kV to 400/230V. They have to service tens to hundreds of
    houses. The power cable ends up in a house in a sealed black box. There one
    phase is selected and connected to the kWh meter via a 25A fuse. (It may be
    somewhat over 25A these days.) If you are a power user you get three phases.
    For instance, one of our neighbours has an electric cooking-range and has
    three phases. Commonly called "powercurrent". So if someone needs more then
    the usual (~5kW) power for whatever reason they only have to rearange some
    connections and replace the kWh meter for a three phase type. This way they
    can do almost all control and maintenance without digging. Digging is by far
    the most expensive part of the laying of the power grid so they want to do
    it only once.

    petrus


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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    petrus bitbyter, Dec 28, 2003
    #18
  19. Sanjay

    Jim Thompson Guest

    >"Richard Crowley" <> schreef in bericht
    >news:...
    >> > "Richard Crowley" schreef ...
    >> > > In 50 years up and down the west coast of the US, I have
    >> > > NEVER seen 3-phase power in a residence. Even in large
    >> > > multi-million dollar houses, they have conventional 240V
    >> > > with grounded center-tap (120V branch circuits). Only 3-
    >> > > phase I've seen was for shop/farm power.

    >>
    >>

    [snip]

    I had three-phase power in the first house I bought in Scottsdale,
    Arizona (in 1964).

    It was in an area bounded by 68th St. on the west, Scottsdale Rd.on
    the east, Oak St. on the south, and Thomas Rd. on the north.

    Had a nice three-phase Goettl air conditioner that purred like a
    kitten ;-)

    ...Jim Thompson
    --
    | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
    | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
    | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
    | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
    | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
    | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

    I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
     
    Jim Thompson, Dec 28, 2003
    #19
  20. "petrus bitbyter" <> writes:

    > Most countries in western Europe used 220V for a long time. These days it
    > has been raised to 230V.


    This is true.

    > It is said that it eventualy will become 240V.


    To my knowledge there is no plans for the voltage to
    become 240V in Europe. 230V is the standardized voltage
    throughout Europe.

    > The voltage between two phases raised accordingly.


    Yes. 230V from neutral to phase and 400V between phases nowadays.

    --
    Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
    Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
    http://www.epanorama.net/
     
    Tomi Holger Engdahl, Dec 29, 2003
    #20
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