Heat a Two Car Garage -- Quartz Heaters

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by W. Watson, Dec 2, 2006.

  1. W. Watson

    W. Watson Guest

    I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
    happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
    driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
    think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
    store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
    more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
    quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.

    Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
    (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
    Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
    --
    "I have made this letter [e-mail] a rather long one, only
    because I didn't have the lesiure to make it shorter."
    -- Blaise Pascal
    Web Page: <home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews>
     
    W. Watson, Dec 2, 2006
    #1
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  2. W. Watson

    Phil Allison Guest

    "W. Watson"
    >
    > I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    > warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not
    > entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I
    > wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to
    > get more fuel. I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at
    > the local h/w store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about
    > them. Are they more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used
    > two Holmes large quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm.
    > Comments.



    ** Firstly - it is very dangerous to use a portable kerosene or propane
    heater in an enclosed space - but perfectly safe to use an electric one
    since it creates NO hydrocarbon fumes or CO2 gass.

    Electric heaters all have inherently the same conversion efficiency =
    100% - ie all the electrical energy is converted into heat. One with
    fans will spread the heat around better, ones that only radiate will warm
    what is in front of them better.

    How much heat you need depends entirly on the size and construction of the
    garage, plus how well insulated it is. The fact that you can pretty much
    seal the place up tight with electric heaters inside means mush less heat is
    needed than with fuel heaters that require the space to have good
    ventilation.

    Another issue is the amount of electric power available in the garage - it
    may not be enough for 2 large heaters unless additional circuits are
    installed.




    ........ Phil
     
    Phil Allison, Dec 2, 2006
    #2
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  3. W. Watson

    Bob Guest

    W. Watson wrote:

    > I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    > warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
    > happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
    > driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
    > think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
    > store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
    > more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
    > quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.


    Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
    chemical
    energy.

    Here the cost of heating a home with electricy is far higher than using
    piped
    gas. I'm fairly certain electric heating is also more expensive to run
    than
    bottled gas unless your transportation costs are unusually high.
    I can't be bothered to search for figures right now.

    Bob
     
    Bob, Dec 2, 2006
    #3
  4. W. Watson

    Phil Allison Guest

    "Bob"

    >
    > Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
    > chemical energy.



    ** Bollocks.

    The domestic tariffs for gas supply and electric power, when based on
    heating effect in MJ or kWh, are very similar in most places. 1 MJ =
    0.28 kWh.


    > Here the cost of heating a home with electricy is far higher than using
    > piped gas.



    ** Go nothing to do with using a portable fuel heater in a garage -
    dickhead.


    > I'm fairly certain ...



    ** No you are not.


    > I can't be bothered to search for figures right now.



    ** Then shut up and **** off.



    ....... Phil
     
    Phil Allison, Dec 2, 2006
    #4
  5. "W. Watson" <> wrote in message
    news:Gz4ch.5544$...
    > I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
    > store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
    > more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
    > quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.


    The big advantage of these radiators is that you can get warm without
    heating the air or the contents of the garage. Compare the cost of
    electricity with that of gas etc. but I suspect you will find that for an
    un-insulated garage the quartz radiators are more efficient and safer. We
    just had 2 boys die trying to refuel a generator in a garage - carbon
    monoxide got them.
     
    Homer J Simpson, Dec 2, 2006
    #5
  6. W. Watson wrote:

    > I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes
    > it warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's
    > not entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his
    > shoes, I wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few
    > days or week to get more fuel. I think he might be better off with
    > electric. I checked at the local h/w store, and they have a quart
    > heater. Don't know much about them. Are they more efficient than
    > non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large quartz headers
    > (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.
    >
    > Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
    > (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
    > Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet




    Hi there!


    I guess he have a car.

    A fitting oven, burned by coal or better wood. Heats nice and the costs
    are the lowest. Can be fueled various... paper, wood, pellets, coal,
    koks etc...


    If he likes it warm.


    Best Regards,

    Daniel Mandic

    P.S.: can be outworked to a full pipe system... so he have something to
    do meanwhile, too. :) (To reduce to oven-dimensions even more!)
     
    Daniel Mandic, Dec 2, 2006
    #6
  7. W. Watson

    W. Watson Guest

    Perhaps a little Googling helps here.

    From <http://www.ecohousewares.com/faq/PortableElectricHeaters.html#pe2>
    A Radiant Heater is the second type of technology where heat is emitted from
    infrared radiation. Radiant heaters encompass metal-rod and *quartz* units.
    The surface can range from a glowing panel of a gas heater, a concrete slab,
    a bar radiator, or an open fire. This heat directly warms people and objects
    in the room, rather than warming the air. Radiant heaters are not
    recommended for a large space. They are also ideal for basements and garages
    since they are good at spot heating.

    [I guess they don't consider a garage a large space. Use of spot heating.]

    Quartz Heaters use electric elements packed inside a quartz glass tube that
    radiates heat to warm people and objects. These are best used for spot
    heating. Sometimes they can be a fire hazard because they are fragile and
    easily broken.

    And these
    <http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/home-garden/news/november-2006/heating-your-home--safely-11-06/overview/1106_heat_ov.htm>.
    <http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/463.html>
     
    W. Watson, Dec 2, 2006
    #7
  8. "W. Watson" <> wrote in message
    news:6pech.5692$...

    > Quartz Heaters use electric elements packed inside a quartz glass tube
    > that radiates heat to warm people and objects. These are best used for
    > spot heating. Sometimes they can be a fire hazard because they are fragile
    > and easily broken.


    They're best mounted up high. Useful for a church, say, used once a week for
    a few hours but very large and hard to heat.
     
    Homer J Simpson, Dec 3, 2006
    #8
  9. W. Watson

    Skeptic Guest

    Off Topic but Related

    Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a heat
    pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at temperatures
    above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use gas. I asked
    him if that were true, why not just use heating elements instead of
    resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were actually more
    efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your post that
    electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the salesman's
    explanation. Was I wrong or was he?


    "Phil Allison" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Bob"
    >
    >>
    >> Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
    >> chemical energy.

    >
    >
    > ** Bollocks.
    >
    > The domestic tariffs for gas supply and electric power, when based on
    > heating effect in MJ or kWh, are very similar in most places. 1 MJ =
    > 0.28 kWh.
    >
    >
    >> Here the cost of heating a home with electricy is far higher than using
    >> piped gas.

    >
    >
    > ** Go nothing to do with using a portable fuel heater in a garage -
    > dickhead.
    >
    >
    >> I'm fairly certain ...

    >
    >
    > ** No you are not.
    >
    >
    >> I can't be bothered to search for figures right now.

    >
    >
    > ** Then shut up and **** off.
    >
    >
    >
    > ...... Phil
    >
    >
     
    Skeptic, Dec 3, 2006
    #9
  10. W. Watson

    Phil Allison Guest

    Re: Off Topic but Related

    "Skeptic"

    > Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a
    > heat pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at
    > temperatures above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use
    > gas. I asked him if that were true, why not just use heating elements
    > instead of resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were
    > actually more efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your
    > post that electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the
    > salesman's explanation. Was I wrong or was he?



    ** Google and Wiki are your friends.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump




    ........ Phil
     
    Phil Allison, Dec 3, 2006
    #10
  11. Re: Off Topic but Related

    "Skeptic" <> wrote in message
    news:artch.10704$-kc.rr.com...
    > Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a
    > heat pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at
    > temperatures above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use
    > gas. I asked him if that were true, why not just use heating elements
    > instead of resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were
    > actually more efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your
    > post that electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the
    > salesman's explanation. Was I wrong or was he?


    You were wrong. Under some circumstances you can get all the heat expected
    from the power used plus twice as much again. You won't achieve this with a
    whole house unit, but it is a very effective solution down to a certain
    temperature. After that you need an alternative source of heat UNLESS you
    have a geothermal heat pump ("Direct Exchange" or "DX" system) which will
    work at any outside temperature but is hard to retrofit to an existing
    house.

    If you don't have ducts in your house a Ductless Split System Air
    Conditioner is very good and can be had in heat pump models.

    http://www.sheltertech.com/ductless_split_a_c__system.htm
     
    Homer J Simpson, Dec 3, 2006
    #11
  12. W. Watson

    Skeptic Guest

    Re: Off Topic but Related

    Thanks to both Phil and Homer. I guess I should have posted here before I
    replaced the unit.

    Skeptic.


    "Homer J Simpson" <> wrote in message
    news:T3uch.15518$YV4.2196@edtnps89...
    >
    > "Skeptic" <> wrote in message
    > news:artch.10704$-kc.rr.com...
    >> Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a
    >> heat pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at
    >> temperatures above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than
    >> use gas. I asked him if that were true, why not just use heating
    >> elements instead of resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps
    >> were actually more efficient than heating elements. Believing the same
    >> as your post that electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't
    >> buy the salesman's explanation. Was I wrong or was he?

    >
    > You were wrong. Under some circumstances you can get all the heat expected
    > from the power used plus twice as much again. You won't achieve this with
    > a whole house unit, but it is a very effective solution down to a certain
    > temperature. After that you need an alternative source of heat UNLESS you
    > have a geothermal heat pump ("Direct Exchange" or "DX" system) which will
    > work at any outside temperature but is hard to retrofit to an existing
    > house.
    >
    > If you don't have ducts in your house a Ductless Split System Air
    > Conditioner is very good and can be had in heat pump models.
    >
    > http://www.sheltertech.com/ductless_split_a_c__system.htm
    >
    >
    >
     
    Skeptic, Dec 3, 2006
    #12
  13. W. Watson

    jasen Guest

    Re: Off Topic but Related

    On 2006-12-03, Skeptic <> wrote:
    > Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a heat
    > pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at temperatures
    > above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use gas. I asked
    > him if that were true, why not just use heating elements instead of
    > resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were actually more
    > efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your post that
    > electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the salesman's
    > explanation. Was I wrong or was he?


    heat pumps steal heat from outside and release it inside, this is how they
    exceed the heating efficiency of 100% efficient resistive heating.

    Bye.
    Jasen
     
    jasen, Dec 4, 2006
    #13
  14. W. Watson

    Dave Guest

    "W. Watson" <> wrote in message
    news:Gz4ch.5544$...
    >I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    >warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not
    >entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I
    >wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to
    >get more fuel. I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at
    >the local h/w store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about
    >them. Are they more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two
    >Holmes large quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.


    First off, you must be in the UK, as that wattage would be prohibitive on a
    115V/15A North American residential circuit. Even at 120V you'd still pull
    15.6A.

    As far as heating ability goes, I've owned several kerosene heaters, they
    tend to be rated 20-25,000 BTU. 1875 watts works out to about 6400 btu's,
    so two of your electrics would put out ~13,000 or just over half of what a
    kerosene heater puts out. Where I live (Canada) kerosene is pretty darn
    cheap compared to electricity.

    Let's face it, folks: kerosene heaters are designed to operate INDOORS. Do
    you think that these things designed for pumping 25,000 btu's per hour into
    the atmosphere outside? It's a HEATER, of course you're going to use it
    inside. I'd venture that the OP's "elderly neighbor" does NOT have an
    airtight garage which could pose a ventilation/asphyxiation problem. I have
    used my kerosene heater in my home and in my garage thousands of times. I
    will qualify that by saying I've always lived in older homes with too much
    ventilation in the winter (read "drafty") BUT there is NOTHING inherently
    wrong with using a kerosene heater indoors.

    Three rules for kerosene:

    1. Never fuel the heater when it's hot
    2. Never fuel the heater indoors
    3. Always buy type 1-K fuel (most pure).

    Personally, I might add a fourth rule:

    4. Light the heater outside. They smoke like a b#st#rd when you first
    light them for the first minute or so.

    Dave
     
    Dave, Dec 6, 2006
    #14
  15. W. Watson

    Don Young Guest

    "Dave" <> wrote in message
    news:bSndh.28128$rv4.8884@edtnps90...
    >
    > "W. Watson" <> wrote in message
    > news:Gz4ch.5544$...
    >>I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    >>warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not
    >>entirely happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I
    >>wouldn't want to driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to
    >>get more fuel. I think he might be better off with electric. I checked at
    >>the local h/w store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about
    >>them. Are they more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used
    >>two Holmes large quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm.
    >>Comments.

    >
    > First off, you must be in the UK, as that wattage would be prohibitive on
    > a 115V/15A North American residential circuit. Even at 120V you'd still
    > pull 15.6A.
    >
    > As far as heating ability goes, I've owned several kerosene heaters, they
    > tend to be rated 20-25,000 BTU. 1875 watts works out to about 6400 btu's,
    > so two of your electrics would put out ~13,000 or just over half of what a
    > kerosene heater puts out. Where I live (Canada) kerosene is pretty darn
    > cheap compared to electricity.
    >
    > Let's face it, folks: kerosene heaters are designed to operate INDOORS.
    > Do you think that these things designed for pumping 25,000 btu's per hour
    > into the atmosphere outside? It's a HEATER, of course you're going to use
    > it inside. I'd venture that the OP's "elderly neighbor" does NOT have an
    > airtight garage which could pose a ventilation/asphyxiation problem. I
    > have used my kerosene heater in my home and in my garage thousands of
    > times. I will qualify that by saying I've always lived in older homes
    > with too much ventilation in the winter (read "drafty") BUT there is
    > NOTHING inherently wrong with using a kerosene heater indoors.
    >
    > Three rules for kerosene:
    >
    > 1. Never fuel the heater when it's hot
    > 2. Never fuel the heater indoors
    > 3. Always buy type 1-K fuel (most pure).
    >
    > Personally, I might add a fourth rule:
    >
    > 4. Light the heater outside. They smoke like a b#st#rd when you first
    > light them for the first minute or so.
    >
    > Dave
    >

    Your fourth rule may or may not be in conflict with my first rule:
    1. Never move the heater when it is burning.

    Don Young
     
    Don Young, Dec 6, 2006
    #15
  16. W. Watson

    Eeyore Guest

    Phil Allison wrote:

    > "Bob"
    >
    > > Last time I looked the cost of electric energy far exceeded the cost of
    > > chemical energy.

    >
    > ** Bollocks.
    >
    > The domestic tariffs for gas supply and electric power, when based on
    > heating effect in MJ or kWh, are very similar in most places. 1 MJ =
    > 0.28 kWh.


    I wish !

    Electricity is ~ 3-4 x times the price per kWh of natural gas here ( UK ).

    Graham
     
    Eeyore, Dec 6, 2006
    #16
  17. W. Watson

    Dave Guest

    "Don Young" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >>

    > Your fourth rule may or may not be in conflict with my first rule:
    > 1. Never move the heater when it is burning.
    >
    > Don Young
    >

    Choose your poison.

    It's not hot when you first light it so you're not going to burn yourself.
    All modern heaters are equipped with tip-over shut-offs in case you should,
    I don't know, trip down a flight of stairs with it.
     
    Dave, Dec 6, 2006
    #17
  18. W. Watson

    terry Guest

    Dave wrote:
    > "Don Young" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > >>

    > > Your fourth rule may or may not be in conflict with my first rule:
    > > 1. Never move the heater when it is burning.
    > >
    > > Don Young
    > >

    > Choose your poison.
    >
    > It's not hot when you first light it so you're not going to burn yourself.
    > All modern heaters are equipped with tip-over shut-offs in case you should,
    > I don't know, trip down a flight of stairs with it.

    ..
    Two comments on this.

    1) If the garage is only in use for a few hours a week the cost of the
    fuel, whether it be kerosene, propane or electricity, may not be a
    major factor or concern. For example a difference, for the colder
    months, of maybe five quid/ ten bucks a week maybe incidental. Perhaps
    a difference for a whole season of 50 to 150 dollars? Electricity is
    convenient and relatively safe; no lighting or pilots, no fumes or
    exhaust (CO) etc. Also in this day and age some stricter environmental
    rules about spilled fuel and/or leaking tanks, oil barrels and or fuel
    lines! Most insurance policies don't cover!
    Electric heaters can be fixed baseboard, or fan directed towards work
    area, or portable with tip-over switches or quartz 'radiant heat'.
    An exhaustive discussion about the relative cost of fuel for something
    that is in use on average for a couple of hours a day ( 30 to 60 hours
    per month?) maybe only academic?
    We have used up to a 4800 watt 230 volt blower heater in attached
    garage and in our boat on cradle next to garage. Calculating that
    whenever we have it on it will cost no more than 50 cents (Canadian)
    per hour; which is usually a rather minor incidental cost compared to
    the repair we are doing and the saving by working on our own
    vehicle/boat! Usually too, except in the coldest weather the heater may
    not run continuously anyway. So if we are out there working on
    something for a couple of winter evenings, say 8 to 10 hours total we
    are talking maybe $4 to $5!

    2) We do have an emergency kerosene heater filled and ready to run in
    the hall closet. However our highly reliable electricity has not failed
    for long enough in recent 3 to 5 years to ever use it. It is the type
    that has to be taken outside to refill. We gave our previous one to a
    daughter whose husband often works off shore and may therefore not be
    home, because that one had a removable tank that could lifted out and
    refilled outside.
    If/when we use our emergency kerosene heater it is placed on a
    noncombustible steel panel near the fireplace, the flue is opened and
    fire extinguisher nearby. Also we never sleep with it burning. Been too
    many CO accidents due to misuse of non vented fuel burning appliances
    inside!
    Including one elderly couple who apparently took their propane barbecue
    inside their house, used up all the oxygen and killed themselves!
     
    terry, Dec 7, 2006
    #18
  19. W. Watson

    Rich Grise Guest

    On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 01:22:46 +0000, W. Watson wrote:

    > I have an elderly neighbor who likes to work in his garage, and likes it
    > warm. He's had a kerosene heater and now a propane heater. He's not entirely
    > happy with the price of the fuel. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to
    > driving back to the h/w store every few days or week to get more fuel. I
    > think he might be better off with electric. I checked at the local h/w
    > store, and they have a quart heater. Don't know much about them. Are they
    > more efficient than non-quarts. The h/w guy said he used two Holmes large
    > quartz headers (1875 watts) to keep his garage warm. Comments.


    Before I'd jump in like that, I'd take a really close look at what either
    one actually costs to run - I've read somewhere that resistance heating is
    the least efficient use of electricity that anybody has yet come up with.

    As long as the ventilation is good so he doesn't get asphyxiated, I'd
    suggest staying with the propane, and get it in bigger tanks; barring
    that, I'd go for a heat pump.

    I've lived in a travel trailer, and, although it was California, we
    still needed heat during the rainy season, but it'd take me well over
    a month to go through 5 gallons of propane; but propane was about a
    buck a gallon at the time, but on the other hand I used it to cook
    and heat water too.

    Good Luck!
    Rich
     
    Rich Grise, Dec 7, 2006
    #19
  20. W. Watson

    Rich Grise Guest

    Re: Off Topic but Related

    On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 05:58:33 +0000, jasen wrote:

    > On 2006-12-03, Skeptic <> wrote:
    >> Recently while replacing my air conditioning unit I opted not to buy a heat
    >> pump to augment my gas furnace. The salesman said that at temperatures
    >> above freezing it was cheaper to operate a heat pump than use gas. I asked
    >> him if that were true, why not just use heating elements instead of
    >> resorting to a heat pump. He said that heat pumps were actually more
    >> efficient than heating elements. Believing the same as your post that
    >> electrical heat was already 100% efficient, I didn't buy the salesman's
    >> explanation. Was I wrong or was he?

    >
    > heat pumps steal heat from outside and release it inside, this is how they
    > exceed the heating efficiency of 100% efficient resistive heating.
    >


    A heat pump works like a fridge, but inside-out. ;-)

    Cheers!
    Rich
     
    Rich Grise, Dec 7, 2006
    #20
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