High-side MOSFET driver without bootstrap?

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Hello,

    I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    extra supply charge pump, if possible).

    Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    don't seem to have anything...

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #1
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  2. Tilmann Reh

    Robert Baer Guest

    Tilmann Reh wrote:
    >
    > Hello,
    >
    > I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    > equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    > since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    > extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >
    > Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    > N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    > don't seem to have anything...
    >
    > --
    > Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    > Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    > http://www.autometer.de


    ...and you will not find it.
    Robert Baer, Jul 1, 2004
    #2
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  3. Tilmann Reh

    Daniel Haude Guest

    On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:03:19 +0200,
    Tilmann Reh <> wrote
    in Msg. <cc0crh$rl9$>

    > I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    > equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    > since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    > extra supply charge pump, if possible).


    Well, the (in your case, permanent) high-side gate voltage (with a
    little current) has to come from somewhere, doesn't it? Let's consider
    some options:

    1) bootstrap capacitor (not possible for permanent on)

    2) charge pump (you don't want it)

    3) isolated DC/DC converter

    4) Extra small power supply running from mains voltage

    5) lithium battery

    6) Solar cells

    If you don't care about switching speed, power dissipation or top output
    voltage I guess an optocoupler and a source follower could be used...

    --Daniel

    --
    "With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)
    Daniel Haude, Jul 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Daniel Haude schrieb:

    >> I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    >> equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    >> since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    >> extra supply charge pump, if possible).

    >
    > Well, the (in your case, permanent) high-side gate voltage (with a
    > little current) has to come from somewhere, doesn't it? Let's consider
    > some options:
    >
    > 1) bootstrap capacitor (not possible for permanent on)
    >
    > 2) charge pump (you don't want it)


    I don't want it as additional components, if possible.
    By function, a charge pump is exactly what I need. I would
    like to use a driver IC that has this CP integrated.

    > 3) isolated DC/DC converter
    > 4) Extra small power supply running from mains voltage
    > 5) lithium battery
    > 6) Solar cells


    All not usable in this case.

    > If you don't care about switching speed, power dissipation or top output
    > voltage I guess an optocoupler and a source follower could be used...


    I need high current (10A) and minimum voltage drop in ON state,
    that's why I will use a high-current N-channel FET (8 mOhm ON).
    No alternatives (except for mechanical relays, which I must
    replace here).

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #4
  5. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Robert Baer schrieb:

    >> I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    >> equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    >> since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    >> extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >>
    >> Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    >> N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    >> don't seem to have anything...

    >
    > ...and you will not find it.


    You already searched that before?

    (Seems like I'll have to build the CP by myself then. Good luck
    that a 555 will do :)).

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #5
  6. Tilmann Reh

    Jamie Morken Guest

    "Tilmann Reh" <> wrote in message
    news:cc0crh$rl9$...
    > Hello,
    >
    > I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    > equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    > since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    > extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >
    > Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    > N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    > don't seem to have anything...


    I am not sure if it is what you need but you may want to check out the
    HIP4081.
    www.intersil.com/data/tb/tb321.pdf

    cheers,
    Jamie

    www.intersil.com/data/tb/tb321.pdf
    >
    > --
    > Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    > Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    > http://www.autometer.de
    Jamie Morken, Jul 1, 2004
    #6
  7. Hi,
    Tilmann Reh schrieb:

    > Hello,
    >
    > I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    > equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    > since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    > extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >
    > Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    > N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    > don't seem to have anything...
    >

    I'm not really sure that I understand the problem right. But Perhaps
    Infineon Profet is the right solution. They are used to replace relays
    in car industry.

    http://www.infineon.com/cmc_upload/migrated_files/document_files/Application_Notes/baba96a1.pdf
    Regards
    Rüdiger
    --
    http://www.conelek.com/
    Ruediger Kluge, Jul 1, 2004
    #7
  8. Tilmann Reh wrote...
    > Robert Baer wrote:
    >> Tilmann Reh wrote...
    >>>
    >>> I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    >>> equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    >>> since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    >>> extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >>>
    >>> Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    >>> N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET
    >>> drivers) don't seem to have anything...

    >>
    >> ...and you will not find it.

    >
    > You already searched that before?


    There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!

    There are also some nice p-channel high-side switch drivers.

    And there are quite a nice assortment of parts that include the
    switching MOSFET or BJT, which allows them to have current limit
    and thermal-limit features, complete with fault-reporting outputs.

    Let me ask, how big is your MOSFET, fast does your switching time
    need to be, and how many times per second do you need to switch it?

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 1, 2004
    #8
  9. Jamie Morken wrote...
    >
    > Tilmann Reh wrote ...
    >>
    >> I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    >> equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    >> since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    >> extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >>
    >> Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    >> N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    >> don't seem to have anything...

    >
    > I am not sure if it is what you need but you may want to check out
    > the HIP4081. www.intersil.com/data/tb/tb321.pdf


    The '4081 is one of my favorite parts, and I've written about its
    virtues several times here on s.e.d. But sadly it does require a
    continuous switching signal to maintain its high-side bias supply,
    just like the IR2117, etc., so it won't help Tilman in his search.

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Ruediger Kluge schrieb:

    >> I am looking for a high-side MOSFET driver that is functionally
    >> equivalent to the IR2117/18, but does not use a bootstrap supply
    >> since I need a static on/off switch (and would like to avoid the
    >> extra supply charge pump, if possible).
    >>
    >> Does anyone know of a "self-supplying" high-side driver for
    >> N-channel power FETs? IRF and Intersil (first stops for FET drivers)
    >> don't seem to have anything...
    >>

    > I'm not really sure that I understand the problem right. But Perhaps
    > Infineon Profet is the right solution. They are used to replace relays
    > in car industry.


    Thanks.
    I know these parts, but was not aware of the high-current types yet.
    Seems like the BTS660 is the perfect choice. I'll check for cost
    and availability...

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #10
  11. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Winfield Hill schrieb:

    > There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    > with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    > stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!


    That's a common problem... and increasing with age :).

    > There are also some nice p-channel high-side switch drivers.


    P-FETs rarely have the required RDSon (below 10 mOhm).
    And are hard to get, too.

    > And there are quite a nice assortment of parts that include the
    > switching MOSFET or BJT, which allows them to have current limit
    > and thermal-limit features, complete with fault-reporting outputs.


    Yes, but commonly not for the specs I need.

    > Let me ask, how big is your MOSFET, fast does your switching time
    > need to be, and how many times per second do you need to switch it?


    I was thinking about the IRF3205, which is an 8 mOhm 55V type.
    Switching time is not critical, as it will be used only to turn
    on and off the supply to some power drivers every now and then
    (say, each few seconds).

    Ruediger Kluge pointed me to the high-current PROFETs from Infineon,
    seems like they're the way to go. If they are obtainable...
    (Otherwise, using the 555 as charge pump, a few transistors
    for level shifting and gate driving, and the IRF3205 as switch
    will give a pretty cheap and reliable solution too. It's just
    more parts...)

    Thanks,

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #11
  12. Tilmann Reh wrote...
    >
    > Winfield Hill wrote:
    >
    >> There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    >> with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    >> stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!

    >
    > That's a common problem... and increasing with age :).


    And with an increasing number of data sheets, I'm up to 18395 now.

    >> And there are quite a nice assortment of parts that include the
    >> switching MOSFET or BJT, which allows them to have current limit
    >> and thermal-limit features, complete with fault-reporting outputs.

    >
    > Yes, but commonly not for the specs I need.
    >
    >> Let me ask, how big is your MOSFET, fast does your switching time
    >> need to be, and how many times per second do you need to switch it?

    >
    > I was thinking about the IRF3205, which is an 8 mOhm 55V type.
    > Switching time is not critical, as it will be used only to turn
    > on and off the supply to some power drivers every now and then
    > (say, each few seconds).
    >
    > Ruediger Kluge pointed me to the high-current PROFETs from Infineon,
    > seems like they're the way to go. If they are obtainable...


    Yes, see my assertion above. I've stocked our parts drawers with
    five different PROFET BTS-series switches, obtained from DigiKey.
    E.g., the BTS650 is rated 6 milliohm max, and is stocked at $6.14
    each, $3.40 qty 1k. There are lower-cost parts with higher Ron.

    What are you switching, and how high is the supply voltage?

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 1, 2004
    #12
  13. Tilmann Reh

    Daniel Haude Guest

    On 1 Jul 2004 04:03:03 -0700,
    Winfield Hill <> wrote
    in Msg. <>

    > The '4081 is one of my favorite parts, and I've written about its
    > virtues several times here on s.e.d. But sadly it does require a
    > continuous switching signal to maintain its high-side bias supply,
    > just like the IR2117, etc., so it won't help Tilman in his search.


    Huh? Fifth item on the data sheet "Features" list: "On-Chip Charge-Pump
    and Bootstrap Upper Bias Supply"

    While the data sheet and app note don't specifically stress the point it
    seems that the internal charge pump can supply sufficient voltage and
    current for indefinite intervals. In fact it seems possible to run the
    408x without bootstrap diode and cap of course at the price of
    "unacceptably long" turn-on time.

    I had thought that Tilman, for whatever reason, didn't want any kind of
    charge pump (integrated or not), thus my list of intentionally idiotic
    gate power supplies.

    --Daniel

    --
    "With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)
    Daniel Haude, Jul 1, 2004
    #13
  14. Tilmann Reh

    Daniel Haude Guest

    On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:41:25 +0200,
    Tilmann Reh <> wrote
    in Msg. <cc0t4v$gpd$>

    > I was thinking about the IRF3205, which is an 8 mOhm 55V type.
    > Switching time is not critical, as it will be used only to turn
    > on and off the supply to some power drivers every now and then
    > (say, each few seconds).


    Then the 4081A with almost no external parts seems a good choice. It has
    a built-in charge pump and is good for up to 80V positive rail. There
    may be something I'm missing about the charge pump (the data sheet says
    it has one, Win Hill thinks it doesn't or isn't fit for the task -- see
    elsethread).

    --Daniel


    --
    "With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)
    Daniel Haude, Jul 1, 2004
    #14
  15. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Winfield Hill schrieb:

    >>> There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    >>> with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    >>> stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!

    >>
    >> That's a common problem... and increasing with age :).

    >
    > And with an increasing number of data sheets, I'm up to 18395 now.


    Agreed. (I didn't count the number of DS in my about 12 m of
    data books and 1 m of CDs... Is that number exact? :))

    >> Ruediger Kluge pointed me to the high-current PROFETs from Infineon,
    >> seems like they're the way to go. If they are obtainable...

    >
    > Yes, see my assertion above. I've stocked our parts drawers with
    > five different PROFET BTS-series switches, obtained from DigiKey.
    > E.g., the BTS650 is rated 6 milliohm max, and is stocked at $6.14
    > each, $3.40 qty 1k. There are lower-cost parts with higher Ron.
    >
    > What are you switching, and how high is the supply voltage?


    I am switching the complete power stages of a special industrial
    control unit (one of our custom specific products), rated 24V 10A.
    I have to deal with supply peaks of about 50V (limited by TVS).
    The BTS 660 seems to be perfect, it is available, and affordable
    (about 2.40 Euro in small quantities). I already ordered samples.

    (BTS 555 would be a real boomer, but it's more expensive.)

    Thanks,

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #15
  16. Tilmann Reh

    Tilmann Reh Guest

    Daniel Haude schrieb:

    > Then the 4081A with almost no external parts seems a good choice. It has
    > a built-in charge pump and is good for up to 80V positive rail. There
    > may be something I'm missing about the charge pump (the data sheet says
    > it has one, Win Hill thinks it doesn't or isn't fit for the task -- see
    > elsethread).


    It would probably work, but it's waste (it's a full bridge driver),
    and so it costs more than the BTS 660 (which already includes
    a powerful FET).

    I think the ProFET is the perfect solution here.
    I just wasn't aware of these high-current types (have been using
    smaller ones for years).

    --
    Dipl.-Ing. Tilmann Reh
    Autometer GmbH Siegen - Elektronik nach Maß.
    http://www.autometer.de
    Tilmann Reh, Jul 1, 2004
    #16
  17. Tilmann Reh wrote...
    >
    > Winfield Hill schrieb:
    >
    >>>> There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    >>>> with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    >>>> stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!
    >>>
    >>> That's a common problem... and increasing with age :).

    >>
    >> And with an increasing number of data sheets, I'm up to 18395 now.

    >
    > Agreed. (I didn't count the number of DS in my about 12 m of
    > data books and 1 m of CDs... Is that number exact? :))


    It was earlier this morning. It's the number of data-sheet files
    in my computer's "Companies-Semi" directory, further organized by
    company names. It has grown a bit, and now stands at 18434 files.

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 1, 2004
    #17
  18. "Winfield Hill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Tilmann Reh wrote...
    > >
    > > Winfield Hill schrieb:
    > >
    > >>>> There are several good n-channel MOSFET high-side switch drivers
    > >>>> with internal supply generators out there. I have their datasheets
    > >>>> stored in my computer; now if I can just recall their part numbers!
    > >>>
    > >>> That's a common problem... and increasing with age :).
    > >>
    > >> And with an increasing number of data sheets, I'm up to 18395 now.

    > >
    > > Agreed. (I didn't count the number of DS in my about 12 m of
    > > data books and 1 m of CDs... Is that number exact? :))

    >
    > It was earlier this morning. It's the number of data-sheet files
    > in my computer's "Companies-Semi" directory, further organized by
    > company names. It has grown a bit, and now stands at 18434 files.
    >

    With such a large collection - one would think it would be nice to have a
    website with all the datasheets. Now thats storage costs is ever decreasing
    maybe one day some nice guy/woman is going to upload it all

    I myself am only up to 1722 (607MB) by now

    Cheers

    Klaus
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund, Jul 1, 2004
    #18
  19. Tilmann Reh wrote...
    >
    > Daniel Haude schrieb:
    >
    >> Then the 4081A with almost no external parts seems a good choice. It
    >> has a built-in charge pump and is good for up to 80V positive rail.
    >> There may be something I'm missing about the charge pump (the data
    >> sheet says it has one, Win Hill thinks it doesn't or isn't fit for
    >> the task -- see elsethread).

    >
    > It would probably work, but it's waste (it's a full bridge driver),
    > and so it costs more than the BTS 660 (which already includes
    > a powerful FET).


    No, the "charge pump" in the '4080 series works like most other chips,
    and only charges an external capacitor (through an external diode) on
    each cycle of the driver IC. So if it's continuously on, the charge
    drains away and then a sad end to the story. You need a part with an
    internal oscillator and charge-pump switch. There are a few such parts.

    Or you can use one of IR's unusual "Photovoltaic Isolator" (an IR LED
    with a stack of photodiodes), like the PVI5033. This part provides a
    slow 5uA gate turn-on current (which means it takes a few ms to switch
    large FETs), but has a special circuit to rapidly discharge the FET's
    gate capacitance for a "fast" 400us turn off.

    > I think the ProFET is the perfect solution here.
    > I just wasn't aware of these high-current types (have been using
    > smaller ones for years).


    They're amazing, especially the elusive BTS550 with its best-in-class
    220A current limit. But you should double-check the operating-voltage
    specs and consider the time-duration of your over-voltage events.

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 2, 2004
    #19
  20. Tilmann Reh

    R.Legg Guest

    "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund" <> wrote in message news:<40e48dcc$0$264$>...

    > With such a large collection - one would think it would be nice to have a
    > website with all the datasheets. Now thats storage costs is ever decreasing
    > maybe one day some nice guy/woman is going to upload it all
    >
    > I myself am only up to 1722 (607MB) by now


    14K files in 3.5G here.

    There's no end to this rubbish - you never have the info you need for
    the next project.

    That's what the mfr's websites are for.

    RL
    R.Legg, Jul 2, 2004
    #20
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